Not sure if I understand the graphic right, but single jumpjet can still grant you 60% of the height as 5 of its kind? so 5x as much used tonnage for 40% extra? Seems not really good. at leats not after you said that you didn't liked a single one being so good.
Especially for clanmechs with a fixed amount of JJ's this seems like they still have a fixed waste of tonnage while most 1 JJ mechs will still be fine. Either the graph is made not really good or the single JJ is still way to efficient.
Edited by Lily from animove, 09 July 2014 - 02:15 AM.
If the vertical axis didn't have the height in meters, but instead a force generated by JJs, it would actually make a sense.
There's a fixed amount of force necessary to overcome the gravity before the mech starts to rise. That amount is constant regardless of number of jumpjet thrusters, and subtracting it from the graph to get the actual jump height would create a much better example with better scaling per jumpjet. It would be possible for 1 JJ to reach ~5.5m, for 2 JJs to reach ~11m, etc.
You know, just like it says in Mechlab.
The graph just confirms the existing flawed system and that PGI decided not to change it, only nerf it with added heat (which does not really affect poptarts, but it's going to be a hell for my JJ medium brawlers...)
Doesn't fix poptarting, doesn't simplify how jump jets work. Doesn't do anything but obfuscate the game further.
How is this much of a fix, really?
Did you not read the post ?
Quite apart form the fact that it will bring the cost of poptarting up, it's designed to make the game more realistic and involving for pilots. You know... a bit more like a sim.
How is that a bad thing ?
XX Sulla XX, on 08 July 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:
We did not think you wanted to remove it but make it less OP so it did not dominate high ELO game play so much.
That's the idea behind these changes. Given how fine tuned a lot of jump sniping builds the extra heat and tonnage will be noticeable. Not to mention that with slower climb rates countersniping will be easier.
We'll have to see how it works in full though. To me personally all the changes made recently look very good and will make the game more fun in the long term.
Lily from animove, on 09 July 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:
Not sure if I understand the graphic right, but single jumpjet can still grant you 60% of the height as 5 of its kind? so 5x as much used tonnage for 40% extra? Seems not really good. at leats not after you said that you didn't liked a single one being so good.
Especially for clanmechs with a fixed amount of JJ's this seems like they still have a fixed waste of tonnage while most 1 JJ mechs will still be fine. Either the graph is made not really good or the single JJ is still way to efficient.
What the graph does not show is the rate of climb. What makes a huge difference is whether you can go to 5m in 1.5 seconds or 3 seconds.
These thrust scaling mechanics were already applied to the Highlander (the class I Jump Jets to exact). Think of how significant the difference was when playing the HGN before and after that change. A similar system will now apply to all mechs.
For example, the Summoner actually just got a buff because it's large number of JJs is now much more relevant then it was before.
WTF? "Based on Engine size"? Aren't JJs a separate entity? Why do you tie them with engine size? In TT Jumping MP was solely dependent on JJ number (though max number to be carried was dictated by engine size).
Also, will same class JJs have different efficiency on mechs with different tonnage? For example, Class IV on 45-ton BlackJack vs Class IV on 55-tonners?
WTF? "Based on Engine size"? Aren't JJs a separate entity? Why do you tie them with engine size? In TT Jumping MP was solely dependent on JJ number (though max number to be carried was dictated by engine size).
Also, will same class JJs have different efficiency on mechs with different tonnage? For example, Class IV on 45-ton BlackJack vs Class IV on 55-tonners?
Have to disagree.
As you said - the number of JJs a mech can carrie is dependend on the engine size,
In mwo you have "dynamic" engines and a variant fixed number of jump jets. So to bring the level of thrust in line with the engine size is a good idea.
So 4 JumpJets of Class IV on a 45t Mech with a 4/6/4 rating (180engine) may have the same "climb rate" as a 55t Mech with a 220 engine (4/6/4) - but a 45t Mech with 4 JJs would have a better climb rate over a 55t Mech with 4 JumpJets when both Mechs use the same 180 engine.
This is great - and the reason while i'm so curious about other design decisions - that look so shallow brained on the paper.
OK - there is still a difference.
If i "FEEL" in game that the additional thrust of 4 JJs on my Heavy Metal is worth additional 8tons and 4 criticals - are worth the afford - even if i knew that i get 2x times the heat and only 2x times the thrust of a single jump jet - than the tweaking may be successfull.
Anyhow - good balance should always have a good theoretical foundation.
