84 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 08 July 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

The only problem with extending the cool downs on PPCs and Gauss Rifles is that it then promotes more Lrg Lasers and still does nothing about multiple ACs. I don't like Ghost Heat but I get the point of it. I wouldn't mind a longer cool down on the biggest weapons in the game with the longest ranges in the game. But, ultimately, MWO needs a combination of cool down adjustments, ghost heat, and overall heat penalties. We currently only have one which is why we've got awful combinations like PPCs/AC/GRs. The whole point of checks and balances is to keep any one part from creating advantage over the others.

Honestly? If we're doing band-aid fixes, I don't mind if it moves to multiple AC's and Large Lasers. You can't poptart with them, and you have to face your target for long periods to do damage unless you are using AC10 or AC20 which are short range.

So if the meta goes from PPC/Gauss to Large Lasers (which have a nasty ghost heat penalty as is) or Trip AC5/Dual AC20 I'm VERY ok with that.

[Gyrok]

Livewyr, on 08 July 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Real Solution? Drop the RoF of both PPCs and Gauss by almost half.. 7s and 8s respectively. It is absurd they have among the longest ranges in the game, and yet fire as quickly as the SRMs and AC20...

Gauss has a SLOWER ROF than AC20 because you are not accounting for the charge up. Gauss is technically 4.75 with charge up making it the worst DPS ballistic of all of them.

In other words, GAUSS IS FINE, LEAVE IT ALONE!

As for PPCs, IS regular PPCs need more heat, yes...they are OP and put out ridiculous DPS.

C/ERPPC are so freaking hot that they are only used on builds specifically designed to do one thing...put damage to one place. Those builds do not do much DPS, they cannot feasibly do so...they are designed around the gimmick of 5-ish seconds downtime, then *POW*...then hide.

To the rest of the YAY! GHOST HEAT crowd:

So, let us get hypothetical here for 1 moment, shall we?

Let us say that Gauss + C/ERPPC has ghost heat equivalent to an extra ERPPC, that means that when you fire 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPC you will end up with 2 + 45 = 47 Heat.

Well, that does not work, because they can technically do that again in another 5 seconds when things come back from cooldown timers. So they could still do 100 damage before heat was an issue in 2 volleys.

What if we double it? That would be 2 + 60 = 62 heat...hmm...considering that Dire Wolf build can do 107 heat before shutdown, that means that in 5 seconds when things come off cool down, you could probably still get 1 more off and shut down on that shot with virtually no damage to internals for 100 damage put out.

Well...what if we triple it? 2 + 75 = 77 heat...hmm...ok...well...we cannot possibly get 2 off in 2 cooldowns now...however, they can still fire 2 Gauss rifles immediately after for a total of 80 damage output in 2 cooldowns.

Get the point yet?

GHOST HEAT DOES NOT FIX ANY OF THIS, IT NEVER HAS, NOR WILL IT EVER. IT IS A TERRIBLE MECHANIC THAT ONLY WORKS FOR EDGE CASES IN SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES.

GHOST HEAT != A FIX FOR CONVERGENCE OR PP FLD.

Now that school is out, go smash face with AC/PPC or whatever you are going to do...

Edited by Gyrok, 08 July 2014 - 12:31 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I ran a basics only Cent with gauss and an erll last night. Longer cooldown would eliminate that completely. Only way to make ppcs/gauss viable then is to boat. Otherwise any other weapon is better. Longer cool down is an issue for 50 pt dwolf but not a real fix, hes fragile up close and 1 shot kill at range. That is still the issue. 4ppc stalker were the same.

Collateral damage for doing band-aid fixes. If getting rid of poptarts gets rid of THAT particular Cent? I'm good with that.

And I DO NOT CARE ABOUT DIRE WOLVES. You are comparing it to the wrong Stalker. The 4 PPC Stalker was scary, because of it's hill humping ability.

The Dire Wolf is more like the 6 PPC Stalker, if you are dumb, you die to it. If you are smart you can kill it.

The Dire Wolf has to expose a huge amount of itself to do it's damage. And it's just slow as freaking dirt.

