510 replies to this topic

[Heffay]

Cimarb, on 09 July 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

I do not agree, as the first jump jet needs to overcome the mass of the mech before any movement is made. Once that mass is overcome, anything above that should give a linear increase. So, the first jump jet can give a (very) small jump, while the second jet gives a full jet increase. See the following post for a VERY good explanation of this: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3544879

Maybe the initial impetus is the mech actually... jumping? The jets just assist in keeping it airborne once it's off the ground. It needs to jump because it has to overcome the vanderwals force that keeps it attached to the ground.

And mechs without jump jets don't jump, because they aren't designed to handle the landing part. Missing some gyro components that keeps them upright when jumping.

[ReXspec]

Paul Inouye, on 08 July 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

One common misconception that I've seen concerning these changes is that this was supposed to "fix" the "pop-tart meta". That is not the case. Just to be clear, we are not trying to remove pop-tarting from MWO. It is a valid, tactical means of play.

Paul, just because it is a tactic that you and your staff favor, does not make it valid--let alone possible.

What you seem to be missing is the fact that there were, in fact, only a few 'mechs that were actually designed to "pop-tart." Pop-tart'ing wasn't a feasible tactic on Mechwarrior Tabletop, not just because of the heat output, but because of the unstable flight 'mechs experiences while in the air. Even jumping more then thirty to fifty feet meant severe consequences for the 'mech, which means the 'mech would experience a range of issues from falling over on the landing, to having legs or feet destroyed.

The way you have the game set up now (yes even after this supposed 'rework' to jump-jets) is that you're making the 'mechs work as if they have:

1) Improved Jump Jets.
2) Are capable of maintaining perfect targeting accuracy in mid-air on the DOWN swing of a jump.
3) Reinforced legs and feet.

If players want to be able to jump-snipe, then they need to do it with 'mechs that were designed to do it. Because I can tell you right now, the Highlander, and Victor were NOT designed to jump-snipe with the efficiency of a Hollander or a Hollander II.

A blog actually put the whole jump-sniping situation in MWO rather accurately: "Jump Sniping - a tactic seen in Mechwarrior which would never have a feasible use in the tabletop scene. Jumping is difficult for a Mech pilot in Battletech and requires piloting rolls to maintain the 'mechs balance when it lands. Failure to do this can mean you fall over and damage your 'mech. MWO however allows you to freely jump and aim without penalty resulting in hilarious images of Highlanders bopping up and down behind a hill. In real life it would be like adding thrusters to a tank and having the driver hover the tank over a hill, the gunner aiming and firing and then lowering back down again. That's a lot of work for a crew so imagine what it would be like for someone piloting a massive walking combat machine to do accurately. Basically it's a tactic that is so far removed from Battletech it may as well be Gundam."

(source: http://critical-rock...canon-well.html )

Simple solutions to the current "pop-tarting meta" is as follows:

1) Add crosshair shake to the "down swing" of a 'mech in mid-air. If a pilot tries to shoot while jumping, the accuracy of the shots should only be effective at "close" ranges. Which would be at about 120m - 200m ranges.

2) If you can't make 'mechs fall over, add greater damage penalties, add the "reinforced legs" quirk to certain 'mechs (such as the Summoner or the Highlander, since both of those 'mechs actually do have reinforced legs), and lessen the damage for 'mechs with reinforced legs.

3) MAKE THE JUMPJETS PRODUCE THEIR ALLOTTED HEAT! The current jump-jet/heat dynamics you have make no sense UNLESS a 'mech is equipped with Improved Jump Jets. This system would make more sense if you were explaining the mechanics behind Improved Jump Jets, but, at the moment, there are no Improved Jump Jets in the game. So treat the jump jets like [scrap]ing jump jets!


^ THIS =/= THIS V

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[Deucebackpack]

Hi!

Just informing here about the existence of this Topic discussing the jump jet exploits:
http://mwomercs.com/...hrough-jumping/

Hope these issues will also be solved by the new jump jet changes.

[ArchSight]

Quote

[color=orange]Second: Jump Jet Thrust[/color]

There are 2 aspects to how Jump Jets lift your 'Mech off the ground. The first is the initial boost that pushes your 'Mech off the ground and slightly forward. The second aspect is how much each Jump Jet adds to your total height gain through Jump Jet use. These numbers have now been updated to reflect what was mentioned above about Jump Jets being used for navigational purposes over rough terrain. The fact that a single Jump Jet was producing almost the same amount of thrust as 4 Jump Jets on the same 'Mech obviously didn't make sense.