WTF? "Based on Engine size"? Aren't JJs a separate entity? Why do you tie them with engine size? In TT Jumping MP was solely dependent on JJ number (though max number to be carried was dictated by engine size).
Also, will same class JJs have different efficiency on mechs with different tonnage? For example, Class IV on 45-ton BlackJack vs Class IV on 55-tonners?
I'm sorry, where does it say JJ performance will be base on engine size ?
"Jump Jet Thrust changes culminate into a change in gameplay dynamics in keeping 'Mechs feeling heavy and more tank-like. The way everything was playing out was that 'Mechs felt more like light and agile exoskeletons"
I kinda thought the whole point of many mechs was that they were more agile than big, tank-like, shambling things. What's the point of a Spider, Jenner, or even the poor Locust, if they can't be light and agile?
And what engineer would design a battlemech with lots of jump-jets but fail to build legs that could handle the stresses of landing (or even just running around)? Must be the same guy who makes flamers heat the shooter up more than the target.
Sigh...
Engineers that would rely on the jumpjets to be used to soften the landing toward the end of their available thrust.
Even in tabletop, the only time you weren't going for a softer landing is in death from above attacks.
In the several I've seen on megamek, the results are hilariously awful.
In one case, after making an attempt to do a death from above attack, a Highlander immediately stripped its armor on one leg and half of the armor on the other, after landing and falling forward. There was also a broken hand actuator involved in the landing and it broke its autocannon. It managed to get up and try again, only to fail and this time break a leg. It never got up again. Though it tried 3 times until finally it was finished off.
In another case, a Timber Wolf S made several attempts and though attempts failed, there were successful landing rolls keeping it from hurting itself too bad but each landing was very hard on the legs. When it finally did succeed, it broke its legs and was forced to continue fighting from the prone position. Btw you shouldn't try to DFA an Atlas in a 75 ton mech.
My favorite though was after a soft landing.. Trebuchet tried to jump on a multi-story building. I did it because I jump on buildings all the time in MWO and absolutely nothing happens.
Here, the Trebuchet upon landing on the building softly...still crushed it as it wasn't strong enough to support the 50 ton battlemech.
Spoiler
"Movement Phase
-------------------
Building #20512 collapses due to heavy load.
Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) is hit by falling debris for 4 damage.
Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) takes 4 damage to CT.
18 Armor remaining.
Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) falls 3 level(s) into hex 1109
Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) falls on its front, suffering 20 damage.
Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LL.
10 Armor remaining.
Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RT.
6 Armor remaining.
Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RA.
5 Armor remaining.
Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RT.
1 Armor remaining.
Pilot of Trebuchet TBT-7M (Koniving) "Jamie Wynn" must roll 7 to avoid damage; rolls 9 : succeeds.
Stormcrow H-UK (Lordred) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 1508 (running & turning on pavement).
Needs 3 [4 (Base piloting skill) - 1 (running & turning on pavement)], rolls 10 : succeeds.
During Round 8, 1 minute and 10 seconds to 1 minute and 20 seconds into the match, Koniving tries to land onto a building to use it to spot an enemy force.
The building collapses and the mech falls through 3 stories (9 meters). The building crashing around it.
Note that a mech (in Battletech) is never much taller than 14 meters and a Trebuchet is about 11 meters [it is in lore a very tall medium mech so it can fire its LRMs over hills and small buildings].
Just moments after this occurred, an enemy Stormcrow is spotted overlooking the Trebuchet. The Kintaro immediately comes out of hiding to provide support while the Trebuchet while the pilot recovers enough to attempt to stand."
That poor Kintaro...
---------------
Movement Phase
-------------------
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 0908 (running & turning on pavement).
Needs 4 [5 (Base piloting skill) - 1 (running & turning on pavement)], rolls 7 : succeeds.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving from hex 1008 to hex 1109 (entering Rubble).
Needs 5 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (entering Rubble)], rolls 4 : falls.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) falls 0 level(s) into hex 1109
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) falls on its left side, suffering 6 damage.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LT.
13 Armor remaining.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) takes 1 damage to CT.
7 Armor remaining.
Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" must roll 5 to avoid damage; rolls 4 : fails.
Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" takes 1 damage.
Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 8 : successful!
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check (getting up).
Needs 5 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (getting up)], rolls 9 : succeeds.
Cattlemaster CTL-2 (Hunter) (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 0713 (running & turning on pavement).
Needs 4 [5 (Base piloting skill) - 1 (running & turning on pavement)], rolls 7 : succeeds.
