74 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

BoomDog, on 06 July 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

I think you're dramatically underestimating the advantage of all that range. You do realize the Clan's Medium Pulse Laser has more range than the IS Large Pulse laser?

A better comparison would be two C-MPL vs. one IS-LPL.

Clan DPS=3.80 ... IS DPS=2.75
Clan HPS=2.82 ... IS HPS=2.08
Clan Dur=0.90 ... IS DUR=0.60
Clan Tons=4 ... IS Tons=7
Clan Crit=2 ... IS Crit=2

So you get about 40% more DPS, more range, and 3 extra tons for whatever you want. All for about 30% more heat and a 50% longer burn time.

Sounds about right to me.

C-MPL still loses on the primary, and tenuous, current benefit of pulse lasers: Beam Duration.

At 0.9s, it's nearly as long as standard MLAS or LLAS.

It's not a bad weapon, examined in a vacuum - but the Clan has better options, on mechs that for the most part are more restricted than IS mechs in terms of available/customizable tonnage and available/customizable crit slots.



I'd like to see

cMPL burn time set to 0.6s with Optimal Range = 350m
ISMPL burn time set to 0.3s

cLPL burn time set to 0.6s with Optimal Range set to 500m
ISLPL burn time set to 0.3s

They are still heavier than their respective standard counterparts, with lower range and generally higher heat output.

But inside their optimal range, they have a clear advantage vs. the standards in their burn times.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 July 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[Ovion]

If anyone cares, I updated this, maybe it'll help:

[Xarian]

The best way to balance pulse lasers is to turn them into laser machineguns. One pulse per cycle, instead of 3-4 pulses + cooldown time. Keep the same DPS and weapon size, but decrease the heat production (you're already paying for the upgraded accuracy with lower range and extra tonnage).

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 06 July 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

C-MPL still loses on the primary, and tenuous, current benefit of pulse lasers: Beam Duration.

At 0.9s, it's nearly as long as standard MLAS or LLAS.

It's not a bad weapon, examined in a vacuum - but the Clan has better options, on mechs that for the most part are more restricted than IS mechs in terms of available/customizable tonnage and available/customizable crit slots.



I'd like to see

cMPL burn time set to 0.6s with Optimal Range = 350m
ISMPL burn time set to 0.3s

cLPL burn time set to 0.6s with Optimal Range set to 500m
ISLPL burn time set to 0.3s

They are still heavier than their respective standard counterparts, with lower range and generally higher heat output.

But inside their optimal range, they have a clear advantage vs. the standards in their burn times.

The WubShee would certainly enjoy that.


Though an entirely different mechanic would be nice, rather than just shorter beam lasers.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 06 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Though an entirely different mechanic would be nice, rather than just shorter beam lasers.

I'm not one to hope for miracles.

[Tripzter]

You need to look at the hard facts.. the regular ERLL does 0 damage at the distances of the C-ERLL..If you want to speak about balance, why dont any of the IS Lasers have the range of the C-ERLL?

[Mcgral18]

Tripzter, on 06 July 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

You need to look at the hard facts.. the regular ERLL does 0 damage at the distances of the C-ERLL..If you want to speak about balance, why dont any of the IS Lasers have the range of the C-ERLL?

Why does the isERLL do more damage per tick than the cERLL?


You need to stop ignoring the benefits of a weapon when you mention their downsides.

[Ultimax]

Tripzter, on 06 July 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

You need to look at the hard facts.. the regular ERLL does 0 damage at the distances of the C-ERLL..If you want to speak about balance, why dont any of the IS Lasers have the range of the C-ERLL?

At 800m the IS ER LLAS still does damage (probably about 6 or 7). In fact, at slightly over 1000m it still does half damage.


In my experience it's uncommon to be fighting at 800-1000m in this game for extended periods outside of Alpine.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 06 July 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

At 800m the IS ER LLAS still does damage (probably about 6 or 7). In fact, at slightly over 1000m it still does half damage.


In my experience it's uncommon to be fighting at 800-1000m in this game for extended periods outside of Alpine.

