107 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 07 July 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

More over the cover humpfest induced by lrms spamming teams

...

[Tw1stedMonkey]

El Bandito, on 07 July 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:

It is 2 out of 13 maps in rotation. Are you sure you are a Founder?

ALPINE PEAKS
CANYON NETWORK
CAUSTIC VALLEY
CRIMSON STRAIT
FOREST COLONY
FOREST COLONY SNOW
FROZEN CITY
FROZEN CITY NIGHT
HPG MANIFOLD
RIVER CITY
RIVER CITY NIGHT
TERRA THERMA
TOURMALINE DESERT

LRM QQers always blow things out of proportion just to have an argument.


Finally, the fact that a no-skill 1.5 ton of equipment makes such difference in match ups is pretty sad on part of PGI's balance team. ECM should have been nerfed to its canon function long time ago. Instead PGI wasted their time trying to come up with hard counters on a hard counter.

Fun fact, the snow/night variants of a map are weighted such that the the probability of getting river city + prob of river city night = probably of map without variants. This means there is a 20% (13 maps where 6 maps are weight at .5 instead of one, .5*6=3+(13-6=7)=10; so 2 out of 10 chances, if you didn't follow) chance of dropping on a map where lrms rule the day. Give me an example of a map where srm/brawler builds have as significant an advantage over longer range builds. Go ahead, I can wait.

I agree on the ECM thing, it is long overdue a change to remove the invisibility cloak.

Sephlock, on 07 July 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

...

What? I don't mean to imply that the cover humps are solely the fault of lrms but they seriously compound the issue that is also prevalent with pop tarts and snipers (FLD weapon builds) being so popular and also by the large number of players in the game on each team.

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 07 July 2014 - 04:22 AM.

[zagibu]

Maybe there could be a consumable that destroys one attached narc beacon or something.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Narc is instant death on certain maps without cover.

[El Bandito]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 07 July 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

Fun fact, the snow/night variants of a map are weighted such that the the probability of getting river city + prob of river city night = probably of map without variants. This means there is a 20% (13 maps where 6 maps are weight at .5 instead of one, .5*6=3+(13-6=7)=10; so 2 out of 10 chances, if you didn't follow) chance of dropping on a map where lrms rule the day. Give me an example of a map where srm/brawler builds have as significant an advantage over longer range builds. Go ahead, I can wait.

Don't try to steer the conversation to another topic such as short range builds. The fact is that people are way overreacting over LRM spam and are exaggerating their accounts, and I am calling them out for that. We all know long range > short range, ever since the Stalkers and later, poptarts showed up. If you got a beef, take it to PGI. Meanwhile, carry an AMS.

lockwoodx, on 07 July 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

Narc is instant death on certain maps without cover.

See? This guy's statement is a prime example of exaggeration. Being NARCed is never an instant death. LRMs are never instant death. Not if you are moving and torso twisting. Without cover, FLD weapons kill you faster than LRMs. But no, LRM QQers just wanna shut their eyes and cry for nerf.

There is a reason why mechs should ideally bring mixed loadouts, just in case one faces open maps.

For complete newbies, LRMs are naturally harder to deal with, and ideally LRMs should be reworked to have less frustration and more capabilities on all Elos of play, from cadets, to competitive. But for experienced players, and especially Founders to cry for LRM nerf, they should be ashamed.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[Karamarka]

lockwoodx, on 07 July 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

Narc is instant death on certain maps without cover.

Just had a 12-1 Frozen City game. Not sure if we got narced but our whole team got wiped in under 3:30.

[Sephlock]

Karamarka, on 07 July 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

Just had a 12-1 Frozen City game. Not sure if we got narced but our whole team got wiped in under 3:30.

[Trauglodyte]

I appreciate what the OP is saying. It is really hard having NARC land on you, whether you're solo or in a group. If you're solo, short of having GREAT players on your team, you're going to get burned down without ever knowing why. In groups, at least your friends will tell you what is going on. But, in this case, you were on the absolute worst map for NARC/LRMs and you ended up getting knocked in the dirt because of it.

In the future, pray for someone to tell you what is what. Should you hear NARC over chat/VOIP, shut down and pray. Otherwise, you're going to just have to play through the pain cause this is what it is. On the positive note, AMS does shoot down NARC pods and it is painfully hard to actually land the lil suckers at max range on anything that isn't an Atlas.

