107 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Devlin Pierce, on 06 July 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

The match maker should try and make sure each team has ECM.

Or people could learn to use cover and they will never need countermeasures.

[Dracol]

Wolfways, on 06 July 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

Or people could learn to use cover and they will never need countermeasures.

To be fair, Caustic is LRM boater's heaven. Not much cover around the main fighting area.

That is why AMS is useful. Don't need no stinking cover for it to help mitigate damage.

[Yokaiko]

Dracol, on 06 July 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

To be fair, Caustic is LRM boater's heaven. Not much cover around the main fighting area.

That is why AMS is useful. Don't need no stinking cover for it to help mitigate damage.

There is plenty of cover, its just not near the caldera.

.....there is some magic mech attractor that just draws all pugs.

[Wolfways]

Dracol, on 06 July 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

To be fair, Caustic is LRM boater's heaven. Not much cover around the main fighting area.

That is why AMS is useful. Don't need no stinking cover for it to help mitigate damage.

Yeah, Caustic and Alpine are where LRM's can become a problem, but on the other maps i generally forget they exist.

[Devlin Pierce]

Wolfways, on 06 July 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

Or people could learn to use cover and they will never need countermeasures.

Would you like to tell me a good place to hide on Caldera from missile rain? Besides your base that is. I am not trying to be a ****, I would just really like to know what you do when your team has no ECM coverage and you get narced.

I have actually hid behind a friendly Atlas before, but I felt bad after.

Edit: Saw your response.

Wolfways, on 06 July 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Yeah, Caustic and Alpine are where LRM's can become a problem, but on the other maps i generally forget they exist.

So two out of 5 maps have a severe disadvantage if one side has no ECM, I think that warrants a MM tweak regarding ECM mechs.

Edited by Devlin Pierce, 06 July 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[Sephlock]

Monkey Lover, on 05 July 2014 - 02:12 AM, said:

12 mechs couldnt kill one naring mech? Last time this happen to me ii yelled out "jenner narcing kill it" it died not long after. By the way the last 3games I took a raven with a narc I had one maybe two mechs with 10-15 each.Its very rare for me to narc and have lrm boats at the same time.

In fairness, in a pug all you really needed to type was "jenner" and your entire team would turn around and chase him to the ends of the Earth.

Edited by Sephlock, 06 July 2014 - 05:50 PM.

[Wolfways]

Devlin Pierce, on 06 July 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

So two out of 5 maps have a severe disadvantage if one side has no ECM, I think that warrants a MM tweak regarding ECM mechs.

Where did you get 5? There are 13 maps (including the 2 night and 1 snow variants).

[Devlin Pierce]

Wolfways, on 06 July 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Where did you get 5? There are 13 maps (including the 2 night and 1 snow variants).

You are correct, sorry, 2 out of 10, a slightly better ratio, but still warranting a change considering the strength of ECM in general.

I do not count weather variants, because as far as I know, these factors have no effect on LRMs once the lock is achieved.

[Wolfways]

Devlin Pierce, on 06 July 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

You are correct, sorry, 2 out of 10, a slightly better ratio, but still warranting a change considering the strength of ECM in general.

I do not count weather variants, because as far as I know, these factors have no effect on LRMs once the lock is achieved.

The problem with ECM is that it does what it shouldn't. Guardian ECM should not counter missile locks.

Imo there are only 3 things that need fixed:
GECM needs to do what it did in BT.
Boating should be penalized (like some other weapons have been)
LRM's need a total change to buff direct-fire and nerf indirect-fire.

I find AMS is actually quite good at shooting down NARC though, and if someone gets one on me, especially on an open map like Caustic, i deserve the incoming LRM damage if i can't get to terrain good enough to hide behind. Otherwise there would be no point in NARC.
You win some, you lose some

[Devlin Pierce]

Wolfways, on 06 July 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

The problem with ECM is that it does what it shouldn't. Guardian ECM should not counter missile locks.

Imo there are only 3 things that need fixed:
GECM needs to do what it did in BT.
Boating should be penalized (like some other weapons have been)
LRM's need a total change to buff direct-fire and nerf indirect-fire.

I find AMS is actually quite good at shooting down NARC though, and if someone gets one on me, especially on an open map like Caustic, i deserve the incoming LRM damage if i can't get to terrain good enough to hide behind. Otherwise there would be no point in NARC.
You win some, you lose some

Changes are fine, I am simply saying that in its current state, both teams or neither should have access to ECM.

[Wolfways]

Devlin Pierce, on 06 July 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Changes are fine, I am simply saying that in its current state, both teams or neither should have access to ECM.