If my math is correct, since it's a linear 2x damage decay at 900M the isERLL would do 6 damage, since it's at exactly 1/3 past its effective range.

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 July 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Koniving]

MischiefSC, on 04 July 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

All pulse lasers, across the board, need something new/different.

I agree.

Pulse lasers in lore were actually laser machine guns, rapidly firing significantly weaker lasers that in the same time frame would (for the Inner Sphere) generate a little extra heat and extra damage over time.

Example if the beam and recharge time of an Inner Sphere medium laser totals 4 seconds with 1 second beam time and 3 seconds recharge, for 5 damage and 3 heat (I prefer TT's heat ratios)... with the 5 damage and 3 heat generated in that one second...
then the Medium Pulse would generate 6 damage and 4 heat within 4 seconds, with the beam time being several spurts of 0.1 or 0.2, rapidly done. Lets assume a pulse 0.2 seconds, and there's 0.4 seconds between pulses. 8 pulses in a pattern of 0.2, 0.4 second cooldown, 0.2, 0.4 second cooldown, it'd be ready to start over again in exactly 4 seconds giving it an identical damage rate of ML, with a higher DPS.

While the damage isn't instant, it's 1.6 seconds of beam time, at 0.5 heat per spurt and 0.75 damage per shot. Much more powerful than an MG, at the tabletop range of 180, and very easy on heat you could pack two to four for some rapid fire, relatively low heat damage for emergencies or for DPS conquest of twisters.

That's stats assuming base damage.
Taking current MWO Inner Sphere MPL, but giving it the timing of a regular ML for damage rating recycles...
That'd be 0.575 heat per 0.2 second burst, for 0.75 damage per shot. So a little hotter, but 220 optimum range instead of 180.

Lets take a Clan Large Pulse Laser and turn it into the lore proper laser machine gun.

First the TT value.
10 heat, 10 damage (hey it's a Clan's version of the regular PPC, it even has just slightly better range!)
Giving it the Clan Large Laser timing of 3.25 recharge + 1.5 beam time (4.75 seconds between damage ratings).
We'll round that out to 4.8 for this.
One shot of 0.2 seconds every 0.4 seconds just like before, giving us a total of 8 pulses/spurts/bursts.
1.25 damage per 0.2 second pulse, 1.25 heat per 0.2 second pulse. In 4.8 seconds that's 10 damage and 10 heat.

Now the MWO value, giving it the 4.8 timing.. Each of the 8 pulses would be 1.475 damage, for 1 heat each.

Remember these are spurts of only 0.2 seconds long, very focused when they do occur, with a recycle rate of 0.4 seconds just like with the MPL. It's a very DPS-like design versions the second long beam time of regular lasers, but every bit able to compete with the likes of the AC/2 and AC/5.

(Some fun facts:

• IS ML: 15 damage in 9 seconds.
  
• Clan ER ML: 21 damage in 9.9 seconds.
  
• IS Large Laser: 27 damage in 9.5 seconds.
  
• Clan ER Large Laser: 33.75 damage in 11 seconds.
  
• IS LPL: 31.8 damage in 8.3 seconds (next shot trigger pull can be done at 11.55 seconds).
  
• Clan LPL: 35.4 damage in 10.4 seconds.
  
• IS AC/2, 30 damage in 10.08 seconds.
  
• IS AC/5, 35 damage in 9.96 seconds.
  
• Clan LB/AC/2, 30 damage in 10.08 seconds.
  
• Clan LB/AC/5, 35 damage in 9.96 seconds.
  
• IS ER/PPC: 30 damage in 8 seconds.
  
• Clan ER PPC: 45 damage in 8 seconds.

Interesting, isn't it?)


Another fun fact:
Laser Anti-Missile System

The Laser AMS is a prototype technology that marries AMS tracking systems with a modified small pulse laser. It exists in both Clan and Inner Sphere variants.
An AMS with MWO's style of pulse laser would be absolutely worthless. But an MG-style pulse laser as per lore? Very useful.

Edited by Koniving, 06 July 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[Ovion]

You realise modified means changed right?
So a LAMS could still work-as-intended.
Brand new to clans, a few years off for IS.
I never especially liked it myself as it generated too much heat.

