74 replies to this topic

[tayhimself]

Viktor Drake, on 04 July 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

MAKE MY CLAN WEAPS P2W NAO!!!!

There is a damage, range, and tonnage advantage for the CERLarge. To offset this there is a 50% burn time penalty. If there was a trivial burn time penalty, any IS ERLL build would be completely useless. Stop whining.

[Ultimax]

Roadkill, on 07 July 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

As long as you can aim, and to be honest I'm actually not that good at it so if I can do it just about anyone can, the CERLL is vastly superior to the CERPPC for everything but the top-end meta pop-tart builds.

It's really got little to do with aiming.

The main issues are that your target has to stand still, not torso twist, and not shoot you back while you stand there for a full 1.5s exposed to them, and any allies that see you.


Those are the major issues.


On an IS mech like the Stalker, with high mounted energy hardpoints - you can mitigate the need for time on target to an extent, but even then snapping off a PPC round and then ducking back behind cover is always the better option from a survivability standpoint.

[Pjwned]

Roadkill, on 07 July 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

That's funny.

I use CERLL over CERPPC on just about every build I have because their damage per heat and range are so much better. I can carry 4 CERLL on a Summoner and would destroy the equivalent 2 CERPPC build every single time. Both builds are heat limited, but the 4 CERLL build puts out 45 damage vs 30 for the CERPPC. (34 vs 30 heat, Smurfy's heat efficiency of 45% vs 50%.)

As long as you can aim, and to be honest I'm actually not that good at it so if I can do it just about anyone can, the CERLL is vastly superior to the CERPPC for everything but the top-end meta pop-tart builds.

Well, I wouldn't really say that the C-ER LL is "vastly superior" because that burn time (and as a result, significant damage spread) is a disadvantage, but that certainly doesn't mean "there is absolutely no reason to take a clan ER LL...over a clan ER PPC as it stands now." The clan pulse lasers are a different story though, they really just don't offer anything worthwhile for the tradeoffs and they should be buffed a bit.

[Roadkill]

Ultimatum X, on 07 July 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

It's really got little to do with aiming.

The main issues are that your target has to stand still, not torso twist, and not shoot you back while you stand there for a full 1.5s exposed to them, and any allies that see you.

Those are the major issues.

Depends on where you're aiming. It's usually pretty easy to predict which way someone is going to torso twist when they take fire, so I aim for the side torso that they're going to turn toward me. Thus their torso twisting doesn't help.

I also tend to you now, actually use the 890-meter range of the CERLL so I'm generally not all that worried about return fire from my target's allies.

That 2-second burn (because I stagger the pairs of lasers to avoid ghost heat) is only a problem in a brawl... so I avoid brawling as much as possible. Even so, I can put most if not all of the CERLL damage onto an enemy's torso or legs (pick one), and at my level that's all I can really expect from the CERPPC as well. The only difference is that the CERLL spreads damage during each shot, while the CERPPC hits different panels with each shot. Ultimately it's spread damage either way for me in a brawl.

Note, though, that the CERPPC is spread damage by definition. You can do at most 20 points of pinpoint with a pair of them, while at least in theory I can land all 45 points of my laser damage to one location. I think I'm accurate enough to at least match to 20 points that the CERPPC is limited to, though, so the "spread" argument doesn't actually favor the CERPPC like people seem to think it does.

Pjwned, on 07 July 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Well, I wouldn't really say that the C-ER LL is "vastly superior" because that burn time (and as a result, significant damage spread) is a disadvantage, but that certainly doesn't mean "there is absolutely no reason to take a clan ER LL...over a clan ER PPC as it stands now."

Fair enough. Hyperbole vs hyperbole.

[Davers]

Ultimatum X, on 05 July 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Unfortunately I think Paul believes that PPCs are the highest skill required energy weapons.

So nothing is allowed to come close to their performance.

Well they are the hottest and heaviest non hit scan weapon. If the ER LL was close to it's performance why would you pay the extra tonnage and heat for a PPC?

[Angel of Annihilation]

tayhimself, on 07 July 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

There is a damage, range, and tonnage advantage for the CERLarge. To offset this there is a 50% burn time penalty. If there was a trivial burn time penalty, any IS ERLL build would be completely useless. Stop whining.

How about you not misquote what I am saying in your posts.

[KAT Ayanami]

Viktor Drake, on 04 July 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

Ok honestly, I realize that the Clan version of ER LLs and Pulse Lasers have alot more range than IS versions but seriously, an extra few hundred meters, useful ONLY on occasion on Alpine is not a big enough advantage to justify a 50% or greater burn time.

First of all, if you do that math, you find that an IS ER LL can fire 3 times for 27 damage in the same space of time that a Clan ER LL can fire twice for 22.5 damage. Additionally, a 1 second burn time means it is much easier to concentrate all 9 damage from each burst than it is for its Clan counterpart. I don't know the exact average but I sincerely doubt that the average duration anyone can hold a pulse targeted to a specific location on a moving and evading target is beyond .8 seconds. This means that each IS shot probably does around 7 damage to the targeted location before spreading where as with the Clan ER LL, your looking at only managing about 1/2 max damage, somewhere around 5.5 before spreading occurs.

