106 replies to this topic

[Dalton Dakota]

Ovion, on 06 July 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

The 5H is 3025, the 5N is 3062, the 5J is 3050.

Actually, the 5J is a Star League era 'Mech that made its return thanks to the technology information released by GDL. The GHR-C (Kuritian design) was based off the 5J.

[Ovion]

Dalton Dakota, on 08 July 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

Actually, the 5J is a Star League era 'Mech that made its return thanks to the technology information released by GDL. The GHR-C (Kuritian design) was based off the 5J.

Which would mean it's only really available at that point.

But the mech archive I have says 3050 for when it was available, and it's matched up pretty well so far.

[Dalton Dakota]

Ovion, on 08 July 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Which would mean it's only really available at that point.

But the mech archive I have says 3050 for when it was available, and it's matched up pretty well so far.

Oh I understand that; however, I wanted to make the point that the 5J is a Star League 'Mech not something just manufactured in 3050. It's the little details that can be lost in the white noise.

[Ovion]

But yeah, there's no reason not to be able to have the Grasshopper really.

Still need the Urby though.

We need another 30 tonner, and more lights in general, the Urby would be a great addition!

[Dalton Dakota]

Ovion, on 08 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

But yeah, there's no reason not to be able to have the Grasshopper really.

Still need the Urby though.

We need another 30 tonner, and more lights in general, the Urby would be a great addition!

Yeah man, the Urby would be great. An armed walking trashcan of death! lol

I'm looking forward to the day they put Stealth 'Mechs in. Can't wait to get my hands on a Victor, Pillager, and Emperor.

[Ovion]

Dalton Dakota, on 08 July 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Yeah man, the Urby would be great. An armed walking trashcan of death! lol

I'm looking forward to the day they put Stealth 'Mechs in. Can't wait to get my hands on a Victor, Pillager, and Emperor.

shameless plug time Join the Urbie revolution!

And yeah, with Stealth Mechs there's a lot more things that could come in, though sadly a while before my sexy Raptor II can be in game even after that.

So much content, so few people to play tabletop with to actually use it!

[Tim East]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

Here's a quick example, the Hunchback and the Catapult C1 have identical armor. Most Centurions fall short, though Blackjacks have identical armor to Centurions despite being 5 tons lighter. The Centurion AL, however, has the most armor of 50 ton mechs and (unlike the other Centurions, had a local area radar instead of what MWO featured). Sure its 2 arm lasers + 1 CT front laser and 1 CT rear laser are less than favorable, but its armor made up for it.

Now, this is something I'd like to see. All those weird mounted weapons that face backwards/are in leg slots.

Also, the problem with the Urby is that it wouldn't last in the current game for anything. There aren't enough maps that would take advantage of it's ambush capabilities, and even if there were, you'd get stuck with dire wolf speed and hunchie durability on maps like alpine peaks sometimes unless they implemented a map selection option.

Edited by Tim East, 08 July 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Ovion]

Tim East, on 08 July 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Now, this is something I'd like to see. All those weird mounted weapons that face backwards/are in leg slots.

Also, the problem with the Urby is that it wouldn't last in the current game for anything. There aren't enough maps that would take advantage of it's ambush capabilities, and even if there were, you'd get stuck with dire wolf speed and hunchie durability on maps like alpine peaks sometimes unless they implemented a map selection option.

You say that - but try one out.

It's surprisingly resilient, and surprisingly capable of dealing damage.

I'm not the best pilot, and I do OK in it, and my friend does silly good in it (I don't even know how!)

And yes, rear facing and leg weapons are something that would be fantastic.

[Koniving]

Tim East, on 08 July 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Now, this is something I'd like to see. All those weird mounted weapons that face backwards/are in leg slots.

Also, the problem with the Urby is that it wouldn't last in the current game for anything. There aren't enough maps that would take advantage of it's ambush capabilities, and even if there were, you'd get stuck with dire wolf speed and hunchie durability on maps like alpine peaks sometimes unless they implemented a map selection option.

Said armor concept... The prodigy Urban being 192 points of armor in MWO's standards stock. Standard armor max + 96 = 288 armor or with Ferro in said concept... 324. It'd be nice to have Urban mech's upper arm actuator only status to be able to flip the arms forward and back. A good compromise is 360 degree or at least 190 degree torso twist.

Though honestly an Urban mech against a Hunchback is likely to lose, and against a Dire Wolf...c'mon you expect a 30 ton garbage can to compete with a 100 ton Clan mech?