Not saying the changes to Pulse Lasers wouldn't be a good idea, something different would be nice, just the LAMS argument is a bit falacious.

- Keep up the good work Koniving, always a good read. (I always read that as Konivig instead of coniving for some reason~)

[Angel of Annihilation]

Pjwned, on 05 July 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

It sounds like if you're not taking advantage of the very high range then you should use ER medium lasers instead, which are perfect for that range you seem to be talking about so much. I have a sniperhawk build that does reasonably well in matches and I often find myself firing at enemies that are very far away, and I would kill to have some of that range (and extra damage) even with a longer beam duration, and you can bet I'll be using those lasers when clan mechs are up for c-bills.

The C-ER large laser lets you stay at range and fire some hitscan weapons for good damage (even if the damage is spread out) and there are not many situations where you simply can't sit back at long range unless you get outmaneuvered by the enemy or something, at which point it's not the weapon's fault that you couldn't use it properly.

As for your "real world example" that's not really valid here because this is a video game and it's very possible (and viable) to shoot at enemy mechs from long range. If you don't find yourself firing at long ranges very often (even though, again, it is viable and useful) then don't take souped up long range weapons and then complain they're not the best fit for closer range combat.

The main problem is that if you want to use a clan large pulse laser they're too crappy to be worth considering really, but if your whole complaint is "I'm not taking advantage of this extreme range weapon because I sit at 500m or less away" then use another weapon system instead.

The problem is it doesn't make sense to mount a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL because they put you at a disadvantage over taking a Clan ER PPC as your heavy weapon choice. This is my problem in a nutshell. There is absolutely no reason to take a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL over a Clan ER PPC as it stands now. Also unless your going to stand back at 900m and hope you can get some significant damage on the enemy and actually "contribute" to a battle, then taking a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL over a ER PPC becomes a liability. This is especially so when you consider that at normal combat ranges, IS ER LL, LL and LPLs are superior.

Speaking of those extreme long range uses you mention and actually contributing to a fight. I challenge you to load nothing but Clan ER LL on your mech and stand back at least 800m-1000m from the fight the entire match and see how effective you are and just how much you contribute. Sure you might have alot of assists because it only takes one damage to count as an assist, but just what will your damage numbers be? How many decisive kills will you get? Basically using it properly or not doesn't mean a whole heck of alot if a weapons sucks. I mean using it properly or not, if it sucks, it sucks, simple as that.

As to my real world example, let me put it another way. If lets say 80% of direct fire (target must be in Line of sight) combat takes place between 200-500 meters, 15% takes place at under 200m and only 5% takes place at 500m or longer, this means that any weapon with a range longer than 500m only holds an advantage 5% of the time. Does something that only gives you an advantage 5% out weight the disadvantage of a 50% greater pulse duration and 33% reduction in rate of fire? That is a hell of alot of disadvantage given just to compensate for a feature of relatively little general use?

Lastly, let me sum up my issues. One, there is no reason to take a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL over a Clan ER PPC in 95% of the cases. This acts to limit your potential builds and encourages PPC boating, a concept EVERYONE hates. Two, balance between Clans and the IS is achieved by being different but similar. However, since IS versions are clearly superior in the majority of situations, balance isn't be achieved.

So here we have two balance issues. One is Specific to the Clans, i.e. making one heavy beam weapon roughly balanced against another heavy beam weapon. The Second one is making a Clan weapon equal to a IS weapon. Both can be fixed with just a few modifications.

SOLUTIONS

Clan ER LL - Reduce pulse duration to 1.2 (down from 1.5). Reduce damage to 10. (Down from 11.25). Reduce effective range to 800m (Down from 900).

This makes them still slower firing and longer pulse duration than IS versions and only gives them a slight, but not overwhelming, 125m range advantage to retain the Clan flavor. It also makes them significantly more usable in general combat and alot more competitive against the Clan ER PPC.

Clan LPL - Reduce pulse duration to 0.9 (down from 1.3). Reduce Range to 500m (Down from 600).