Jump Jet's are now doing much less compounded lift than before. The initial boost is also providing less vertical lift than before. This means that across the board, all 'Mechs will be not be jumping as high as they were before. It is still possible to do snap turns using any number of Jump Jets, this change only affects vertical displacement.

Does the number of jump jets scale how fast a mech will accelerate upwards?

This makes sense to me.
One jump jet is enough to lift a mech off the ground in the game. By adding more fuel to use it will increase the height it can reach. By adding more jump jets to use the same amount of fuel the work to do it is shared to multiple jump jets which increases the rate of expelling the fuel but not the height.

MWO jump jets seems to be adding more fuel to use with more jump jets but don't seem to be adding a faster speed. A jump jet that weighs 0.5 tons with fuel combined with another jump jet that is the same would be doubling the speed it goes and the height it reaches.

Quote

[color=orange]First: Jump Jet Heat.[/color]

Table Top (TT) rules add 3 heat instantaneously upon using any number of Jump Jets. Now naturally we can't do that without severely penalizing anyone using a Jump Jet no matter the duration or how many are being fired. What we're doing for MWO is creating a baseline Heat Per Second for a single Jump Jet. This single Jump Jet causes a maxed Single Heat Sink 'Mech to hit around 3% heat. Adding 4 more Jump Jets will take this same 'Mech to around 10% heat after a full burn.

What this does is not cause a 'Mech to overheat.. but essentially it will stop the 'Mech from cooling down while Jump Jets are in use.

A single jump jet with the same amount of fuel to reach the same height as 5 jump jets should produce the same amount of heat as 5 jump jets.

[Steinkrieg]

Prediction 1 -

Why don't you just go ahead and make it so that you can't fire any weapons while jump jets are in use? That's the final direction in which you are headed, so let's just do it now and get the whining over with.

Prediction 2 -

In 2 to 4 months time, PGI will release a Jump Jet Thrust module. You want jump jets to actually work? Here, sacrifice a module slot. Oh, you're already using one of your slots for the Gyro stabilizer so you don't vomit when you use jump jets? Sorry, jokes on you for actually using something that we don't really want you to use in the first place but don't have the courage to say it.

---

My main problem with this is that you have effectively nerfed an already weak chassis that many people paid money for - The Summoner / Thor. The inability to remove the jump jets from the chassis along with the subpar hardpoint allocation has now added 5 useless tons of equipment that I would rather strip out of the mech than have to deal with your supposed fix.

You design chassis' and advertise them, no less, by showing them poptart, then nerf it after people pay money for them. Quite a few of us that use jump jets more for maneuvering (i.e. having more than 1 jj installed) than poptarting are getting really tired of having them nerfed every few months and making them more and more cost prohibitive to the point where we don't use them or the mechs in which we would normally install them.

[Cest7]

FFS paul, just add knockdowns back in the game. Poptarts get hit in mid air = Fall down go boom.

Bam, poptart meta fixed.

[Heffay]

Cest7, on 09 July 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

FFS paul, just add knockdowns back in the game. Poptarts get hit in mid air = Fall down go boom.

Bam, poptart meta fixed.

That would eliminate jump sniping/pop tarting, which isn't the goal. It is a valid way to play. It just needs to be tweaked to not be the single most effective method of play.

There are many ways to do this, and this is a great way of balancing them while making sure that it takes more skill to successfully pull off.

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

That would eliminate jump sniping/pop tarting, which isn't the goal. It is a valid way to play.

No it's not. Not on the premise that it's "overpowered" but because it's simply not supposed to be possible in a heavy-[srap]ing, non-aerodynamic, multi-ton, death machine.

Mechwarrior is Mechwarrior. Not [scrap]ing Gundam.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[Steinkrieg]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

That would eliminate jump sniping/pop tarting, which isn't the goal. It is a valid way to play. It just needs to be tweaked to not be the single most effective method of play.

Does anyone actually believe this? It's like a politician saying "I'm not against XXXXXX" then proceeds to regulate it to the point where no one seeks to buy, use, or otherwise acknowledge the existence of XXXXXX.

[Heffay]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

No it's not. Not on the premise that it's "overpowered" but because it's simply not supposed to be possible in a heavy-[srap]ing, non-aerodynamic, multi-ton, death machine.

Mechwarrior is Mechwarrior. Not [scrap]ing Gundam.

Oh, it's just an opinion you are sharing on gameplay. I see.

I think having multiple ways of playing a game is perfectly valid, and preferable as it increases the complexity and depth of play, as long as the implementation is still keeping in spirit with lore and TT rules, even if the exact implementation has to make some minor changes due for gameplay reasons.