[Randalf Yorgen]

ah yes, NARC. You know Narc is a homing beacon and you know that you have to have special missiles to lock onto that homing signal, missiles that cost at least twice as much. Don't believe me, you don't have to, check what SARNA has to say about it http://www.sarna.net..._Missile_Beacon PGI has been doing things halfassed from the very start. IF they implemented NARC properly then you would only see it in teams as the spotter would need someone dedicated to shooting the targets that the lock OR all LRM boats would have to carry the much more costly homing missiles just in case.

Oh, NARC is destructible, one glancing small laser hit to it should be enough to cause it to burn out. Just ask us old timers.... oh wait,PGI doesn't give a crap about those of us who might just know how to fix most of the issues in the game.

[Zypher]

The issue isn't LRMs or Narc so much as the options for a counter are far too dependent on coordination in pubs. Using a narc in pubs doesn't require coordination, fire narc, and LRMs go fire and forget.

It's almost a guarantee that some players will being carrying LRMs, even more so with clan mechs. In pubs it only takes one person in a light with a narc to melt the other team. The real issue here is there isn't anything one person can do on their own to remove narc from their mech, you have to hope that your team has double ECM or enough AMS to cover it, which in pubs is a crap shoot.

The alternative would to be to carry narc yourself to return the favor. In MWLL a friendly could shoot you with a PPC to remove the narc, while maybe not the best solution it's still better than hoping against hope for AMS or double ECM in a pub.

I am sure others could come up with something else not to break narc but to also prevent it being a game ender in pubs in the right conditions. Obviously maps like River City this isn't an issue, but Alpine or Caustic, forget it, one competent light narcing for the team will seal the deal in a pub.

I would actually be in favor of increasing the range of a narc hit providing there were more effective counters to remove them; it might make them useful enough in competitive play for users to actually incorporate LRMs again.

[Andross Deverow]

The trend after clan release is simply that there are going to be lrms in every match. I mean think about it. every clan mech out there will more than likely toss a couple of racks of lrms on them simply because they have extra pod space and extra weight to use up, why not toss on an easy buttun?. This just exasperates the issue with lrms because there are soo many out there now. Add in NARC and its a nightmare to most any player.

Just an observation,

Regards.

[El Bandito]

Andross Deverow, on 07 July 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

The trend after clan release is simply that there are going to be lrms in every match. I mean think about it. every clan mech out there will more than likely toss a couple of racks of lrms on them simply because they have extra pod space and extra weight to use up, why not toss on an easy buttun?. This just exasperates the issue with lrms because there are soo many out there now. Add in NARC and its a nightmare to most any player. Just an observation, Regards.

My answer is still the same. Everyone just bring AMS. Clan LRMs are stream fired, thus more vulnerable to AMS. I never brought AMS before, because I almost never die to LRMs, NARCed or not. However, I realized that AMS can help my lesser skilled pugmates to be my meat shield longer, so I bring AMS every match now.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Lykaon]

Devlin Pierce, on 06 July 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Would you like to tell me a good place to hide on Caldera from missile rain? Besides your base that is. I am not trying to be a ****, I would just really like to know what you do when your team has no ECM coverage and you get narced.

Within 180m or less of the LRMs?

I have seen so many times the tried and true PUG strategy of holding in place under cover no matter what create the ideal circumstances for LRM heavy teams to farm an easy win by dropping NARCs.

It is difficult on solos to counter act what amounts to team work without also implimenting team work themselves.And the lack of tools to assist in team work isn't helping the situation either.

Frequently the best strategy for not getting LURMed to death is a concerted push to cancel the range advantage.But how do you coordinate an entire team when the only means of communicating this is to type and pray someone read it.

[Calamus]

I don't agree that the problem is NARC or LRMs. The problem is the players.

Everyone wants to be in a meta build, or what they think is going to get them the most damage, the most kills, and the most c-bills/xp. For this reason everyone forgets that the game relies on strategy. How many mechs are able to equip AMS? How many mechs do you see that don't run AMS because they want that extra few tons of dakka ammo, or need the extra heat sinks so they can fit that ER PPC, or that extra laser?

People are overloading their mechs with what they think is more winning firepower, and the completely ignore defensive strategy in the loadout of their mech.

I tell you, when I drop with my clan out of every 4 players at least two have AMS. Most of the time at least one player has multiple AMS. The other day I did a drop with my clan and our entire Star was able to sit out in the open because we had a Kit Fox with triple AMS and an overload module, and two other mechs with single AMS. We literally stood out in the open and shot down every single LRM that came our way.

The gaming base needs an attitude shift. Take 5-10 points off your alpha and install a bloody AMS! You don't even need ECM. Just think how PUG Missile Boats would get shut down if one out of every two mechs in a PUG match had an AMS?

Edited by Calamus, 07 July 2014 - 07:48 AM.

[OznerpaG]

NARC cutting through a single mech's ECM is fine, but if there's a 2nd ECM mech nearby THAT should cut the NARC signal - i play LRMs almost exclusively and to me that sounds perfectly fair

i think it would add to strategy - a teammate calling out that somebody got NARC'd so that person can find an ECM mech to give him cover or vice-versa

also a good point - the matchmaker should try and make sure both sides have at least 1 ECM mech if there is 2 available in the queue. i TAG all my own targets so whomever i'm looking at gets smoked anyways ECM or no lol

Edited by JagdFlanker, 07 July 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[Doctor Proctor]

El Bandito, on 07 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

My answer is still the same. Everyone just bring AMS. Clan LRMs are stream fired, thus more vulnerable to AMS. I never brought AMS before, because I almost never die to LRMs, NARCed or not. However, I realized that AMS can help my lesser skilled pugmates to be my meat shield longer, so I bring AMS every match now.

AMS isn't always a magic solution though. Even if it shot down 10 missiles out of a stream, you're sometimes getting hit by 2xCLRM20's, which means 30 missiles still hit. Not to mention that the OTHER mechs on the team might be firing LRMs as well, which means you could be getting hit 70+ missiles easily in just one salvo from a couple of Timberwolves. AMS won't do jack against that.

Edit: Case in point the match I just had where I was running a Jester with dual AMS and 1500 rounds. Against 3 missile boats, even with some cover from one of the canyon walls in Canyon Network I was still getting enough to extra missiles making through the cover and AMS wall to take out my left arm. The never ending stream is just too much, and I depleted all my ammo long before they ran out of LRMs. And these weren't even Clanner LRMs, just IS ones. I'm not saying they're completely OP, just that a LOT of people are bringing them, and AMS will only shoot down so many at a time.

Edited by Doctor Proctor, 07 July 2014 - 09:07 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

IMHO, NARC is in a great place right now.

LRMs need the attention, the question is how to best improve them?

When not boated they are weak, when either boated or combined with other boats on the right map they can seem overwhelming. There are also a bunch of hard counters that can negate LRMs further making them all or nothing kind of weapons.

So for me:

• The first issue is their high impulse that really shakes the heck outta mechs, that seems to also dip DPS and can make seeking cover harder if a player gets disoriented from the incoming fire and any technical issue like rubber-banding/teleporting. The quick fix is to reduce the impulse on missiles.
  
• The second issue is from LRM 'spam', since we can fit an LRM 15 on a 6 tube slots, for example, and have multiple small salvos firing (and there's even the Stalker Champion!); so with the currently high impulse they can be really annoying and blinding. One thing that can be looked at is increasing LRM cooldown and lengthening the time between salvos. Set all LRMs to a 5 second cooldown (or more even) and have a longer time between a broken up launch such as a 15 out of 6 tubes instead of a rapid 6 - 6 - 3 pattern, what if extend such as 6 missiles, then two seconds pass 6 missiles, two seconds pass three missiles, normal cooldown cycle.
  
• The third issue seems to be how 'effective' firing indirectly can be from both the firing arc LRMs take, and how locks can be achieved on any Targeted opponent. One change can be to change their firing arcs. A second change is limiting what can get locked on to. If Locks can only happen with Line of Sight, NARC, TAG and UAV then maybe LRMs wouldn't be so annoying.
  
• The fourth issue is how the spread works on Launchers. LRM 5 and LRM 10 can core mechs surprisingly fast in the right circumstances and larger salvos from the 15 and 20 are ammo inefficient. What I'd like to consider is applying the ssrm bone targeting system, so that larger Launchers are more ammo efficient and so that it is harder to straight up core an opponent with the smaller launchers.
  
• The fifth issue is how boats can seem to carry an endless supply of ammo. What I'd consider is dropping ammo from 180 missiles a ton back down to 120 missiles. The tradeoff, if necessary at this point, could be to either increase speed or consider raising damage (it would be no more than 1.65 per missile from the current 1.1 damage).

Then if these tweaks seem like they are helping but 'weakened' LRMs, I'd hope to consider another speed adjustment first, so that any size launcher could be more viable and maybe have LRMs be more useful in a mixed loadout then needing to boat.

Then keep tweaking from there.

[Andross Deverow]

zagibu, on 07 July 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

Maybe there could be a consumable that destroys one attached narc beacon or something.

First thing PGI needs to do is put a little warning in the cockpit that says you have been NARC'd that would do wonders and would go a long ways toward balancing out the damn NARC issue. I mean how hard can it be to put a little flashy icon in the cockpit?

Regards

[El Bandito]

Doctor Proctor, on 07 July 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

AMS isn't always a magic solution though. Even if it shot down 10 missiles out of a stream, you're sometimes getting hit by 2xCLRM20's, which means 30 missiles still hit. Not to mention that the OTHER mechs on the team might be firing LRMs as well, which means you could be getting hit 70+ missiles easily in just one salvo from a couple of Timberwolves. AMS won't do jack against that. Edit: Case in point the match I just had where I was running a Jester with dual AMS and 1500 rounds. Against 3 missile boats, even with some cover from one of the canyon walls in Canyon Network I was still getting enough to extra missiles making through the cover and AMS wall to take out my left arm. The never ending stream is just too much, and I depleted all my ammo long before they ran out of LRMs. And these weren't even Clanner LRMs, just IS ones. I'm not saying they're completely OP, just that a LOT of people are bringing them, and AMS will only shoot down so many at a time.

1. IS LRM boats are stronger than Clan LRM boats due to grouped fire.

2. It is good that you are bringing AMS, but I said everyone should bring AMS. And by that I mean:



You can't expect a single mech to nullify 60 tons worth of LRM launchers from 3 enemy mechs. That's not how it works. Stay close to your mates, and cover them with AMS and they can cover you as well.

The underhive just don't understand this simple fact because they are too busy min-maxing. Well, **** their ignorant arses. PGI should just make AMS mandatory or at least tell them to equip AMS in load screen tip.

I have seen 12 man's trolling pug queue with 12 AMS equipped mechs with no ECM. Concentrated fire from 4 LRM boats didn't even kill a single one of them. That's how effective AMS is.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[Andross Deverow]

Praetor Knight, on 07 July 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

IMHO, NARC is in a great place right now.

LRMs need the attention, the question is how to best improve them?

When not boated they are weak, when either boated or combined with other boats on the right map they can seem overwhelming. There are also a bunch of hard counters that can negate LRMs further making them all or nothing kind of weapons.

So for me:

• The first issue is their high impulse that really shakes the heck outta mechs, that seems to also dip DPS and can make seeking cover harder if a player gets disoriented from the incoming fire and any technical issue like rubber-banding/teleporting. The quick fix is to reduce the impulse on missiles.
  
• The second issue is from LRM 'spam', since we can fit an LRM 15 on a 6 tube slots, for example, and have multiple small salvos firing (and there's even the Stalker Champion!); so with the currently high impulse they can be really annoying and blinding. One thing that can be looked at is increasing LRM cooldown and lengthening the time between salvos. Set all LRMs to a 5 second cooldown (or more even) and have a longer time between a broken up launch such as a 15 out of 6 tubes instead of a rapid 6 - 6 - 3 pattern, what if extend such as 6 missiles, then two seconds pass 6 missiles, two seconds pass three missiles, normal cooldown cycle.
  
• The third issue seems to be how 'effective' firing indirectly can be from both the firing arc LRMs take, and how locks can be achieved on any Targeted opponent. One change can be to change their firing arcs. A second change is limiting what can get locked on to. If Locks can only happen with Line of Sight, NARC, TAG and UAV then maybe LRMs wouldn't be so annoying.
  
• The fourth issue is how the spread works on Launchers. LRM 5 and LRM 10 can core mechs surprisingly fast in the right circumstances and larger salvos from the 15 and 20 are ammo inefficient. What I'd like to consider is applying the ssrm bone targeting system, so that larger Launchers are more ammo efficient and so that it is harder to straight up core an opponent with the smaller launchers.
  
• The fifth issue is how boats can seem to carry an endless supply of ammo. What I'd consider is dropping ammo from 180 missiles a ton back down to 120 missiles. The tradeoff, if necessary at this point, could be to either increase speed or consider raising damage (it would be no more than 1.65 per missile from the current 1.1 damage).

Then if these tweaks seem like they are helping but 'weakened' LRMs, I'd hope to consider another speed adjustment first, so that any size launcher could be more viable and maybe have LRMs be more useful in a mixed loadout then needing to boat.

Then keep tweaking from there.

Damage should actually be dropped to an even 1.0 damage. Never more.

Regards