(Read that wrong). It'd be sub-Hunchie durability (more Jagermech with said concept; the weakest armored Jagermech). And sub Dire Wolf speed stock, but likely MWO would give it up to a 250 engine to be fair. My armor concept includes an engine overhaul which would give it a 90 max (but the maxes of many other mechs would go way down). Lordred's TT based overhaul would give it all the same engines a Spider can use.. (30, 60, 90, 120, 150, 180, 210, 240, 270, 300).

Edited by Koniving, 08 July 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[Ovion]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Said armor concept... The prodigy Urban being 192 points of armor in MWO's standards stock. Standard armor max + 96 = 288 armor or with Ferro in said concept... 324. It'd be nice to have Urban mech's upper arm actuator only status to be able to flip the arms forward and back. A good compromise is 360 degree or at least 190 degree torso twist.

Though honestly an Urban mech against a Hunchback is likely to lose, and against a Dire Wolf...c'mon you expect a 30 ton garbage can to compete with a 100 ton Clan mech?

(Read that wrong). It'd be sub-Hunchie durability (more Jagermech with said concept; the weakest armored Jagermech). And sub Dire Wolf speed stock, but likely MWO would give it up to a 250 engine to be fair. My armor concept includes an engine overhaul which would give it a 90 max (but the maxes of many other mechs would go way down). Lordred's TT based overhaul would give it all the same engines a Spider can use.. (30, 60, 90, 120, 150, 180, 210, 240, 270, 300).

I need to poke the guy for the video he was making, cos he took to recording the matches because it's so damn silly and he didn't even believe it....

I'm trying to remember what the biggest thing he killed was... pretty sure it was an assault.

[Tim East]

Like I said, the current game. I'm actually acutely fond of Kon's armor restriction idea, since I feel it'd breathe new life into some of the older mechs, and enforce a bit more variation in loadout. Plus make the urbie relevant in an up-close and punishing way.

[Koniving]

Ovion, on 08 July 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

I need to poke the guy for the video he was making, cos he took to recording the matches because it's so damn silly and he didn't even believe it....

I'm trying to remember what the biggest thing he killed was... pretty sure it was an assault.

One thing truly favoring the Urban mechs (in tabletop/megamek) is that their slow speed keeps their hit chance rolls very high.

Edited by Koniving, 08 July 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[Ryoken]

I do not know if this idea was allready mentioned or maybe would cause problems I do not see yet but...

In old Battletech TT times we always compared the Grasshopper to the Guillotine. So if a mech has not enoug variants, why not let this mech be leveled together with another mech that also lacks enough variants?

Would it help to combine Grasshopper and Guillotine to get enough variants to level them?

[PANZERKAT]

They should do away with any reservations about timeline. It means nothing and only puts obstacles in their way.

When community warfare starts, they should give out rewards for mechs people use that were traditionally available in that time line. As simple as an "EARLY-MID-LATE" technology tag on a mech that becomes lit up when the bonus is applied.

That would be nice.

[RLBell]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

Tabletop. Stock values.
[snip]

If we simply took the stock armor of all mechs and added 3 tons (96 points in MWO), the results would be amazing and yet even the wimpiest armored mechs would be able to equip enough armor to survive.

[snip]

You do know that there is a Jagermech variant where the 96 points only increases the armor to fifty points above what ravens run with (stock armor + 40 points), and you can hit jagermechs.

[Koniving]

RLBell, on 09 July 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

You do know that there is a Jagermech variant where the 96 points only increases the armor to fifty points above what ravens run with (stock armor + 40 points), and you can hit jagermechs.

There's Ravens with stock armor superior to certain 80 ton mechs. Point? Ravens carry some of the strongest armor of light mechs. They also happen to outdo at least 4 of the seven currently available Shadowhawks.

Meanwhile Ravens absolutely suck at just about everything, and the one that doesn't, already has ferro armor so it will be forever stuck at 162 + 108 = 270.

Meanwhile that lowest Jager gets 288 as a max and thus has incredible weight savings for a standard engine of 300, 3 AC/5s and LOTS of ammo when you're running around with endo steel. It'll live longer than any current Jagermech under direct fire, even with less armor, because you're not cramming so damn much weight into said armor.

But, the lowest Jager doesn't come stock with Ferro.
192 points is 6.0 tons standard (96 points is 3 tons standard) so the max is 9.0 tons. Well then switch to Ferro. 6.0 tons ferro is 216, and 9.0 tons of ferro armor is 324. A Jagermech can get away with this easily due to its lack of a need for heatsinks.