[ReXspec]

Steinkrieg, on 09 July 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Does anyone actually believe this? It's like a politician saying "I'm not against XXXXXX" then proceeds to regulate it to the point where no one seeks to buy, use, or otherwise acknowledge the existence of XXXXXX.

It's a contradictory statement. It's like saying, "we want to eliminate jump-sniping without eliminating jump-sniping."

A 'mech can either jump-snipe, or it can't. Period. Jump-sniping in Battletech is not supposed to be possible except with a few very specific 'mechs that can be equipped with: Improved Jump Jets, Advanced Gyros, Reinforced Legs, and a Targeting Computer.

And even then, you CANNOT entirely eliminate cross-hair shake while your 'mech is in mid-air. It makes no [scrap]ing sense.

[Heffay]

Steinkrieg, on 09 July 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Does anyone actually believe this? It's like a politician saying "I'm not against XXXXXX" then proceeds to regulate it to the point where no one seeks to buy, use, or otherwise acknowledge the existence of XXXXXX.

There is nothing wrong with jump sniping, as long as it is balanced. And it can be balanced, just like every single mechanic in every other game out there. This is one more step in the road to a better balanced game.

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

It's a contradictory statement. It's like saying, "we want to eliminate jump-sniping without eliminating jump-sniping." A 'mech can either jump-snipe, or it can't. Period.

It's hardly a contradictory statement. We're all saying the same thing: Balance it, don't eliminate it. Make it a skill shot, so under the right circumstances you'll want to do it, but not all the time. Increase the risk of doing that (fall damage changes).

Then it goes from "a mech can either jump-snipe, or it can't" to "a pilot can either jump snipe, or he can't." Depending on skill, and the circumstances, and his willingness to take risks.

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Oh, it's just an opinion you are sharing on gameplay. I see.

I think having multiple ways of playing a game is perfectly valid, and preferable as it increases the complexity and depth of play, as long as the implementation is still keeping in spirit with lore and TT rules, even if the exact implementation has to make some minor changes due for gameplay reasons.

Having multiple ways of playing the game is fine, but if you're advertising your game as "Mechwarrior" which is affiliated with "Battletech," then it stands to reason that you would make the gameplay mechanics faithful to the Battletech franchise. Mechwarrior advertises itself as a "'mech combat simulator." If you're selling you're game as a "simulation" then it stands to reason that the game that is being advertised as a simulation will follow as close to real-life physics as possible.

As it stands right now, jump-sniping does not follow any sort of physics or realism that I know if. It is following more along the lines of Gundam or Robotech physics. Which is absurd. As I said before, Mechwarrior is Mechwarrior. Not. Freakin'. Gundam.

[Heffay]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Having multiple ways of playing the game is fine, but if you're advertising your game as "Mechwarrior" which is affiliated with "Battletech," then it stands to reason that you would make the gameplay mechanics faithful to the Battletech franchise. Mechwarrior advertises itself as a "'mech combat simulator." If you're selling you're game as a "simulation" then it stands to reason that the game that is being advertised as a simulation will follow as close to real-life physics as possible.

As it stands right now, jump-sniping does not follow any sort of physics or realism that I know if. It is following more along the lines of Gundam or Robotech physics. Which is absurd. As I said before, Mechwarrior is Mechwarrior. Not. Freakin'. Gundam.

Hasn't jump sniping been in every previous iteration of Mechwarrior games? Heck, isn't this pretty much the only Mechwarrior game that is attempting to create some balance around it as well??

And yes, it existed in TT too; it was just challenging to pull off and required a lot of luck. Well, we can take the RNG out of it to make it a skill based tactic (which is good), and balance it so that matches don't devolve into trench warfare.

Edited by Heffay, 09 July 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Then it goes from "a mech can either jump-snipe, or it can't" to "a pilot can either jump snipe, or he can't." Depending on skill, and the circumstances, and his willingness to take risks.

Ya know, I could have taken the risk to use I.E.D.'s I found on deployment as make-shift grenades to use against my enemies. Or used AT-4's to rocket jump, but I didn't because both ideas don't follow any sort of reason or realism. So, as it stands right now, if someone wants to jump-snipe, that is possible only because the devs have made it possible. Realistically though, jump-sniping is supposed to be as absurd as the two ideas I put forward.

[Steinkrieg]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with jump sniping, as long as it is balanced. And it can be balanced, just like every single mechanic in every other game out there. This is one more step in the road to a better balanced game.

