510 replies to this topic

[Heffay]

Cimarb, on 09 July 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

You do play the game still, right?

Hit the spacebar on a non-JJ mech and let me know if it jumps - but maybe I missed a patch where they added that...

Well, that is just downright dangerous. Without jump jets to feather falls and align the legs, it's a guaranteed tumble. That's why non-jump jet mechs can't jump at all.

[Void Angel]

'Mechs without jump jets in tabletop can jump, as such - they just can't use the Jump movement type - so falls beyond a certain level are unmanageable, and they can't gain enough height to obtain a significant advantage in combat. Because game balance, not universe design. You two are going at it from cross-purposes, because one of you is talking about MWO, and the other is trying to apply the "tabletop rules say X, so MWO is suposed to act like Y" logic. Just one of many problems you get when trying to turn the tabletop rules into a suicide pact for MWO.

Edited by Void Angel, 09 July 2014 - 08:17 PM.

[Goose]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

We aren't slaves to TT, and for very good reason. TT has to be simplified, because you're using pen & paper and need all kinds of abstraction. FPS Sims can implement much more dynamic models, and since jump jets are powered by the engine, the engine size as well as the weight of the mech *should* have an impact on how effective the jets are.

It's not that TT is the "right" way to do it. It's a simplification for practical purposes. As long as the implementation that PGI comes up with is in the spirit of the TT rules, they are perfectly valid and *far* more preferable than keeping the simplified system.

You wouldn't happen to be referring to how a build can't normally have more jump jets then it's "walk ratting" in table-top?

Has anyone ever built a Spider-V with max jets, and minimum engine?

[Void Angel]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Here is the thing though, Void. Whether this is in a FPS format, or TT format, what people like Heffay are essentially suggesting is that you entirely remove random variables from shooting and make this game point-and-click. Which, if the game is advertising itself as a simulator, is simply absurd--not to mention it's false advertising, and should not be associated with the Mechwarrior name if that is the case.

This most recent "rework" to jump jets is only a half-step in the right direction. It still doesn't make sense. As I said before, and as I quoted in a previous post, "(this system) is so far removed from actual Battletech, it may as well be Gundam."

You don't want many random variables in an FPS, generally speaking - you certainly don't want them as an integral part of game balance. Random scatter for shotgun-like weapons like SRMs and LB-X Autocannons are fun and useful, but if I'm just aiming an RNG with my mouse pointer, why not just play Mechwarrior: Tactics?

I really don't see where you're coming from with the jump jet remake - this system is only one step removed from slavish adherence to tabletop rules. Instead of just scaling with jets up to a maximum determined by engine rating, they're scaling them on both engine rating and number of jets. This is actually closer to tabletop than before, and will reduce jumping power, making it less Gundam-like. This should allow them to tune jump jet effectiveness more closely than wrote imitation of tabletop, because they have another variable to work with - which would allow them more latitude to account for the larger amounts of pinpoint alpha available to, say, Assault chassis, while not impairing light 'mechs' mobility too much. Sure, they could do it by scaling only with jump jets, but this gives them a more flexible tool. Meanwhile, there's not really a significant hit in complexity in the MechLab, because you can see how much jump height you're getting as you add jump jets and change engines with any chassis. All they really need to do is update the Jump Jets' explanation text.

Joseph Mallan, on 09 July 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

There is a planet in Canon where mods can be done to a Mech that will allow it to perform Gymnastics, Dance, and even play Baseball! I cannot remember the name of said planet, but I am sure someone here does.

Also Tanks are designed to feel like tanks, Mechs are designed to feel like Knights in Armor... It is why Many MechWarriors wear Spurs.

Canon fiction is... conflicted. It often contradicts both itself and the game rules. For example, you're supposed to be able to do handstands in an Atlas, I'm told... but no rules exist for climbing a cliff face without jump jets. As for the whole knights thing, I think I remember that as more of a social position than a piloting paradigm. Most of human society has devolved to some form of feudalism, with MechWarrriors filling the role of the knight both in society and the battleground of romantic fiction - marauding around the battlefield dominating lesser combatants. Regardless, the fiction isn't authoritative, because of its ad hoc, contradictory nature: that's why some people say, "this is more like Gundam than Battletech," while at the same time you're pointing out gymnastics and sporting activities. It all depends on what fiction and flavor text you've read, and how you reconciled (or failed to reconcile) that with the game rules.