So while a Raven 4X will easily outclass it in armor... (by 1 ton in armor, that's 32 standard or 36 ferro), do you honestly think a Raven 4X could match its firepower? And the Raven 4x is a very isolated tidbit of competition. Many mechs outclass a Jagermech in armor in canon lore, after all it's an anti-air and fire support battlemech, not a bullet stopper. It's a second to third line support mech in a company (3 lances), firing from afar. Not a twin AC/20 monster like it is now; in fact after these changes the K2 would again be the 65-tonner mech of choice for twin AC/20, restoring reasons in having Catapults.

It boils down to choices. The Jagermech S is chosen for firepower, range, and hill humping. It isn't meant to be chosen for its armor.

Ironically the Jagermech DD gets almost the same armor, because it had 6.5 tons in ferro armor (234 stock ferro, 208 stock standard; identical to a Raven 2x). At 9.5 tons as the new max it's (342 ferro) (304 standard).

But if you want decent armor protection in a Jagermech, you go to the JM6-A; the runt that no one likes... and that there is a Jagermech that can tank some shots with 8 tons of armor stock. That's 256 standard, 288 ferro.

See what I did there?
I made every variant useful. Even the unwanted and disliked.
It also gives you reasons to run lighter mechs. Sure, the 55 tonners are good, but a Hunchback is superior to all but 1 Shadowhawk in regards to armor, so it becomes a tossup... Jumpjets and ammo-based backup weapons, or much better armor with energy based backup weapons? Kintaro versus Griffin, believe it or not the least armored Kintaro has identical armor to the most armored Griffin. So between two similar mechs, prefer armor or jumpjets? Between most Locusts and a Jenner D, it's really a choice of speed (Locust) over firepower and jumpjets (Jenner).

Every mech has a use. That's the goal. Tabletop does great with it in stock loadouts. MWO's been awful.

So if you take this idea and slap it on every mech (as it's stock + 3 tons to all mechs), it will preserve all stock armor ratios to keep the characteristics of every mech. In turn, every mech will have its own unique armor traits. Combined with hardpoints as we have, engine limits, etc., you'll get kind of an enhanced feeling of tabletop. That's the idea, instead of lots of similar 'clones' of the same mech with different skins.


(Besides, honestly there's a 30 ton mech with equal armor, there's a 100 ton mech with less armor than a Jager... it just keeps going and going; but if that 100 ton battlemech ever got into MWO, you'd want it to have so little armor because the damn thing would one shot Atlases.)

(edit: Had an armor tonnage wrong. Added Jagermech A's armor tonnage and armor values with armor concept).

Another thing commonly mentioned is how the Cataphract 3D is the best one.
At 11 tons of armor (CTF 3D's stock armor btw) at 352 standard or 396 ferro. The Cataphract 2X (70 ton mech), the most unloved Cataphract ever created.. is stock 416, identical to the most armored Dragon and the most armored 65 ton Thunderbolt. It's only half a ton short of the most armored Stalker (85 ton). At 13 tons of armor, that means it'll always be 2 tons of armor better than a 3D, and the 2X is just a shrimpy middle ground with maxes between 512 standard and 576 ferro with this idea. The Cataphract 4X has 14 tons according to Sarna. It's not even possible to put 14 tons of armor onto the 4X in MWO. It is not possible.
With this concept it would be.

Edited by Koniving, 14 July 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Koniving, on 09 July 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

Lots of information about how Ravens would be bad, which I liked reading, but has no point with what I'm going to say.

(Besides, honestly there's a 30 ton mech with equal armor, there's a 100 ton mech with less armor than a Jager... it just keeps going and going; but if that 100 ton battlemech ever got into MWO, you'd want it to have so little armor because the damn thing would one shot Atlases.)

Annihilator, I assume? Yeah, if that thing comes in-game with the armor system as it is, then it would become the #1 priority target instantly. Forget ECM mechs. Forget metatarts. Forget the LRM100 Stalkers. The Annihilator would be capable of liquifying almost any mech with sheer firepower, and at range too. Whereas, with your armor fixes, so many of the mechs currently "extinct" would regain places in the battlefield, such as Awesome.

Really, the only thing that would save the Locust is more speed and/or more competition in it's weight bracket. Even with your armor fixes, there's not much that could happen for it.

[Gasoline]

Tarriss Halcyon, on 10 July 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Annihilator

The Annihilator C2 to be precise. 256 points of standard armor (which is slightly more than a Jager - 8t). 4 Clan Gauss Rifles, 1 Clan ER PPC, 1 Clan ER Small Laser. There you go. The other one being the Gausszilla with just 6,75t of armor (but 5 Gauss Rifles). Both would break the game tho, so we'll most likely (thankfully) never see them.