If there is nothing wrong with it, then why 'balance' it? Balancing means a whole heck of a lot of things to different people. Here, balancing means to make the mechs that normally poptart unplayable for the majority of those who poptart, with no consideration to the pre-order mechs that people paid real money for that help fund this company and this game that have hardwired jump jets in them. Let me take out jump jets from my clan mechs and you can balance them in any manner in which PGI chooses. Until then, leave them be so that some mechs can at least remain viable in casual play.

[Heffay]

Steinkrieg, on 09 July 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

If there is nothing wrong with it, then why 'balance' it? Balancing means a whole heck of a lot of things to different people. Here, balancing means to make the mechs that normally poptart unplayable for the majority of those who poptart, with no consideration to the pre-order mechs that people paid real money for that help fund this company and this game that have hardwired jump jets in them. Let me take out jump jets from my clan mechs and you can balance them in any manner in which PGI chooses. Until then, leave them be so that some mechs can at least remain viable in casual play.

Umm... because you have to balance everything, otherwise the game becomes one dimensional. The tactic is valid, but it can't be the only thing that works, or the most effective in pretty much every scenario.

You're creating a false duality: either it's ok as is, or it needs to be removed. In reality it's a spectrum from being too powerful to being completely useless, and finding that happy middle ground is part of what these changes are intended to do.

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Ya know, I could have taken the risk to use I.E.D.'s I found on deployment as make-shift grenades to use against my enemies. Or used AT-4's to rocket jump, but I didn't because both ideas don't follow any sort of reason or realism. So, as it stands right now, if someone wants to jump-snipe, that is possible only because the devs have made it possible. Realistically though, jump-sniping is supposed to be as absurd as the two ideas I put forward.

That's just rhetoric, and pretty poor analogies. Jump sniping has existed in every single Mechwarrior ever released, so for you to say that it isn't Mechwarrior to have jumpsniping is disingenuous at best.

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Hasn't jump sniping been in every previous iteration of Mechwarrior games? Heck, isn't this pretty much the only Mechwarrior game that is attempting to create some balance around it as well??

It is, but Paul's current suggestion on "balancing" it is not the way to do it.

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

And yes, it existed in TT too; it was just challenging to pull off and required a lot of luck. Well, we can take the RNG out of it to make it a skill based tactic (which is good),

What you are suggesting is removing random variables from a game that is supposed to be a simulation of a battlefield filled with 'mechs. You cannot remove random variables from a game like this. You can reduce these variables through skill, but you can never eliminate them (unless you want to turn Mechwarrior into a point-and-click adventures, which is stupid). Jump sniping is supposed to be difficult, which, at present, it is NOT difficult. I don't care what kind of excuses someone can make. People are advertising this gross playstyle as easy. And rightly so: You just jump, wait for the down-swing, point, and shoot--INSTANT FORTY DAMAGE TO "X" BODY PART. And now, you can't fire back because the jerk that shot you is already behind the hill. If you want to add "skill" to that strategy, it is REALLY simple: Just look at my above post with the quote from Paul.

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

and balance it so that matches don't devolve into trench warfare.

You do realize that 90% of Mechwarrior was brawling, slug-matches, and "trench-warfare," right? Not bunny-hopping jump-sniping? Which is now the prevalent game-style everyone is picking?

[Heffay]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

It is, but Paul's current suggestion on "balancing" it is not the way to do it.



What you are suggesting is removing random variables from a game that is supposed to be a simulation of a battlefield filled with 'mechs. You cannot remove random variables from a game like this. You can reduce these variables through skill, but you can never eliminate them (unless you want to turn Mechwarrior into a point-and-click adventures, which is stupid). Jump sniping is supposed to be difficult, which, at present, it is NOT difficult. I don't care what kind of excuses someone can make. People are advertising this gross playstyle as easy. And rightly so: You just jump, wait for the down-swing, point, and shoot--INSTANT FORTY DAMAGE TO "X" BODY PART. And now, you can't fire back because the jerk that shot you is already behind the hill. If you want to add "skill" to that strategy, it is REALLY simple: Just look at my above post with the quote from Paul.


You do realize that 90% of Mechwarrior was brawling, slug-matches, and "trench-warfare," right? Not bunny-hopping jump-sniping? Which is now the prevalent game-style everyone is picking?

Oh, I see. Your problem isn't with jump sniping/pop tarting. It's with pinpoint damage.

You should start a new thread about that, because this one is about jump jet changes to assist in balancing pop tarting.

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Oh, I see. Your problem isn't with jump sniping/pop tarting. It's with pinpoint damage.

You should start a new thread about that, because this one is about jump jet changes to assist in balancing pop tarting.

The problem with pinpoint damage and jump-sniping are intertwined with each other, dude. Stop deflecting the argument, and actually address it.