Joseph Mallan, on 09 July 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

The Battletech Mechanics Are you Jump, Then land, then fire from your position landed in. Fluff and Novels are not the rules of the game it is the fiction, So which do you want, Cause you either have Zero pop tarting (TT) or only like 5 players who can Jump and shoot (Canon).

Not true, actually. Level 3 rules allow firing in the air - Battletech Tactical Handbook, p 49. You your options would be that only a small minority can jump snipe, according to a confused body of supplementary fiction; or that anyone could do it, based on the tabletop ruleset - if either source were an authority on the minutiae of MWO's game mechanics.

[ReXspec]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 09 July 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

I'm not sure that MWO was ever advertised as a simulator. 'Mech games, by their nature, are usually niche hybrid between skill-based (or "twitch, if you prefer) shooters and keyboard-and-mouse controlled simulators (HOTAS or other setups, while arguably the most immersive, have never been the "best" way to play MechWarrior games).

While there are some random aspects to the game (U-AC jam, internal damage when you over heat, critical hits, for example), their impact on the game is minimized compared to other risks. I would much rather get my cockpit blown out because I was stupid and the other guy was skilled (or good and lucky) than my random-number-generator rolled a critical fumble and the other guy's rolled a critical hit.

Believing that skill should ever be less important than luck or random numbers is (to use your term) simply absurd.

Yes. Mechwarrior has been advertised to be a 31st century battlefield, 'mech combat "simulator;" it claimed to have a quite a bit of realism from the very beginning.

That said, you CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT completely eliminate random variables from a game like this.

If this is a 31st century battlefield simulation, then I would figure that they would put variables that players could not control (much like a real battlefield). Amongst these variables, it would probably behoove a developer who is trying to make a game like this to put in realistic physics. In regards to the physics related to jump-jets and flying 'mechs, those physics (amongst others) are not, by any stretch, realistic--let alone plausible.

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 09 July 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

I believe that this upcoming change is a step in the right direction ... that it will make the ability to jump high enough to clear full cover with enough time to locate a target, aim, and shoot accurately more rare and more costly in terms of either 'mech efficiency or risk. Jump sniping has it's place, but it should not be any more or less effective in most situations, on most maps, than any other technique.

Edit: Spelling

It's a half-step in the right direction. The mechanics related to jj's and flying 'mechs are still nonsense.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 09:22 PM.

[Aylek]

Hopefully we get to remove some of the fixed JJs from our Summoners as well from July 15th on? Remember, my a la carte Summoners were as expensive as my Timber Wolves...

Edited by Aylek, 09 July 2014 - 09:14 PM.

[Goose]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 July 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

The Battletech Mechanics Are you Jump, Then land, then fire from your position landed in. Fluff and Novels are not the rules of the game it is the fiction, So which do you want, Cause you either have Zero pop tarting (TT) or only like 5 players who can Jump and shoot (Canon).

pp.49 of the rightfully deprecated Tactical Handbook

https://onedrive.liv...int=file%2c.pdf

It's not supposed to be low-risk/ high-reward …

Edited by Goose, 09 July 2014 - 09:15 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

That said, you CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT completely eliminate random variables from a game like this.

But PGI can (and should, in my opinion) minimize random variables.

Quote

If this is a 31st century battlefield simulation, then I would figure that they would put variables that players could not control (much like a real battlefield).

11 self-aware team mates and 12 self-aware opponents aren't enough things you can't control ... you want more?

The chaos and lack of control on the battlefield exists because (at least for most people) you're one of dozens, hundreds, or thousands of soldiers ... each of which is thinking on their own to accomplish their mission (to some degree or another). It is not because some higher power is playing dice.

Quote

It's a half-step in the right direction. The mechanics related to jj's and flying 'mechs are still nonsense.

I would much rather PGI take a half step in the right direction than a full step in the wrong direction (buff on PPCs back before hit-state-rewind, for example).

[ReXspec]

Void Angel, on 09 July 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

You don't want many random variables in an FPS, generally speaking - you certainly don't want them as an integral part of game balance. Random scatter for shotgun-like weapons like SRMs and LB-X Autocannons are fun and useful, but if I'm just aiming an RNG with my mouse pointer, why not just play Mechwarrior: Tactics?

If you're claiming a game is "realistic" then you HAVE to adhere to at least some of the random variables that are present in real life. Again, Mechwarrior advertises itself as a 31st century battlefield, mech-combat "simulator."