Totally a bad comparison.

[Trauglodyte]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 July 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Honestly? If we're doing band-aid fixes, I don't mind if it moves to multiple AC's and Large Lasers. You can't poptart with them, and you have to face your target for long periods to do damage unless you are using AC10 or AC20 which are short range.

So if the meta goes from PPC/Gauss to Large Lasers (which have a nasty ghost heat penalty as is) or Trip AC5/Dual AC20 I'm VERY ok with that.

I get what you're saying. The down side, though, to extending the cool down on PPCs is it actually makes them more heat friendly. 10/15 heat every 4s is pretty tough for only one but worse the more you add. 10/15 heat every 7s, though, is a lot more manageable. Would that have a heavy impact on the game in the long run? Eh, I don't know. Then again, I think the entire community agrees that we could stand to have cool downs lengthened. Hell, for that matter, I'd be happy if they took the Clan weapon characteristics, applied them to the IS, and then increase the beam durations and cool downs on Clan weapons even worse.

[Gyrok]

Something I think many of you are missing...

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A META!!!

It may not be what it is now, but there will be something else that becomes the metagame. This will never change. So if you wish that the metagame would go away all together and never be seen again. Forget that, because that is a pipe dream.


SO THE QUESTION BECOMES:

WHAT WOULD YOU RATHER IT BE, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT IT IS NOW?

Once you have an answer to that, you can figure out how to address the meta issue we have now and determine what changes to make it different. Because it will always be there...

Do you want LRMageddon (think CB) back?
Do you want Lasergeddon?
Do you want SRMageddon?
Do you want Dakkageddon?
Do you want PPCageddon?

What should it be?

Edited by Gyrok, 08 July 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 08 July 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

I get what you're saying. The down side, though, to extending the cool down on PPCs is it actually makes them more heat friendly. 10/15 heat every 4s is pretty tough for only one but worse the more you add. 10/15 heat every 7s, though, is a lot more manageable. Would that have a heavy impact on the game in the long run? Eh, I don't know. Then again, I think the entire community agrees that we could stand to have cool downs lengthened. Hell, for that matter, I'd be happy if they took the Clan weapon characteristics, applied them to the IS, and then increase the beam durations and cool downs on Clan weapons even worse.

Heat isn't the major issue for poptarts. As they sit behind a wall and have time to cool down. I guess maybe the Timberwolf does, but they might become a non-issue shortly with the jump jet changes. They don't have the spare tonnage for extra jump jets without going with almost no ammo.

The problem is, once a brawler gets to him, the poptart is still putting 30 damage alphas into the brawler, until the brawler is literally face humping him.

If you put a 7 or 8 second cooldown, brawling becomes VERY difficult for someone with 2 PPC's and a Gauss.

Gyrok, on 08 July 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A META!!!

Can you please just stop posting.

It's not about getting rid of meta. It's about making sure that the best build and the worst build aren't so far apart.

Right now the best build (jump sniper) is WAY too good all the way around, and no other builds are really close. And the ones that are close are just variations, using FLD.

So FLD needs to be brought down to earth, so if someone is choosing between SRMs, LRMs, PPCs, Lasers and ACs it's a REAL choice. And not you purposely gimping yourself to get away from the stale meta.

So please just go away.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 08 July 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So I am going to say it again.

I would love a more comprehensive heat/ppfld/convergence fix. Baring that though, ghost heat works without breaking anything else.

[Cest7]

Interesting....

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

So I am going to say it again.

I would love a more comprehensive heat/ppfld/convergence fix. Baring that though, ghost heat works without breaking anything else.

Once again, doesn't fix it unless you are going to bring it to all AC's. Are you good with that?

[MischiefSC]

Going to have to wait to post more until home. Using this siye from mobile is like slapping a badger with me nut saxk. Mabe less enjoyable.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Going to have to wait to post more until home. Using this siye from mobile is like slapping a badger with me nut saxk. Mabe less enjoyable.

That's fine. I mean I'm good with Ghost Heat between PPC's and all other FLD PP weapons. If we want to go that route. It's not elegant, but what the hell.