----------
....Also I totally want a Cattlemaster.
Now, that said...
(Edit: PGI has fixed this problem with an unmentioned server-side patch. But this was a huge problem with it.)
What we have in MWO is a problem. The game does not have true gravity. Falls are not accelerating, they have a certain number of set fall speeds which simply exist.
Right now, "30 f/s" can be achieved by simply falling 1 meter. Going down a 50 degree slope on certain maps will cause repeated 'falls' even though the mech never falls, and by the time it finishes going down that slope it no longer has any legs.
Meanwhile, you can fall 200+ meters and ALWAYS be at the speed of 30 f/s, barely getting more than 3% damage for said fall in a Highlander.
Why? There is no true acceleration. You don't gradually go from +6 f/s to -30 f/s in a -1, -3 , -6, -7 -12 -16 -22 -30 -38 -50 f/s... You simply drop 1 meter, BAM 30 f/s, 3% damage! Drop from 200 meters in some locations, thud, 30 f/s 3% damage. Meanwhile in some places drop 10 meters, SONIC BOOM! Fell at 64 f/s instantly.
...What the **** is going on with PGI and "instant" bullshit? Everything in gravity accelerates and decelerates. It's not oh you hit your jumpjets and suddenly you're going 9 f/s from a 64 f/s fall. NO! You slow down, going -30, -28, -24, -16, -8, 0, +2, +8..
So why are we instantly falling at 30 f/s? Why is 64 f/s ultra rare? Why is it like ghost heat, completely inconsistent? That's where the REAL problem with fall damage rests.
(Edit: Fall damage doesn't seem to scale with distance fallen, either. A long fall or a short fall at the same speed still causes identical damage.)
Did you not read the post ?
Quite apart form the fact that it will bring the cost of poptarting up, it's designed to make the game more realistic and involving for pilots. You know... a bit more like a sim.
How is that a bad thing ?
That's the idea behind these changes. Given how fine tuned a lot of jump sniping builds the extra heat and tonnage will be noticeable. Not to mention that with slower climb rates countersniping will be easier.
We'll have to see how it works in full though. To me personally all the changes made recently look very good and will make the game more fun in the long term.
What the graph does not show is the rate of climb. What makes a huge difference is whether you can go to 5m in 1.5 seconds or 3 seconds.
These thrust scaling mechanics were already applied to the Highlander (the class I Jump Jets to exact). Think of how significant the difference was when playing the HGN before and after that change. A similar system will now apply to all mechs.
For example, the Summoner actually just got a buff because it's large number of JJs is now much more relevant then it was before.
sry I don't have a highlander so no idea what this really makes different than the thing we had before. Also if we go higher FASTER wiht more JJ's this would ena we spend our fuel faster too. And since dropping makes the mech only "not accelerate" I wonder if 5 JJ's while dropping now will even be worse than 1 JJ sinc ein the drop movement the 5 JJ's do not slow down the fall but still amy consume the fuel qickr than a single JJ.
Exactly the thing with the first JJ is needed to overcome Gravity is what would make a single JJ the least efficient of all. But atm it looks like the most efficient.
Edited by Lily from animove, 09 July 2014 - 03:53 AM.
Second post, Addendum 2. Not mentioned in Niko's quote opening this topic.
Thanks.
That does seem like it might work out terribly, depending on how they tune the numbers.
Lily from animove, on 09 July 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:
sry I don't have a highlander so no idea what this really makes different than the thing we had before. Also if we go higher FASTER wiht more JJ's this would ena we spend our fuel faster too. And since dropping makes the mech only "not accelerate" I wonder if 5 JJ's while dropping now will even be worse than 1 JJ sinc ein the drop movement the 5 JJ's do not slow down the fall but still amy consume the fuel qickr than a single JJ.
Exactly the thing with the first JJ is needed to overcome Gravity is what would make a single JJ the least efficient of all. But atm it looks like the most efficient.
The difference on the HGN was quite noticeable.
The idea is this:
More JJs mean that not only will you go higher for the same amount of fuel, but you will climb faster.
Example:
Mech A has 2 JJs.
Mech B has 4 JJs.
Both jump 10 m into the air.
Mech A will climb to 10m in 4 seconds and use 100% of it's fuel.
Mech B will climb to 10m in 2.2 seconds and use 60% of it's fuel.
- The numbers are just for illustration and are made up.
Right now - on the live server - a mech with more JJs can climb higher and will climb faster, but the difference in maximum jump height will be bigger after the patch and the difference in climb rate much bigger.