I'd rather neither. I like LRM's, or at least the idea of them, but in MWO they suck.
But PGI seem determined to keep ECM the way it is, so i guess i wouldn't be against the MM spreading the little magic box joy.

[Sephlock]

Wolfways, on 06 July 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

Or people could learn to use cover and they will never need countermeasures.

OTOH the people who make these LRM threads are like the Pakleds of MW:O.

[Scurry]

Well, just to be fair, LRMs are very strong on Caustic/Alpine. Seriously, it's hard to say, "Don't go into the open!" when something like 80-90% of the map is open.

[Devlin Pierce]

Sephlock, on 06 July 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

OTOH the people who make these LRM threads are like the Pakleds of MW:O.

We like power.

[HBizzle]

You would probably do better if you built out a lance to deal with LRMs. Learn to play with others. Be more social.

[Yokaiko]

HBizzle, on 06 July 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

You would probably do better if you built out a lance to deal with LRMs. Learn to play with others. Be more social.

Don't hump the caldera in Caustic

[HBizzle]

Yokaiko, on 06 July 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Don't hump the caldera in Caustic

This as well. Use the sides as cover. Minimizes your exposure to fire and increases maneuverability.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

The simple fact of the matter is that multiple lrm boats with no penatly to indirect fire + enemy team that was dropped without ECM = 90% win chance for the lrm team. When everyone has to play gears of war because more than 5 seconds in the open removes 10% of your total mech health, the other team has full control of the map and can flank and pick off their enemies with little fear of retaliation because of the invisible hammer of the gods waiting to smash them into oblivion should they make the UNFORGIVABLE error of trying to move 100m to the next piece of cover in order to attempt a push on their position. Anyone that supports what lrms are capable of now in PUGS (where the counters you all love spouting on about can't be guaranteed unless you play one of the 5 or 6 ecm capable mechs none of which are medium or heavies) needs to have their heads examined.

The simple fact of the matter is without control over your teammate's loadouts, lrms are capable of being grossly overpowered for nearly no risk or aiming skill required if the required counters are not given to your team. I don't like pop tarts but at least they can't share lines of fire with every other mech on their team and effortlessly have 3-5 mechs focusing down one target within 1000m.

More over the cover humpfest induced by lrms spamming teams have made the game turn incredibly stagnant. Everyone is afraid to expose themselves or make a push because they first person to poke out gets blown to hell by snipers, lrms, and pop tarts. It's making it so games take longer and are less fun for everyone but the lrm spammers and their friends/spotters.

Both the counters and buffs for lrms need to be nerfed such that even in the presence of every buff and no nerfs lrms are not overwhelming, and in the presence of all counters and no buffs lrms are not useless. The first two things that needs changing are radar deprivation, and ECM. ECM needs to lose the AoE invisibility cloak and instead just makes the lock-ons take significantly longers, and radar dep needs to just half the time to lose lock after losing LOS. The length of locks after breaking LOS should also depend on whether or not the detailed target information has been found on the target. I'ld try with maybe 1 sec locks without detailed info and regular time after detailed information has been gained. Then put in an accuracy nerf on indirect firing without TAG or NARC, then go from there.

[El Bandito]

Devlin Pierce, on 06 July 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

So two out of 5 maps have a severe disadvantage if one side has no ECM, I think that warrants a MM tweak regarding ECM mechs.

It is 2 out of 13 maps in rotation. Are you sure you are a Founder?

ALPINE PEAKS
CANYON NETWORK
CAUSTIC VALLEY
CRIMSON STRAIT
FOREST COLONY
FOREST COLONY SNOW
FROZEN CITY
FROZEN CITY NIGHT
HPG MANIFOLD
RIVER CITY
RIVER CITY NIGHT
TERRA THERMA
TOURMALINE DESERT

LRM QQers always blow things out of proportion just to have an argument.


Finally, the fact that a no-skill 1.5 ton of equipment makes such difference in match ups is pretty sad on part of PGI's balance team. ECM should have been nerfed to its canon function long time ago. Instead PGI wasted their time trying to come up with hard counters on a hard counter.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 03:21 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Its a pretty big and very common problem for one team to drop with no ecm and the other three or more. If the team with ecm has the faintest knowledge on how to employ it your pretty dead soon.
There should be something in MM to balance that out in drops because its pretty pointless to try to overcome that pugging. The get better crowd cant think that far so ignore their mumbling and hope you have a very good scout on your team to have any chance.
The whole ecm/bap is borked pretty solid to. Command console ... LOL. 3 tons of useless.