Overall this means that for those few hundred, nearly useless meters in range, a Clan ER LL probably does 30% plus LESS damage overall than an IS ER LL in the vast majority of engagement.

Same can be said about the Pulse Lasers. IS Pulse Lasers have a duration of about half those of their Clan counterparts. This is a huge difference in effectiveness, again for only a few hundred meters in range.

Can someone please tell me how this is balanced?

Also, on the IS side of things, I always argued that Large Lasers and Large Pulse Lasers were better than PPCs simply because they were, if you were good at holding a pulse for 0.6 to 1.0 seconds. However, there is absolutely no comparison between the effectiveness of the Clan ER PPC and the Clan ER-LL or Clan LPL due to the disadvantage of such an extended pulse.

Now I understand with the range bonus, Clan weapons have to be given a disadvantage but right now the disadvantage is too much. What the values should be are as follows:

Clan ER-LL = Pulse duration reduced to 1.2, down from 1.5 which is still a 20% greater burn time than the IS version. Clan Pulse Lasers reduced to 0.9 which is still 33% greater than the IS version. This is reasonable and will at least then give the Clan ER-PPC a run for its money and give Clan pilots more useful options rather than just boating PPCs.

Did you know that you can rack MANY MORE lasers at the same time than ANY IS mech?

I can carry maybe 3 or 4 on an Atlas, and the tiberwolf can carry 1,254 lasers. And you also want them to have a higher damage per second used?

Just-go-home.

[Mcgral18]

KAT Ayanami, on 07 July 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Did you know that you can rack MANY MORE lasers at the same time than ANY IS mech?

I can carry maybe 3 or 4 on an Atlas, and the tiberwolf can carry 1,254 lasers. And you also want them to have a higher damage per second used?

Just-go-home.

TBR can have a max of 7 lasers? Can it carry enough Heatsinks to handle that heat?

A Banshee can carry 8 lasers and an AC20, a bit more than the hardpoint starved Atlas.

[Angel of Annihilation]

KAT Ayanami, on 07 July 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Did you know that you can rack MANY MORE lasers at the same time than ANY IS mech?

I can carry maybe 3 or 4 on an Atlas, and the tiberwolf can carry 1,254 lasers. And you also want them to have a higher damage per second used?

Just-go-home.

You didn't read all my posts on the subject.

I proposed as a solution that range and damage be decreased to compensate for the lowering of the pulse duration.

My position is that the disadvantage of such a long pulse duration carries much higher weight than the advantages of extra damage and range. Range is situational. If you are at under 500m, it becomes a useless benefit compared to other comparable weapons. Also Damage is relatively meaningless if you can't apply it to your target in a fashion that ultimately kills it quicker than it can kill you. Additionally the extra time you have to remain exposed to enemy fire with a 50% increased duration on a Clan ER LL and more than double the duration on a Clan LPL as opposed to its IS counterparts is a significant disadvantage in its own right.

Honestly I am not sure why more people aren't complaining about how under par the Clan ER LL and Clan LPL are because it just seems so obvious to me.

Anyway, personally I think alot of people are just blinded by the smoke and mirrors. I mean after all like multiple people have mentioned, on paper it does more damage and has a significant range advantage...oh and its clan weaponry so it must be overpowered compared to IS stuff because that's part of Lore after all. The reality on the other hand is a much different animal.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 07 July 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Pjwned]

Viktor Drake, on 07 July 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

Anyway, personally I think alot of people are just blinded by the smoke and mirrors. I mean after all like multiple people have mentioned, on paper it does more damage and has a significant range advantage...oh and its clan weaponry so it must be overpowered compared to IS stuff because that's part of Lore after all. The reality on the other hand is a much different animal.

I don't see how the significant advantages are just "smoke and mirrors" because OH MY GOD IT HAS A LONGER BURN DURATION THAT MEANS IT'S **** or how it's a bad weapon because it's not universally good at every range for low heat and tonnage. If you don't like it because of its beam duration and don't utilize the long range then just don't use it, that doesn't mean it's useless.

[Ultimax]

Davers, on 07 July 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Well they are the hottest and heaviest non hit scan weapon. If the ER LL was close to it's performance why would you pay the extra tonnage and heat for a PPC?

Sorry my comment was aimed at LPLs, and kind of jokingly.

I'm fine with cERPPCs being superior to cERLLAS. I still think cERLLAS beam duration is a touch too long but I can live with it because the weapon is solid otherwise.

[Augustus Martelus II]

lol people want to nerf everything till this game will be unplayable...or when small lasers will be the only viable weapons....

[Lincoln Kotare]

Bump.

[Ovion]

Why did this need a bump just because no one had commented for 2 hours. Wut.

Also - I'm finding C-Pulse Lasers, especially CMPL and CLPL pretty effective in game.
The extra range means they aren't qure so crippling to take in game as the IS variants.

[Lincoln Kotare]

Bump. I can't stop.