This has a similar effect. They become significantly better at doing damage at the cost of a massive reduction in range and heavier weight compared to a Clan ER LL while still being heavier, hotter and shorter range than a IS ER LL. Also overall they become a somewhat comparable option to the Clan ER PPC by being cooler at the cost of range and pin point damage. Also, ironically, the become very similar to an IS Standard Large Laser of all things with just a slight advantage in pulse duration, range and damage at the trade off of still being heavier and hotter than the Standard IS LL.

Clan MPL - Same treatment as the Clan LPL for the most part. Reduction to maybe 0.8 duration to make them just slightly better for concentrated damage as compared to the Clan LPL, range. Range reduced to maybe 350m as well so they don't completely overshadow the IS MPL.

Do this and now you have balanced weapons across the board or as balanced as you can probably get. You will also notice I am not asking for a buff across the board, rather I am asking for them to tune the weapons a bit to make them more generally useful and in the case of the Clan ER LL, less specialized without losing what makes them unique.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 06 July 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I like the idea of making pulse lasers into laser machine guns, but the dps and heat advantages would have to be pretty significant to make up for the extended DoT. Would be awesome to run circles with lights constantly firing pulse lasers and machine guns together.

[RustyBolts]

SmokinDave73, on 05 July 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Clan Large pulse lasers just need a decrease in burn time Clan ER's are fine. A one second burn time would be nice on the large pulse.

I agree. I have had no issues with the CELL. However, the Clan pulse lasers are not worth having unless they lower the burn time.

[Zaptruder]

Pulse lasers have always been dumb in MWO.

Should change the whole mechanic to actual rapid fire pulses that keep going for as long as the fire button is held down.

So instead of beams, you get rapid pulses that chip away at enemy armor.

If they want to make it canon-like (let's just throw that pretense out of the window at this point though), they can always have the heat scale up exponentially per shot fired without sufficient cool down (a low exponent, but still exponential).

[Ultimax]

Sjorpha, on 07 July 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

I like the idea of making pulse lasers into laser machine guns, but the dps and heat advantages would have to be pretty significant to make up for the extended DoT.

Zaptruder, on 07 July 2014 - 04:01 AM, said:

Should change the whole mechanic to actual rapid fire pulses that keep going for as long as the fire button is held down.

Turning Pulse Lasers into "energy machine guns" that require constant time on target to be effective, would make them worse than they are now.


Time on (facing) target needs to be shorter, not longer, to be an effective weapon in this game - and turning the 6/7 ton Large Pulse Lasers into face hugging weapons would be a huge nerf.

[Pjwned]

Viktor Drake, on 06 July 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

The problem is it doesn't make sense to mount a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL because they put you at a disadvantage over taking a Clan ER PPC as your heavy weapon choice. This is my problem in a nutshell. There is absolutely no reason to take a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL over a Clan ER PPC as it stands now. Also unless your going to stand back at 900m and hope you can get some significant damage on the enemy and actually "contribute" to a battle, then taking a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL over a ER PPC becomes a liability. This is especially so when you consider that at normal combat ranges, IS ER LL, LL and LPLs are superior.

Perhaps the biggest reason to take a C-ER LL over a C-ER PPC is the significantly lower heat (8.5 vs 15 which is nearly half as much) as well as the lower tonnage & crit slots. It is also of course possible to completely miss with a PPC and waste all that heat, while firing a laser you're almost guaranteed to get at least some damage, so hey maybe some people (like me, personally, and I know there are other people on the forums) prefer to use the hitscan weapons for those reasons.

Quote

Speaking of those extreme long range uses you mention and actually contributing to a fight. I challenge you to load nothing but Clan ER LL on your mech and stand back at least 800m-1000m from the fight the entire match and see how effective you are and just how much you contribute. Sure you might have alot of assists because it only takes one damage to count as an assist, but just what will your damage numbers be? How many decisive kills will you get? Basically using it properly or not doesn't mean a whole heck of alot if a weapons sucks. I mean using it properly or not, if it sucks, it sucks, simple as that.