If we look at the Highlander changes as a guideline of what we can expect.
Second post, Addendum 2. Not mentioned in Niko's quote opening this topic.
Paul can we have a chart of the values? by this we could simple put stuff in an excel and make our own graphs for the different chassis and engines. Cmon give us some stuff for science ^^
There once was a time when light and medium mechs could be found duelling in mid air over the battlefields while heavys and assoults would poptart and it was fun.
There came a time when jumping started to make you vomit and targetting gear was mounted on flexible antennas, wildly flaying arround while jumping, and fun was gone and most usefulness was gone for light and medium mechs while all would poptart.
There came a time where using jumpjets stoped making you vomit and made you hover more then jump while propelling you slightly foreward reducing the usefullness of them for annything but poptarting with a solid barrier in front of you even more annoying.
There will be a time when heat is raised and lift is lowered even further and every use but poptarting and out of combat movement will be selfdestructive.....because mechs do not feel tanklike enough.... especially the lighter ones that will be hurt most by this change....
please :Go back and find the word "fun" on this post. Think about it. No really: THINK ABOUT IT!
Sooooo... poptarting is a "valid,tactical means of play"
You forgot to mention that dying to 30 dmg pinpoint game after bloody game in a light is also extremely irritating in the end. No matter how laid back you are. To the point where "gg close" does indeed become an insult, even were it not so intended.
In short: Poptarting with frontloaded pinpoint may be valid, but fun it ain't. Not on the receiving end. Seriously, Paul Inouye and Co. You need your head read. Had a look at the recent heatmaps compared to a year ago?
RIP the following white knights of the community:
Roadbeer
Pada Vinson
SjurWareagle
And that is just off the top of my hat of people leaving in the last 2 months. Valuable people.
BTW, If Mechs are not tanklike enough, then why is the turret traverse with the mouse in excess of 70 degrees a second? Note, "the mouse will be king" competitively. PGI statement from long ago. Now explain that one to me, please, Mr Inouye. And while you are at it, tell me what the average gamer earns in a match without premium time or hero mechs. Since you felt we were earning too much CBs per drop a year ago. And your xp model STILL does not reward anything other than damage and kills/assists. I just learned to do more damage before dying to 85 ton poptarts.
If your'e going to pull TT into it, kindly remember how damage worked while jumping and not colliding with a mech. Also, kindly remember how going down half-height (ie, cover) terrain damaged your legs.
Tanky is great. Right now it feels like driving a an old car where one sudden jolt is going to have the rear view mirrors falling off.
Also, cap the heat, else you're going to penalize lights or mechs who stack lots of JJ more. Now that big jump jet spider is going to cook itself.
There once was a time when light and medium mechs could be found duelling in mid air over the battlefields while heavys and assoults would poptart and it was fun.
There came a time when jumping started to make you vomit and targetting gear was mounted on flexible antennas, wildly flaying arround while jumping, and fun was gone and most usefulness was gone for light and medium mechs while all would poptart.
There came a time where using jumpjets stoped making you vomit and made you hover more then jump while propelling you slightly foreward reducing the usefullness of them for annything but poptarting with a solid barrier in front of you even more annoying.
There will be a time when heat is raised and lift is lowered even further and every use but poptarting and out of combat movement will be selfdestructive.....because mechs do not feel tanklike enough.... especially the lighter ones that will be hurt most by this change....
please :Go back and find the word "fun" on this post. Think about it. No really: THINK ABOUT IT!
wow you mean you would have to use the game for something else than jumping around? Yeah poor Bunnywarrior online, the fun is gone in it. Now grow some guts of Endosteel and fight like a Mechwarrior.
Edited by Lily from animove, 09 July 2014 - 04:57 AM.
Lily from animove, on 09 July 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:
wow you mean you would have to use the game for something else than jumping around? Yeah poor Bunnywarrior online, the fun is gone in it. Now grow some guts of Endosteel and fight like a Mechwarrior.
I would, but there is only this mechlab-madness-meta-warrior-gameplay to be found here. Mind pointing me in the direction of of the game that allows for the suggested?
Any chance of looking into fall damage as related to small drops such as into the potholes in Tourmaline and Terra Therma. If I'm running anywhere's near full speed a small drop like that costs me leg damage. If these bots are more like tanks, build them like the Abrams where at 70KPH you can it ups and downs without criticaling your unit.
10
wanderer, on 08 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:
