107 replies to this topic

[Pygar]

El Bandito, on 05 July 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

Had a Spider-5D, whines about having no ECM. Especially considering the fact that the lost side had more LRM capable mechs. Bad thread is bad. And you call yourself a Founder?

What needs fixing is not the NARC, neither LRMs. It is ECM, first and foremost. Then we can talk about the previous two.

Tbh, I'm not sure if any of the gear needs to be fixed- this is really a problem with being PUG or solo player only....in PUGs you have no guarantee that random people on your team are going to bring EWAR or LRMs, or really that they will bring mechs actually equipped with armor. (Don't laugh, I've seen it happen before.) Personally, this is one of the major reasons I tend to play in groups rather than in PUGs....PUGs are just too random- for every time you have a good game in PUGs you will invariably have another (if not many) where there is just 0% teamwork or even 0% people who have played for more than 5 matches, and it tends to lead not only to losses, but soul crushingly bad losses. (I still play PUGs too, but I know how to take the good with the bad in PUGs and just accept sometimes that it is what it is instead of getting mad about losing games....and if it is bad enough to make me mad, I get on TS and go looking for a team, and that usually fixes the problem.)

Edited by Pygar, 07 July 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Andross Deverow, on 07 July 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Damage should actually be dropped to an even 1.0 damage. Never more.

Regards

Uh... well that's fine with me. Just gotta look else where then.

Many other variables available to tinker with.

[El Bandito]

Pygar, on 07 July 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Tbh, I'm not sure if any of the gear needs to be fixed- this is really a problem with being PUG or solo player only....in PUGs you have no guarantee that random people on your team are going to bring EWAR or LRMs, or really that they will bring mechs actually equipped with armor. (Don't laugh, I've seen it happen before.) Personally, this is one of the major reasons I tend to play in groups rather than in PUGs....PUGs are just too random- for every time you have a good game in PUGs you will invariable have another where there is just 0% teamwork or even 0% people who have played for more than 5 matches, and it tends to lead not only to losses, but soul crushingly bad losses.

I know that feeling. I play solo-q in League of Legends, and that is even worse. The reason I play pug matches in MWO is because I perform usually well in it, regardless of the outcome. And no LRMs had ruined my day. Not even once.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 09:56 AM.

[Doctor Proctor]

El Bandito, on 07 July 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

1. IS LRM boats are stronger than Clan LRM boats due to grouped fire.

2. It is good that you are bringing AMS, but I said everyone should bring AMS. And by that I mean:



You can't expect a single mech to nullify 60 tons worth of LRM launchers from 3 enemy mechs. That's not how it works. Stay close to your mates, and cover them with AMS and they can cover you as well.

The underhive just don't understand this simple fact because they are too busy min-maxing. Well, **** their ignorant arses. PGI should just make AMS mandatory or at least tell them to equip AMS in load screen tip.

I have seen 12 man's trolling pug queue with 12 AMS equipped mechs with no ECM. Concentrated fire from 4 LRM boats didn't even kill a single one of them. That's how effective AMS is.

So now 12 mechs bring AMS to counter what 3 or 4 mechs brought. Okay...what about when 12 enemy mechs bring LRMs? It's still the same problem then. Due to the small radius of AMS that also means that we're all huddled into one little blob, and unable to do things like flank. It still just leads back to the same problem that massed LRMs are extremely powerful, and AMS by itself only slightly reduces the damage but doesn't stop it.

Hell, if they want more mechs to bring AMS another thing they could do is about double the ammo they currently hold per ton. EVERY MATCH where I bring AMS I run out of ammo now. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Even when it's the BLR-1G that has two tons of it for his single AMS because I couldn't find anything better to use the last ton on. That alone tells me that AMS is not an effective deterrent because the enemy will deplete my AMS ammo long before they deplete their own LRM ammo stores.

Edited by Doctor Proctor, 07 July 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[El Bandito]

Doctor Proctor, on 07 July 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

So now 12 mechs bring AMS to counter what 3 or 4 mechs brought. Okay...what about when 12 enemy mechs bring LRMs? It's still the same problem then. Due to the small radius of AMS that also means that we're all huddled into one little blob, and unable to do things like flank. It still just leads back to the same problem that massed LRMs are extremely powerful, and AMS by itself only slightly reduces the damage but doesn't stop it. Hell, if they want more mechs to bring AMS another thing they could do is about double the ammo they currently hold per ton. EVERY MATCH where I bring AMS I run out of ammo now. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Even when it's the BLR-1G that has two tons of it for his single AMS because I couldn't find anything better to use the last ton on. That alone tells me that AMS is not an effective deterrent because the enemy will delete it long before they deplete their own LRM ammo stores.

12 LRM mechs? How naive are you to even think such thing can be a common occurrence? Also, there is no surprise that your AMS run out of ammo if only you are the one who brings AMS.

1. AMS is not suppose to be a deterrent, it is suppose to be damage mitigation. More you bring, more effective it is.

2. AMS alone will not eliminate the LRM boats as long as you just hide in one place and never try to engage the enemy. Even if 6 of your teammates have AMS, a push will defeat the LRM boats easily.

3. PGI gave you the easy mode Radar Deprivation module. Use it.

To quote an experienced player:

Solahma, on 07 July 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Actually had a game last night where ALL the LRMs were dealt with by AMS. I swear every mech on my team had AMS if not a couple with 2 AMS. It was great. The enemy team had at least 2 LRM heavy mechs. I was in my Dire Wolf and heard "Incoming Missile" a lot, but rarely got his by anything It was glorious. If EVERYONE took AMS I feel like there would be a lot less complaining about LRMs or the lack of ECM (or relying on it)

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[SmurfOff]

There is a fix for boating LRM's, but it would require repair/re-arm and you think the whining is bad now...

People need to understand that BALANCE != nerfing annoyances into the ground. LRMs have more counters than any other weapon system in the game. They do not benefit from the double distance buff that energy/ballistics get. They are slow as crap at range. They have minimum distance. Hit detection blows...

overall, LRMs are where they need to be. If anything needs to be done, the firing angles may need to be adjusted. I get tired of direct firing on a target at 500M and watching my missiles climb into the sky for 3 seconds for no reason.

[Pjwned]

I thought that Russ tweeted about looking into a warning for NARC, so that's something.

[Sean von Steinike]

lockwoodx, on 07 July 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

Narc is instant death on certain maps without cover.

Only for people that suck.

[Wolfways]

Anyone who knows my forum posts knows that i get very vocal when it comes to LRM's. I admit that they are one of my favourite Battletech weapons, or they would be if i considered them an effective weapon in MWO.

First i should point out that everyone has different opinions on the effectiveness of LRM's because there are so many variables that come into play, from the amount of countermeasures a team uses to the piloting ability of the players. With that said, i don't expect everyone to agree with everything (or anything) i say here.
These suggestions are also not all my own ideas. Others have posted their thoughts on the problems with LRM's for a long time and some may be ideas that i personally liked.
That being said, these are the changes i'd like to see in MWO concerning LRM's and associated equipment.

GuardianECM, TAG and Artemis.
Imo GECM in its current form is bad, not only for LRM's but also for the future of imformation warfare, but i'll stick to my reasons on why it should be changed to how it interacts with LRM's.
GECM is supposed to stop the enemy from gathering information about the mech carrying GECM and allies within 180m, not to stop missiles from locking on. This "feature" needs to be removed.
In PUGs you can't count on teammates to use TAG/NARC and forcing an LRM mech like the Catapult to give up one of its few energy slots which it needs for defense is ridiculous. Not only that but it further reduces the LRM's range to 750m.
The Catapult-A1 can't even equip a TAG!
TAG and Artemis should be options to increase the effectiveness of LRM's, not a requirement in case enemy mechs have a piece of equipment that renders your weapons completely useless.
Imo saying a player using LRM's should have to take TAG and Artemis is like telling a player that uses lasers or AC's that they should only use ERlasers or UltraAC's. Using any T2 equipment should be an option, not a requirement, and not using them should not render that weapon system useless.
GECM was meant as a counter to the advanced technology, not to the actual weapons themselves.

Now onto the weapon itself.

Indirect-fire.
A tricky subject. I can see how it can be seen as overpowered when every mech with LRM's equipped opens fire on the closest enemy mech to be spotted.
I would say that maybe the enemy should only be able to be indirect-fired on if they have a TAG, NARC, or UAV on them, which would also help create a synergy between LRM's and light/medium pilots who wanted to play the role of spotters.
Maybe the missiles could have a bigger spread too.

Direct-fire.
Because the LRM mech has to first acquire a lock and then guide the missiles during the whole flight time this makes the firing mech virtually defenseless as it can't torso twist to spread incoming damage from the enemy, or if targeted by another enemy can't return fire without losing the lock on the current target and wasting its ammo.
Make LRM's fire and forget. The firer has to still get the lock first but after that the missiles will track the target by themselves. Also, because the firer has no influence on the missiles after they leave the launcher then people could not drop and reacquire lock to bypass terrain.

One of the main problems with LRM's is that it is a long ranged weapon that cannot be used at long range. The amount of cover available on the maps; the slow missile speed; and the fact that the target gets a warning that missiles have been fired means that it is almost impossible to hit someone that isn't very far from cover (which my opponents generally aren't) at anything over about 600m range....with a 1000m range weapon!
Also you need to be able to lock onto a target at the weapons maximum range or that range is pointless.
Imo this is a map problem and there is nothing that can be done to the weapon itself to correct this, other than increasing the missile speed to direct-fire weapon velocities which would just look weird.
Conversely i do think LRM's need a range increase to about 1500m, especially as you need to stay facing the target opening your cockpit and center torso to return fire. And they are after all supposed to have about the same range as an ERPPC.
While i do see the validity in a missile warning system, i think that with the way LRM long range effectiveness has been diminished due to map design the warning should be removed. At least then the target would know he has been targeted when the first salvo hits, just like other weapons, and the LRM user would at least get in one hit before the target runs into cover.
If the warning is not removed then LRM's need a speed increase to at least 300m/s.

LRM cooldown should also be increased by around 30% or more and damage increased by the same amount. This will reduce the amount of missile "spam" and the damage increase (but the same dps) would make LRM's more viable for direct-fire.

Also, ammo/ton needs to be increased (for all ammo-based weapons). Battletech mechs, weapons, etc. were designed for a game where battles simulated a few minutes of combat at most, not for a 10-15 minute match and weapons need a lot more ammo.
A stock JM6-S carries 3 tons of ammo. My "stock-weapon" JM6-S needs 9 tons of ammo to last nearly a full match, so imo ammo/ton should be triple the original number, and that's before taking into account double armour.
A stock CPLT-C1 carries 2 tons of LRM ammo. Try playing MWO with that.

[MischiefSC]

I'm not top Elo but I certainly don't play in the scrub tier.

If my team has 2 or 3 LRM boats and I'm in my Jenner and NARCing, there are 4 locations on Caustic where you can go and hope to survive the end of the NARC duration. They are all out of the way. Anywhere else and you absolutely no question will get destroyed. After you're dead, I'll NARC the next guy.

Normally after watching 2 or 3 deaths the other team will rush - and get butchered.

Alpine, about the same but there's a bit more cover - just further between cover locations, so you get the same issue.

'Okay, hold fire on the LRMs you guys until I narc someone or they won't get into the open.'

That's all I need to say most games.

Frozen City - they try to hustle from the bottom of the shuttle to the buildings.... WHUMP. Faster/larger mechs will make it alright but damaged. After which one LRM boat stands near the edge of the canyon, one near the top of the shuttle and then you've got the whole enemy team jostling to stand in the two narrow pie slices they have LRM cover from.

LRMs are meager in group queue.

PUG queue with 1 narcer who knows his business and 2 LRM boats and You win the majority of matches. Significant majority.

1LRM boat? Your NARC is still useful - it's a great pug-herder. You don't NARC for LRM effect, you NARC to herd your pugs. You NARC the guy who's off alone or isolated or slow and chat 'the guy I narced is off alone and clearly wants company'.

Then you watch the stampede go kill him. Boomjag, dire whale getting left behind, etc. NARC, sit back, watch your team work.

It just pays garbage for cbills and XP.

Yeah though. NARC and 2 LRM boats on Caustic is pretty much certain death. I've never NARCed someone on Caustic (and I've narced a lot of people on Caustic) and had them come out alive when I've got 2 LRM boats. Even if they squeeze to safety with stripped internals the whole team is after them, smelling blood in the water.

Caustic needs more sporadic LRM cover. Small, one-mech rocks.

[Mordin Ashe]

I regret not saving one screenshot from game like two weeks ago. 4man, one was designated spotter, three were LRM boats. Our lance did 3k damage, 9 kills and basically won the game. LRMs played an important role in it. But were they OP?
Until today we drop and kill enemies left and right with basically anything we can mount to our Mechs, always the best lance. No matter if we take UACs, lasers, SRMs or LRMs, we get the job done. That being sad, the whole enemy team from that match probably had a very, very negative feelings towards LRMs afer we swept the map...

Cherry on top? Not a single AMS was present that day.

So much for the state of LRMs.

[Doctor Proctor]

El Bandito, on 07 July 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

12 LRM mechs? How naive are you to even think such thing can be a common occurrence? Also, there is no surprise that your AMS run out of ammo if only you are the one who brings AMS.

1. AMS is not suppose to be a deterrent, it is suppose to be damage mitigation. More you bring, more effective it is.

2. AMS alone will not eliminate the LRM boats as long as you just hide in one place and never try to engage the enemy. Even if 6 of your teammates have AMS, a push will defeat the LRM boats easily.

3. PGI gave you the easy mode Radar Deprivation module. Use it.

1) I have been in matches thus far with 8 LRM mechs, and the only reason the other 4 weren't running LRMs is because they were IS. As I and others have said with Clans it's just soooo easy to toss a couple of racks of LRMs into your build and let them fly, which is why there is sooooo much LRM spam right now. 12 is not at all outside of the bounds of feasibility once we start getting Clan mechs for CBills or Clan trial mechs that come loaded with LRMs. If you expect 12 mechs to equip AMS to deal with a handful of LRM boats, why would you not equally expect that more people might start bringing LRMs to counter the AMS shield? 12 mechs could stop probably 120 missiles in a volley MAX, so anything over that is still going to hit. So why not just continue in the MWO tradition of going bigger? Bring more LRMs and you will break that AMS shield and drain their ammo even faster.

2) I didn't say AMS would win the fight. The problem though is that when I pop my head out to use my direct fire weapons on the LRM boats, or scoot to the next cover point, I often have multiple LRM boats firing on my position. Yes, once you get under 180m they're totally nerfed, but it's the GETTING to under 180m that is the hard part. Not to mention, even when there's a good opportunity to push (such as the lone Timberwolf that was harrassing us from the flank in the match I mentioned) it can be hard to get the other PUGgies to follow me when the LRMs start flying as soon as we stick our heads out.

3) I do bring Radar Deprivation. Works great, especially when I lose hundreds of rounds of AMS ammo because it's firing at missiles that will harmless miss me after I broke the lock... Yet another reason that I keep running out of ammo.

Oh, and if others bring AMS, guess what happens? All of our AMS units fire at the same volley of missiles until it's entirely destroyed. So if 12 mechs fire at 120 incoming missiles (3 LRM40 launches) and each AMS takes out 10 missiles (which is VERY generous, since previously it was 4-5 per volley, but I haven't run the numbers since the range buff and how it would affect CLRMs, so we'll say 10) then we will all fire continuously for the same amount of time essentially that 1 mech's AMS would fire. So that's 12x the ammo burn. "But you stopped the whole LRM120 volley" you might say, but as I said previously, I ALWAYS run out of AMS ammo. Since I'm still expending essentially the same amount of ammo per volley, I WILL run out of AMS ammo at the same point in the match now. Only now my whole team will as well. Once that happens, the AMS shield is gone, and the LRM boats will still have more ammo left over. If we haven't closed on ALL their LRM boats by that time, then the bombardment will begin again.

Also, I have been in 3,409 matches and own 46 mechs. About 35 of those are completely mastered as well. I AM an experienced player, so don't talk down to me by quoting an "experienced player" like I'm some guy running trial mechs, okay?

[Arcturious]

Yes I love all the people saying I should run different mechs. I have 115 mechs in my bays and every single one except the clans is fully mastered lol

The point isn't that I don't know the counters. The point isn't that I should bring my own ECM.

The point is that I did what was the correct response, got to significant cover and still died from LRM because of a NARC beacon.

One piece of equipment should not be a certain kill. Either NARC needs to be adjusted so the total damage can't kill your mech in one NARC. Or LRM need to be adjusted so they don't clear as much cover.

If you get caught in the open, sure you should either die or take damage. But if you get to cover that should be it, no more LRM.

The solution is simple, PGI just needs to recognise the problem and perform a tweak. NARC should fall off again. IT will still allow for information warfare, targeting of ECM mechs etc. IT should still boost damage when a mech is caught in the open etc. However, by the time that mech gets to cover the NARC should have fallen off or expire. Or if a mech is NARC'ed while behind cover, the incoming LRM should hit the cover, not magically go over the top and rain down regardless.

[ztac]

Well apart from all the 'counters' against LRM not being effective , I was in a match today in a kitfox (3 AMS fitted ) and another player was next to me with 2 x AMS... I had uncountered ECM running and we were still being hit by LRM whilst behind a riverbank.

So just how many AMS do people think you should fit to be effective vs LRM ? 1 AMS for every tube fired at you maybe? But I keep mentioning that there are no hard counters against LRM other than a few types of cover (being in something (tunnel , cave), under something (bridges) or behind exceptionally large buildings/terrain, as the missiles skip over most ingame terrain.

But there seem to be certain types of play in the game that PGI just seem ultra reluctant to touch , some is used by the more experienced players , and thus used by less experienced due their success , others are fitted by people are next to useless at direct fire so they go for the soft option. Let's face it LRM are 'the' soft option for any player new or old as they require little knowledge other than how to fire them.

[Wolfways]

ztac, on 07 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Well apart from all the 'counters' against LRM not being effective , I was in a match today in a kitfox (3 AMS fitted ) and another player was next to me with 2 x AMS... I had uncountered ECM running and we were still being hit by LRM whilst behind a riverbank.

If you had ECM and were getting hit by LRM's you either had a UAV above you, a spotter with TAG looking directly at you, or the missiles were already on the way and you sat there and let them hit you.
Also, what riverbank is good cover?

Quote

So just how many AMS do people think you should fit to be effective vs LRM ? 1 AMS for every tube fired at you maybe? But I keep mentioning that there are no hard counters against LRM other than a few types of cover (being in something (tunnel , cave), under something (bridges) or behind exceptionally large buildings/terrain, as the missiles skip over most ingame terrain.

One or more. AMS are not supposed to shoot down all missiles, they reduce the damage from a salvo.

Quote

But there seem to be certain types of play in the game that PGI just seem ultra reluctant to touch , some is used by the more experienced players , and thus used by less experienced due their success , others are fitted by people are next to useless at direct fire so they go for the soft option. Let's face it LRM are 'the' soft option for any player new or old as they require little knowledge other than how to fire them.

If you really think that LRM's are used by people who are "useless at direct fire" and by "require little knowledge other than how to fire them" you mean they take less skill than direct-fired weapons...well i can't say anything about that really as there are plenty of stupid players.

[OznerpaG]

ztac, on 07 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

But there seem to be certain types of play in the game that PGI just seem ultra reluctant to touch , some is used by the more experienced players , and thus used by less experienced due their success , others are fitted by people are next to useless at direct fire so they go for the soft option. Let's face it LRM are 'the' soft option for any player new or old as they require little knowledge other than how to fire them.

so you'r saying that because people are using something that works well for them that they should be ashamed of themselves for using that something that works well for them

nice....

[El Bandito]

ztac, on 07 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

But there seem to be certain types of play in the game that PGI just seem ultra reluctant to touch , some is used by the more experienced players , and thus used by less experienced due their success , others are fitted by people are next to useless at direct fire so they go for the soft option. Let's face it LRM are 'the' soft option for any player new or old as they require little knowledge other than how to fire them.

Ah, another classic LRM QQer argument--that LRMs take no skill to use. Actually, LRMs do take skill to use, it is just general pug population is dumb enough to offer me clear targets to fire most of the time. If they were slightly bit competent in using cover and tons of other counters, and had actually pushed, I would have used some of those "LRM skills".

Doctor Proctor, on 07 July 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

1) I have been in matches thus far with 8 LRM mechs, and the only reason the other 4 weren't running LRMs is because they were IS.

That logic makes no sense, cause IS mechs are better LRM boats due to FLD. I have yet to see a clan LRM boat get more kills than my 733. Besides, LRM equipped mechs and LRM boats are totally different thing. Mechs with individual launchers are very easy to deal with using AMS due to sporadic firing time.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 08:33 PM.

[MischiefSC]

IS LRM boats out-LURM clan boats... the problem is that I can bring a 90 kph heavy with 40 tubes, the equivalent of 4 large lasers, tag and just shy of 1400 missiles - plus JJs. In terms of what it'll do on the field it's a better boat all around.

[PlzDie]

Sean von Steinike, on 07 July 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Only for people that suck.

I just love uninformed posts like this, why don't you try to wobble a slow ass narced assault to cover on maps like Caustic or Alpine before it is dead, all the while missiles pounding, screen shake so bad that you cannot properly see where you are going. I can see how this can be a problem for some players.
I have used missile boats, and I ran narc on my Raven 3L with at the least two dedicated LRM boats. Let me assure you, you will have no chance getting to cover on any of those two maps in an assault once you are narced.
LRM and Narc is broken, not the missiles or the system itself, they are broken in the way that ECM in this game is all backwards, ECM is supposed to be the counter, not being countered by Narc. Also the amount of missile tubes that can be fitted on a mech is ridicules, ghost heat did nothing to stop boating, so maybe Paul should try hard point restrictions.

[El Bandito]

MischiefSC, on 07 July 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

IS LRM boats out-LURM clan boats... the problem is that I can bring a 90 kph heavy with 40 tubes, the equivalent of 4 large lasers, tag and just shy of 1400 missiles - plus JJs. In terms of what it'll do on the field it's a better boat all around.

You need to lower your armor if you are LRM boating in an assault. My 733 have ARLM15x4 (60 total) with TAG and 2000 ammo + JJs. Granted, it has near 2/3 of the max armor and moves only around 60 kph but I play very carefully. Still kills less than my meta DS though. PPC+AC = King of killing.

Duppie1974, on 07 July 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

I just love uninformed posts like this, why don't you try to wobble a slow ass narced assault to cover on maps like Caustic or Alpine before it is dead, all the while missiles pounding, screen shake so bad that you cannot properly see where you are going. I can see how this can be a problem for some players. I have used missile boats, and I ran narc on my Raven 3L with at the least two dedicated LRM boats. Let me assure you, you will have no chance getting to cover on any of those two maps in an assault once you are narced. LRM and Narc is broken, not the missiles or the system itself, they are broken in the way that ECM in this game is all backwards, ECM is supposed to be the counter, not being countered by Narc. Also the amount of missile tubes that can be fitted on a mech is ridicules, ghost heat did nothing to stop boating, so maybe Paul should try hard point restrictions.

So you are saying LRMs are only situationally powerful, and only shines if the team bringst NARC and the match is on Alpine or Caustic. Blame PGI for making ECM a hard counter to LRMs in the first place.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 10:35 PM.