It's not too uncommon for me to get 300-400 damage and some component destructions with that "sniperhawk" build I linked, so if I had more range (because, again, I often see a number of opportunities to fire at a mech at ~1000m) and damage with my lasers then I have some reason to believe I could do even better even with the longer beam duration.

Quote

As to my real world example, let me put it another way. If lets say 80% of direct fire (target must be in Line of sight) combat takes place between 200-500 meters, 15% takes place at under 200m and only 5% takes place at 500m or longer, this means that any weapon with a range longer than 500m only holds an advantage 5% of the time. Does something that only gives you an advantage 5% out weight the disadvantage of a 50% greater pulse duration and 33% reduction in rate of fire? That is a hell of alot of disadvantage given just to compensate for a feature of relatively little general use?

I think you're just oversimplifying how useful long range weapons are, and one big reason is you seem to ignore the advantages of safely firing away from where the rest of the fighting is, and it's very possible to get a much better vantage point than the usual peekaboo in closer range which has a number of advantages on its own. Also, you don't seem to acknowledge that the ER PPC has a very high range as well, although it also comes at the cost of very high heat.

Quote

Lastly, let me sum up my issues. One, there is no reason to take a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL over a Clan ER PPC in 95% of the cases. This acts to limit your potential builds and encourages PPC boating, a concept EVERYONE hates. Two, balance between Clans and the IS is achieved by being different but similar. However, since IS versions are clearly superior in the majority of situations, balance isn't be achieved.

There are at least a few reasons to take a laser over a PPC regardless of which tech tree it's from, and as far as IS vs clan lasers I wouldn't say that lower damage, lower range, and lower tonnage & crit slots is "clearly superior" even if the beam duration is shorter, sounds more like actual balance to me than not. Also as far as ER PPC vs ER LL the 15 damage on those PPCs is automatically spread out; of course the damage from lasers is spread out as well, but you don't just look at the PPC and go "WOW LOOK AT ALL THAT CONCENTRATED DAMAGE" and in theory it's possible for the C-ER LL to do more of its damage on 1 spot than the C-ER PPC.

Edited by Pjwned, 07 July 2014 - 06:26 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 07 July 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

Turning Pulse Lasers into "energy machine guns" that require constant time on target to be effective, would make them worse than they are now.


Time on (facing) target needs to be shorter, not longer, to be an effective weapon in this game - and turning the 6/7 ton Large Pulse Lasers into face hugging weapons would be a huge nerf.

Well, that depends on the damage inflicted.

It could be a high heat high damage weapon, but short range. Sort of a UAC version of the laser?

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 07 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Well, that depends on the damage inflicted.

It could be a high heat high damage weapon, but short range. Sort of a UAC version of the laser?

Clan UAC 10 might be a good model for that, but that's 4 shells over 0.5s (or so, I'm not 100% sure).

So I don't really see how that would be so different from what we have now, but just shave down the burn time.

There are a lot of concepts that *could* work, but at this point we can't even get Paul to touch LPLs of any kind - much less re-invent the pulse laser entirely.


I mean off the top of my head, you could have an energy bar like JJ fuel, and pulse lasers could slowly charge that bar up - and then unleash some/all of it in a single go depleting the "tank" so to speak and create a high burst damage, high heat weapon that then follows up with a long-ish cooldown.

But that's really not something I see happening.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 July 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Roadkill]

Viktor Drake, on 06 July 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

There is absolutely no reason to take a Clan ER LL or Clan LPL over a Clan ER PPC as it stands now.

That's funny.

I use CERLL over CERPPC on just about every build I have because their damage per heat and range are so much better. I can carry 4 CERLL on a Summoner and would destroy the equivalent 2 CERPPC build every single time. Both builds are heat limited, but the 4 CERLL build puts out 45 damage vs 30 for the CERPPC. (34 vs 30 heat, Smurfy's heat efficiency of 45% vs 50%.)

As long as you can aim, and to be honest I'm actually not that good at it so if I can do it just about anyone can, the CERLL is vastly superior to the CERPPC for everything but the top-end meta pop-tart builds.