Along the armor concept, Kon also has an engine revamp ongoing, which would seriously buff the Locust. The Locust would be the fastest mech bar none. I highly doubt we'll see the Flea or FireMoth anytime soon, because their maximum speed with MASC would break the capabilities of the CryEngine. Not to say that the FireMoth's lag shield would be epic.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tarriss Halcyon, on 10 July 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Annihilator, I assume?

It carries that name for a reason!

Gasoline, on 10 July 2014 - 01:43 AM, said:

Not to say that the FireMoth's lag shield would be epic.

And on a similar line of thought - there is a reason the IS called it the Dasher!

[Koniving]

Tarriss Halcyon, on 10 July 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Annihilator, I assume? Yeah, if that thing comes in-game with the armor system as it is, then it would become the #1 priority target instantly. Forget ECM mechs. Forget metatarts. Forget the LRM100 Stalkers. The Annihilator would be capable of liquifying almost any mech with sheer firepower, and at range too. Whereas, with your armor fixes, so many of the mechs currently "extinct" would regain places in the battlefield, such as Awesome.

Really, the only thing that would save the Locust is more speed and/or more competition in it's weight bracket. Even with your armor fixes, there's not much that could happen for it.

Not Annihilator, it has 400 points of armor (Cataphracts 4X, Muromets [it's BT friendly], 2X easily match to outclass it. All Orions outclass it. Dragon 1C, Thunderbolts outclass it.. Quite a few mechs really outdo it in armor).

Nope. The one I'm thinking of carries two axes as its backups and 4 HAGs. So you know, a HAG is a Hyper Assault Gauss rifle and in MWO's double-armor standard would have 208 points of armor (Raven 2X, Firestarter A stock armors, 0.5 tons more than a Urban Mech or Jagermech S). The axes...are a bit of a joke to be honest, but hey I mean it's a Wizkidz mech. They haven't got much of a clue as to what they're doing.

A Locust with 224 armor can't be saved? That's just standard. 128 + 96 = 224. With Ferro 4 tons of armor is 144, + 108 (3 tons) is 252. That's ALMOST as much as a stock Blackjack and stock Blackjacks can take a beating with those standard engines. The problem here is unlike the Jagermech, you can't possibly run that much armor and decent weapons too well so you'd have to choose between speed or armor. Thankfully with worst Locust variant (1 ton stock, 4 tons max) you can have speed + your max armor + weapons. Sure it can't compete with the other Locusts in armor, but you'll have them beat in firepower at the very least.

I can run a Jenner with 128 armor just fine and it's hitboxes are suicidal compared to the Locust's well balanced hitboxes. You know with 128 armor and a standard engine a Locust can take impressive abuse. It's the XL engines that screw it, that and the leg armor. But a Locust's leg hitboxes are 1.3 times fatter than the legs.

More speed won't save jack. That's just relying on bad hit detection; if you want to save Locusts you make everything else slower.
At 129 kph stock, the Locust should be the fastest thing in MWO. But the Commando is...(why?). If you go by stock speeds, the Commando and the Jenner should have identical speeds...they also have identical armors across most variants with superior firepower on the Commando and superior structure and jumping ability in favor of the Jenners. (To note: Locusts have better armor potential than the Jenner K; meaning we need a little hardpoint inflation for it. They have identical armor potential to Jenner D and two Commandos, but outclass two other Commandos. Locusts also have identical armor to 2 out of 4 Cicadas.)

Peer at most of the mech stock speeds for a moment.. Something's godawful wrong there, too.
I might also add that not even 1% of battlemechs can achieve 150+ kph without MASC, without costing far too much and having no armor.

With speed tweak removed, the Locust would only reach 153.9 kph. In fact, the highest engine the Locust can take is 220, and that's with 4 tons to work with. And that would only get you (by MWO's standards without speed tweak) 178.2 kph (with speed tweak 196.02) In TT's standards it'd be 183.6 kph.
Locust LCT-Kon-Custom
IS TW non-box set
20 tons
BV: 799
Cost: 3,304,000 C-bills
Source: Succession Wars

Movement: 11/17
Engine: 220 XL
Double Heat Sinks: 10 [20]
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Speed tweak's got to go, it's why so many assaults and heavies are so damn fast. But anyway, Locust, Spider, and Cicada all have equal speeds in TT. In MWO Cicada is slower than dog feces, the Spider is eh and the Locust is eh.

What's HILARIOUS, is the Locust has with one exception, more armor than Every Spider in existence. Funny isn't it?

Anyway.. It'd be amazing how much more diverse the game would be, and how very important the forsaken design pillar "Role Warfare" would actually become in this game.