SIMULATOR

If you tack on the name "Mechwarrior" and use the word "simulator" in the intellectual property, then it behooves the developer to adhere to realism. Mechwarrior is not a "point-and-click" adventure. Nor is Mechwarrior supposed to be loaded with the cartoonish gagglef*ck mechanics and physics that it currently has. It never will be. If it is, and that is the type of game P.G.I. is going for, then this isn't Mechwarrior and nor is it battletech. It's simply an arcade 'mech game, and then they need to drop the name "Mechwarrior" or "Battletech" from the I.P.

Void Angel, on 09 July 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

I really don't see where you're coming from with the jump jet remake - this system is only one step removed from slavish adherence to tabletop rules. Instead of just scaling with jets up to a maximum determined by engine rating, they're scaling them on both engine rating and number of jets. This is actually closer to tabletop than before, and will reduce jumping power, making it less Gundam-like. This should allow them to tune jump jet effectiveness more closely than wrote imitation of tabletop, because they have another variable to work with - which would allow them more latitude to account for the larger amounts of pinpoint alpha available to, say, Assault chassis, while not impairing light 'mechs' mobility too much. Sure, they could do it by scaling only with jump jets, but this gives them a more flexible tool. Meanwhile, there's not really a significant hit in complexity in the MechLab, because you can see how much jump height you're getting as you add jump jets and change engines with any chassis. All they really need to do is update the Jump Jets' explanation text.

Canon fiction is... conflicted. It often contradicts both itself and the game rules. For example, you're supposed to be able to do handstands in an Atlas, I'm told... but no rules exist for climbing a cliff face without jump jets. As for the whole knights thing, I think I remember that as more of a social position than a piloting paradigm. Most of human society has devolved to some form of feudalism, with MechWarrriors filling the role of the knight both in society and the battleground of romantic fiction - marauding around the battlefield dominating lesser combatants. Regardless, the fiction isn't authoritative, because of its ad hoc, contradictory nature: that's why some people say, "this is more like Gundam than Battletech," while at the same time you're pointing out gymnastics and sporting activities. It all depends on what fiction and flavor text you've read, and how you reconciled (or failed to reconcile) that with the game rules.

Not true, actually. Level 3 rules allow firing in the air - Battletech Tactical Handbook, p 49. You your options would be that only a small minority can jump snipe, according to a confused body of supplementary fiction; or that anyone could do it, based on the tabletop ruleset - if either source were an authority on the minutiae of MWO's game mechanics.

All I'm saying is, this nerf/rework/whatever-the-[scrap]-you-want-to-call-it IS a step in the right direction, but it is only a half-step. There are physics and mechanics that are still present with JJ's that are still absurd. You say they reworked it perfectly? I say they didn't rework it enough. Crosshairs are still PERFECTLY STEADY on the downswing of a jump, jump-jets still produce ZERO heat, and 'mechs still don't fall over if they land from too high or on [scrap]ed up terrain. In short, they need to do more with jumpjets. If they are going to do more with them, fine, but that presumption has little evidence to back it up.

Jump-sniping is supposed to be a high-risk, high-reward manuever. Currently, it is a low-risk, high-reward manuever that dominates the MWO playing fields. And I reckon it still will be (though to a slightly lesser degree) if Paul's proposal is implemented.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[YueFei]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

Well, that is just downright dangerous. Without jump jets to feather falls and align the legs, it's a guaranteed tumble. That's why non-jump jet mechs can't jump at all.

Doesn't make sense. If a mech can jump X meters in height with just legs alone, that means those legs are able to generate the necessary force to launch it that high. He'll land with the same force on the way down, no more than that, and the legs will be able to generate the necessary force to absorb the energy of the landing. It's the same energy used to jump in the first place.

An F-14 can be dropped 6 meters straight down onto its landing gear, and that thing weighs 30+ tons. Its landing gear flexes maybe 1 meter or so to absorb the landing.

A mech is much taller than an F-14, and can flex along a greater height. Ankles, knees, bending at the waist, etc. A mech could potentially absorb its landing over several meters of distance, experiencing much less shock than an F-14 would.

These mechs are also 1000+ years in the future, but whatever.

[ReXspec]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 09 July 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

But PGI can (and should, in my opinion) minimize random variables.