[MischiefSC]

agreed.

[Archon]

Blacksoul1987, on 08 July 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

drawbacks or not gauss+ppc is beast

Only because clan ACs fire in burst fire. There will always be a top weapon / weapon combo. PGI can continue nerfing weapons into the ground, the meta will change, and people will clamor for nerfs for whatever is the next top weapon. It will continue down until flamers and machine gun combos are the most OP in the game; people will still complain about it. It's the reason gauss rifles were given a charge time and AC's were nerfed (for IS) and made burst fire (for clans) to begin with.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Archon, on 08 July 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Only because clan ACs fire in burst fire. There will always be a top weapon / weapon combo. PGI can continue nerfing weapons into the ground, the meta will change, and people will clamor for nerfs for whatever is the next top weapon. It will continue down until flamers and machine gun combos are the most OP in the game; people will still complain about it. It's the reason gauss rifles were given a charge time and AC's were nerfed (for IS) and made burst fire (for clans) to begin with.

All the nerfs to AC's and Gauss, and the prevailing meta is still....PPC's with AC's and Gauss.

You are buying into stupid people who post on the boards.

Smart people are just looking for some semblence of balance. That means some nerfing (PP FLD) and some buffing (Pulse Laser) with a hint of changing stupid mechanics and reworking the weapons from the ground up (LRMs/ECM/NARC).

It's not about weakening every weapon so they all suck, unless you are dumb.

[Mcgral18]

Archon, on 08 July 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Only because clan ACs fire in burst fire. There will always be a top weapon / weapon combo. PGI can continue nerfing weapons into the ground, the meta will change, and people will clamor for nerfs for whatever is the next top weapon. It will continue down until flamers and machine gun combos are the most OP in the game; people will still complain about it. It's the reason gauss rifles were given a charge time and AC's were nerfed (for IS) and made burst fire (for clans) to begin with.

It's not so much the weapons as the damage mechanic.

And they changed it for the cUACs. They don't feel very OP, do they?

That's because they don't concentrate their damage to a single location.

[Archon]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 July 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

All the nerfs to AC's and Gauss, and the prevailing meta is still....PPC's with AC's and Gauss.

You are buying into stupid people who post on the boards.

Smart people are just looking for some semblence of balance. That means some nerfing (PP FLD) and some buffing (Pulse Laser) with a hint of changing stupid mechanics and reworking the weapons from the ground up (LRMs/ECM/NARC).

It's not about weakening every weapon so they all suck, unless you are dumb.

Actually, for the IS, gauss was definitely no longer meta once the charge time was added; everyone went to ACs. The only reason meta clans would choose Gauss is because their AC's, being burst fire, are weaker in comparison.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Don't like ghost heat because your stalker can't fire 6 PPC's in an alpha like it used to?

Fire your 6 PPC's, one-at-a-time to avoid it.

How long will it take for people to figure that out? :/

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 08 July 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Archon, on 08 July 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Actually, for the IS, gauss was definitely no longer meta once the charge time was added; everyone went to ACs. The only reason meta clans would choose Gauss is because their AC's, being burst fire, are weaker in comparison.

Clan Gauss is exactly the same, and people have been using it to devastating effect.

People switched from the Gauss because they were lazy. Or it didn't fit in the main meta mech.

I Zeratul I, on 08 July 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Don't like ghost heat because your stalker can't fire 6 PPC's in an alpha like it used to? Fire your 6 PPC's, one-at-a-time to avoid it. How long will it take for people to figure that out? :/ .

6 Chain Fired PPC's aren't scary. I will make sure 1 hits my arm, another hits a side torso, another hits a CT and i'll probably take 1 to the legs due to JJ.

Spreading 60 damage all over my mech isn't scary.

But when you put 60 damage into one tiny spot via a single button click, that's more dangerous.

Once again though, the 6 PPC stalker is a joke mech.

4 PPC stalkers were the scary ones.

[Gyrok]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 July 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Heat isn't the major issue for poptarts. As they sit behind a wall and have time to cool down. I guess maybe the Timberwolf does, but they might become a non-issue shortly with the jump jet changes. They don't have the spare tonnage for extra jump jets without going with almost no ammo.

The problem is, once a brawler gets to him, the poptart is still putting 30 damage alphas into the brawler, until the brawler is literally face humping him.

If you put a 7 or 8 second cooldown, brawling becomes VERY difficult for someone with 2 PPC's and a Gauss.



Can you please just stop posting.

It's not about getting rid of meta. It's about making sure that the best build and the worst build aren't so far apart.

Right now the best build (jump sniper) is WAY too good all the way around, and no other builds are really close. And the ones that are close are just variations, using FLD.

So FLD needs to be brought down to earth, so if someone is choosing between SRMs, LRMs, PPCs, Lasers and ACs it's a REAL choice. And not you purposely gimping yourself to get away from the stale meta.

So please just go away.

Actually, my thoughts run toward many things being ways to curb the current advantage, however, many of these things are not that much better than alternatives now...people complain because jump snipers this and that.

Frankly, some people like that tactic and would do it if all else was still equal. Many of those players being really skilled pilots, which inflates the issue as it stands.

I can tell you right now, in the pub group queue, and even more of our comp drops, it has really been less and less an issue. Teams are brawling again!!! However, there are some posts in this very thread talking about getting rid of the meta. I wanted to clarify for those people...there will always be a meta game. Just so that there is no confusion, because some people seem to think that you can have a perfectly balanced game...it will never happen. You can have a closer gap as you insist...however, I am still not entirely convinced that everyone posting in this thread realizes that not everything will be balanced completely even keel across the board at any time, ever...

As for the asinine tone, how about you come off it? It had to be said.

[MischiefSC]

Okay. So in more detail -

Ghost Heat happened in response to a bad time. 4,5,6 PPC stalkers, 5 and 6 LL builds were bad too (but not nearly so much so). Boomjags comprised about 60% of every match, because they were stupidly powerful compared to anything and everything else.

So we got Ghost Heat. It was far from anyones favorite mechanic because it felt contrived and arbitrary and unintuitive.

It did, however, work. Immediately and completely. This was the rise of the Gauss+2 or 3xPPC meta, because 35pts is enough to one-shot a cockpit. The gauss charge-up mechanic severed that connection, moving it to 2xUAC5s, because the DPS convergence with the PPCs.

Yes, we would all like a comprehensive fix to convergence - except all the casual players, who would likely hate it. Yes, we would all like a heat system overhaul with heat penalties - except the casuals, who would probably hate it. There are a lot of comprehensive rebuilds of the combat system that might do a world of good. We've got a glimpse of that with the Clan weapons, they are incredibly fun to use and far, far better balanced than the IS ones and seem to offer a wider range of options. LBX and UACs both useful in different roles, LRMs and SRMs. Still tweaks needed but they came out of the gate better than IS weapons were after years of balancing.

Ghost Heat however, works. It did the job it was intended to do - prevent the boating of specific weapon loadouts that were creating issues without having to fundamentally alter those weapons which would, in turn, impact every build using the weapon - good and bad.

So.... Ghost Heat. Put Gauss in with PPCs. Maybe put PPCs in with all ACs? I'm not sure on that one - the 30pts of 2xAC5+PPCs isn't that bad, especially given how off the convergence of the projectiles are. AC10+PPCs isn't a big deal, nor AC20.

A 50pt PPFLD hit though is exactly the sort of thing Ghost Heat was created to fix, because it sucks. I get that the Dire Wolf is a whale to pilot. The dakka and laser builds it carries though melt face very effectively. Maybe it needs some more maneuverability if you're not going to let it one-shot anything under a heavy and two or 3 shot everything from a heavy on up.

That needs addressed now though and not when it comprises 25-35% of every single match - which it will when it's out for cbills. Also the Annihilator and Mauler and several other mechs that would end up the same way if it's not addressed now.

Just pull the trigger. We've already got a working fix available. Not every solution needs to reinvent the wheel.