Right, you can minimize these variables, but you can't ELIMINATE them. Adding realistic physics, ballistics,
etc. only serves to push the skill of a pilot to his/her limits, don't you think?

Again, if this game does advertise itself to be at least somewhat realistic, then there shouldn't be perfect freaking, crosshair stability while a multi-ton 'mech is in mid-air. The crosshair should NOT be stable on ANY part of the jump. This crosshair shake can be lessened with improved jump-jets and targeting computers, but it should STILL be there. It doesn't make sense to eliminate physics from a game that is advertised and adheres to at least some sort of realism. Not to mention it's also impossible that regular jump-jets would not output some sort of heat. Even improved jump jets give out heat, though to a much lesser degree.

These suggestions are not just appealing to realism, they are also self-correcting measures to the game balance that tabletop was trying to mimic. Judging from what Paul said, he is aiming to keep jump-sniping where it's at right now: A low risk, high reward manuever that is stupid easy to pull off by even the most basic mechwarrior.

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 09 July 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

11 self-aware team mates and 12 self-aware opponents aren't enough things you can't control ... you want more?

The chaos and lack of control on the battlefield exists because (at least for most people) you're one of dozens, hundreds, or thousands of soldiers ... each of which is thinking on their own to accomplish their mission (to some degree or another). It is not because some higher power is playing dice.

You CLEARLY have not been deployed or are apart of any military are you?

There is a lot more going on within a battlefield then simply soldiers attempting to accomplish objectives. There are factors such as ballistics, wind, terrain, flora and fauna that commanders need to take into account. Stuff that is simply outside of a Commander's or an individual soldier's control. Stuff that Commanders can only plan around and hope for the best once they implement that plan.

In the case of Mechwarrior, if this game is appealing to any sort of realism or variables beyond the players control, the devs need to take into account over the fact that guns are not going to be perfectly accurate--especially in specific environments and especially when a multi-ton 'mech is hurdling through the air.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[YueFei]

It's not that jump sniping is overpowered. Nothing wrong with mechs sniping, right? And nothing wrong with multiple mechs working in unison as a team to clear cover and shoot and pull back behind cover quickly, right?

The problem is that other ways of playing are hobbled. Going without JJs, you get stuck on all kinds of terrain. It's difficult to even do a berm drill smoothly and quickly. You can corner peek, but there's only so many corners to peek from at a given position on a map, and so if all of your team is non-JJ mechs, it's harder to maneuver together to concentrate fire. If you guys have to corner peek one at a time, tripping over each other, it's not going to be as effective as a team that crests a ridgeline together in a firing line to focus fire targets down.

Lighter-weight brawler weapons are not as efficient as they ought to be, at least not the Inner Sphere ones. A Medium laser has a damage-per-heat of 1.25, if you are an aimbot, hitreg is perfect, and the target never moves or twists or turns. Otherwise that efficiency plummets badly. A PPC has a damage-per-heat of 1. You can squeeze that shot into the tiniest of windows of opportunity, and the target's opportunity to twist and spread the damage is minimized.

And SRMs. Yeah. If you compare the same tonnage of SRMs with the same tonnage worth of AC5, the SRMs have a TTK that's only 23% faster at 90 meters, against a stationary Awesome in Testing Grounds. And generates 250% as much heat to snag that kill. In the range band where the SRMs should be KING versus AC5, it just barely outperforms it.

Clan SRMs are a different beast altogether, being only half as much tonnage as IS SRMs, and with the Buckton fix that could really bring back brawling. But with IS SRMs in the state they are in, and how unfavorably they compare with AC5, is it any wonder that the meta is what it has been for so long?

Put Medium Lasers and SRMs into a mech and go brawl someone that's competent, and you'll probably generate *tons* of heat before you finally kill them, because they'll be moving, twisting, jumping. Ironically, put PPCs and AC5 into that same mech, and it'll kill something with a lot less heat.

At the end of the day, mechs are essentially war machines that convert heat into damage. The light weight brawling weapons *should* convert heat to damage at a much more efficient rate, but due to mechanics (lasers DoT, SRMs spread), they end up being far less efficient than the long-range weapons. THAT has been the problem.

There's PPC minimum range, but that matters a lot less in a team vs team environment. Be honest, who here has ever closed into minimum PPC range of an enemy, thought to himself "I got this guy cold", and then gotten cored out by his buddy standing 150 meters away to his left?

Edited by YueFei, 09 July 2014 - 10:47 PM.

[YueFei]

I'd like to see an overhaul of the terrain movement restrictions. Having hill climbing restrictions make sense. The problem is getting stuck on knee-high objects, and many older maps featuring previously-climbable hills that are now unclimbable. Or, you can climb it, but you gonna shimmy left/right/left/right to get up. That's hardly conducive to doing a smooth berm drill, and you'd have to be crazy to shimmy over a berm that way, creeping slowly up, and let 3 or 4 or more enemy mechs line up a shot on you while you're struggling up that hill.

It's not the concept I object to, it's the implementation, and the bugs, and the problem areas on the maps.

By all means, overhaul the jump jets. But the hill-climbing mechanics really could use another look, too.

[ReXspec]

YueFei, on 09 July 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

Words.

LOL

The day my Dire Wolf can go over 100 kph to flank and evade jump-snipers is the day hell freezes over.

Damage methodology is only half the issue. The real issue is where P.G.I wants to take their game:

Do they want to make this a 'mech combat simulator that has some adherence to realism?

Or do they want to make this an arcade game?

Because, if they're going with a mix of both, then you wind up with the convoluted/broken mechanics and physics (I.E. ghost heat, pin-point damage, warped jump-jet mechanics, etc.) that they have now.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[YueFei]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

LOL

The day my Dire Wolf can go over 100 kph to flank and evade jump-snipers is the day hell freezes over.

Damage methodology is only half the issue. The real issue is where P.G.I wants to take their game:

Do they want to make this a 'mech combat simulator that has some adherence to realism?

Or do they want to make this an arcade game?

Because, if they're going with a mix of both, then you wind up with the convoluted mechanics and physics (I.E. ghost heat, pin-point damage, warped jump-jet mechanics, etc.) that they have now.

The other problem with jump sniping is that it combines high efficiency in damage output with the unusually high heat capacity.

You can fire 2xPPC + 2xAC5 every 4 seconds for 9 consecutive salvos on a heat neutral map, if you stand still and if you're willing to blow a Cool Shot to do it.

That's what lets a meta-build hold strongly against a push, rather than being forced to retreat and potentially give up a strong map position. It's also what allows a meta-build to *make* a push themselves. Many of the best players do much more than just pogo-stick on the same spot of the map over and over again. They play extremely aggressively and are constantly moving, getting angles to fire, and pressuring the enemy.

If we had a hard heat cap of 30, that wouldn't be possible. Such a build would overheat on its second consecutive salvo. It would have to retreat, give ground, to buy time to cool off to continue shooting.

That high heat cap is what lends itself to such a high burst damage potential.... enough burst damage to kill/cripple even the largest mechs, like your Dire Wolf.

Before the hill climbing mechanics were put in, we had non-JJ mechs who could do a berm-drill just as quickly as a jump shot. But now? Look at Helmstif get stuck at 0:45:


Yep, one of the best HBK pilots in the game gets stuck at the drop ship on a knee-high incline. And PGI blabbered nonsense about how the hill-climbing mechanics would affect the "Light hunting" game, as if somehow it would help Light mechs escape from Heavies. I'll tell you that hill-climbing mechanics have probably gotten alot of non-JJ Medium and Light mech pilots get killed when their mechs got stuck at the most inopportune time.

Prior to the hill-climb mechanics you should've seen the way Helmstif could make his HBK dance on a ridgeline.

Edited by YueFei, 09 July 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[Argent Usher]

Are we going back to december 2012 now?

[ReXspec]

YueFei, on 09 July 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

The other problem with jump sniping is that it combines high efficiency in damage output with the unusually high heat capacity.

You can fire 2xPPC + 2xAC5 every 4 seconds for 9 consecutive salvos on a heat neutral map, if you stand still and if you're willing to blow a Cool Shot to do it.

That's what lets a meta-build hold strongly against a push, rather than being forced to retreat and potentially give up a strong map position. It's also what allows a meta-build to *make* a push themselves. Many of the best players do much more than just pogo-stick on the same spot of the map over and over again. They play extremely aggressively and are constantly moving, getting angles to fire, and pressuring the enemy.

If we had a hard heat cap of 30, that wouldn't be possible. Such a build would overheat on its second consecutive salvo. It would have to retreat, give ground, to buy time to cool off to continue shooting.

That high heat cap is what lends itself to such a high burst damage potential.... enough burst damage to kill/cripple even the largest mechs, like your Dire Wolf.

Before the hill climbing mechanics were put in, we had non-JJ mechs who could do a berm-drill just as quickly as a jump shot. But now? Look at Helmstif get stuck at 0:45:


Yep, one of the best HBK pilots in the game gets stuck at the drop ship on a knee-high incline. And PGI blabbered nonsense about how the hill-climbing mechanics would affect the "Light hunting" game, as if somehow it would help Light mechs escape from Heavies. I'll tell you that hill-climbing mechanics have probably gotten alot of non-JJ Medium and Light mech pilots get killed when their mechs got stuck at the most inopportune time.

Prior to the hill-climb mechanics you should've seen the way Helmstif could make his HBK dance on a ridgeline.

Here is the thing about jump-snipers: Either way, if you move around (like a sniper does) or simply pogo in the same spot, the strategy gives very little room for reprisal to the people that are being shot at by the jump sniper. Even against flankers, because of the increased mobility jump-snipers usually have with their jump-jets, they can put obstacles and distance between themselves and any potential flankers.

It is a low-risk, high-reward strategy. And both beginner mechwarriors and competitive teams flock to that manuever and build for that very reason.

The purpose of jump-jets were to allow 'mechs to get in advantageous positions, or get over difficult terrain. If you buff hill-climbing too much, then you essentially make jump-jets useless with the exception of this purpose: To get on top of terrain that is normally impossible to traverse (such as buildings). Thus, you make jump-jets a niche' addon that is not truly useful for situations outside of this, and dispersing damage to a 'mech's lower body (which can be good or bad depending on the 'mech).

I'm not saying jump-sniping needs to be eliminated, I'm simply saying it needs to be made into a high-risk, high-reward manuever; it needs to be made more difficult to pull off. And as long as jump-jets produce no heat, continue not to fall over after a bad landing, and the crosshair remains perfectly stable on the way down during a jump, that will NEVER happen. Jump-sniping will continue to be a low-risk, high-reward maneuver.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

If you're claiming a game is "realistic" then you HAVE to adhere to at least some of the random variables that are present in real life. Again, Mechwarrior advertises itself as a 31st century battlefield, mech-combat "simulator."

If you tack on the name "Mechwarrior" and use the word "simulator" in the intellectual property, then it behooves the developer to adhere to realism. Mechwarrior is not a "point-and-click" adventure. Nor is Mechwarrior supposed to be loaded with the cartoonish gagglef*ck mechanics and physics that it currently has. It never will be. If it is, and that is the type of game P.G.I. is going for, then this isn't Mechwarrior and nor is it battletech. It's simply an arcade 'mech game, and then they need to drop the name "Mechwarrior" or "Battletech" from the I.P.
All I'm saying is, this nerf/rework/whatever-the-[scrap]-you-want-to-call-it IS a step in the right direction, but it is only a half-step. There are physics and mechanics that are still present with JJ's that are still absurd. You say they reworked it perfectly? I say they didn't rework it enough. Crosshairs are still PERFECTLY STEADY on the downswing of a jump, jump-jets still produce ZERO heat, and 'mechs still don't fall over if they land from too high or on [scrap]ed up terrain. In short, they need to do more with jumpjets. If they are going to do more with them, fine, but that presumption has little evidence to back it up.

You're insisting on a narrow definition of a term that is rather broad when applied to gaming. We do not and cannot have a realistic physics simulator in MWO - nor would we want to, because the Battlemechs would break their legs walking down the stairs. At the end of the day, a recourse to realism isn't helpful for Battletech - or most combat games, really. Realistically, the Battlemechs wouldn't work, and the weapons available would make short work of the structural materials said to be used. But that's not any fun, so we scrap it and just worry about two things: aesthetics and balance. Balance is a game design decision, and varies with game format, while aesthetics is concerned with the look and feel. I've not said or implied anything about perfectly reworking jump jets; I've only spoken to game balance and the role that tabletop rules have in determining minutiae of game design. How exactly jump jet mechanics function is a game balance issue, so long as Mechs aren't flying around the map like LAMs - which is exactly what the jump jet rework is about.

Any way that I look at it, I can't see that simply calling the game a "simulation" in a line of description obligates the developers to adhere to a certain kind of jump jet mechanic or approximation of physics. The fact of the matter is that no material known to man, much less the materials that the flavor texts claim Battlemechs to be actually made from, would handle the stresses and weight of giant robot combat - fusion plant or no. We don't care, though; because giant robots are easier to identify with - it's part of what makes them awesome.

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Jump-sniping is supposed to be a high-risk, high-reward manuever. Currently, it is a low-risk, high-reward manuever that dominates the MWO playing fields. And I reckon it still will be (though to a slightly lesser degree) if Paul's proposal is implemented.

What do you mean by "supposed to be?" If you mean "under the tabletop rules it was," then I'm afraid you're rather mistaken - firing while jumping incurred a penalty both to hit and be hit: a low-risk, low-reward tactic. If, on the other hand, you mean "should be," then PGI agrees with you - and this is part of the intent for these changes, as you yourself agree. The issue of pinpoint damage isn't unique to jump jets however, so what you seem to be doing is to advocate a complex solution to a multi-system meta problem, and criticizing the change to this single system for not solving the whole shebang. Well, of course not! It's only one part of the problem. But it will help the problem noticeably by making jumping slower and more resource-intensive.

[ReXspec]

Void Angel, on 09 July 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Words.

Look, I'm not going to try to hash out what we define as "realistic" or falls under the definition of "simulation" so, I'll just go back to my original point to act as some sort of reference to what is plausible from both a realism standpoint, and a balance standpoint.

I appreciate that P.G.I. at least looked in the right direction, but a look, or a half-step is not enough. The bottom line is, a weapon system on a 'mech should not be perfectly accurate on the way up OR down during a jump, jumpjets (especially regular ones) should be emitting heat, 'mechs should be falling over during a botched jump, and non-reinforced legs should be taking far more damage. It makes no sense from a balance or realism standpoint to try what they're already doing unless the devs are simply trying to justify an absurd combat manuever that was rarely done in the first place because it was difficult to achieve for these very reasons--let alone the fact that their were very few 'mechs that were designed to jump-snipe in the first place.

Edited by ReXspec, 10 July 2014 - 12:11 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

Right, you can minimize these variables, but you can't ELIMINATE them. Adding realistic physics, ballistics,
etc. only serves to push the skill of a pilot to his/her limits, don't you think?

Realistic physics and ballistics are NOT variable, they are scientifically predictable to a measurable degree, and at the engagement ranges were talking about, the factors that are beyond a pilot's or 'mech's ability to observe, measure or control are insignificant when you consider the projectile velocity, so I'm not sure how the two assertions are connected.

Yes, realism is good, but realism means predictable, not random. Randomness does not challenge skill, it levels the playing field between those with skill and those without.

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Again, if this game does advertise itself to be at least somewhat realistic, then there shouldn't be perfect freaking, crosshair stability while a multi-ton 'mech is in mid-air. The crosshair should NOT be stable on ANY part of the jump. This crosshair shake can be lessened with improved jump-jets and targeting computers, but it should STILL be there. It doesn't make sense to eliminate physics from a game that is advertised and adheres to at least some sort of realism. Not to mention it's also impossible that regular jump-jets would not output some sort of heat. Even improved jump jets give out heat, though to a much lesser degree.

After you stop firing your jump jets, what physical forces would influence a 'mech's stability that would overwhelm it's gyro? Using your logic, it would make less sense for a 'mech to be able to fire while running than while falling through a consistent medium at a measurable speed.

Jump Jets do produce heat ... at the moment, it's pretty insignifcant, compared to firing an energy weapon, but it is there.

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(snip)
You CLEARLY have not been deployed or are apart of any military are you?

You had to go there, didn't you? I don't recall challenging your service or experience ... I'm guessing you're a US military veteran from your location. PM me if you want me to send you a copy of my latest LES. Thank you for your service, but be careful before questioning anyone else's.

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(snip) ballistics,

science ... predictable.

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wind,

measurable, easily overcome, and arguably negligable when considering a 1000 mps projectile within 1000m range trying to hit a target several meters wide.

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terrain, flora and fauna

observable, measurable, and static (except in the case of fauna ... however, while I'm concerned about hitting a deer in a car at 50 kph, a 'mech? not so much.)

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(snip) the devs need to take into account over the fact that guns are not going to be perfectly accurate--especially in specific environments and especially when a multi-ton 'mech is hurdling through the air.

Your assertion is not, as you claim, a "fact". A gyro-stabilized weapon system is accurate in much more dynamic environments than falling through the air with no forces except gravity acting upon the platform.