18 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

According to the command chair, jumpjets are based on chassis weight, engine , and jump jets. So does have a bigger engine make jump jets more efficient? Will a jenner with a 100 rating engine with 5 jump jets jump the same height as a jenner with a 300 rating with 5 jump jets?

[FupDup]

Oh joy, they add yet another reason for mechs to focus on the upper-end engines while customizing. Faster ground speed, more heatsink slots, and greater agility just weren't enough, apparently.

Edited by FupDup, 08 July 2014 - 02:41 PM.

[Sug]

"Table Top (TT) rules add 3 heat instantaneously upon using any number of Jump Jets. Now naturally we can't do that without severely penalizing anyone using a Jump Jet no matter the duration or how many are being fired."

....


"What this does is not cause a 'Mech to overheat.. but essentially it will stop the 'Mech from cooling down while Jump Jets are in use."

That's how they've been...

[Joseph Mallan]

ManDaisy, on 08 July 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

According to the command chair, jumpjets are based on chassis weight, engine , and jump jets. So does have a bigger engine make jump jets more efficient? Will a jenner with a 100 rating engine with 5 jump jets jump the same height as a jenner with a 300 rating with 5 jump jets?

having a bigger engine means you can have a greater ground speed. your ground speed influences how many jets you can have (on TT). That is likely the hidden meaning you are looking for.

[Khobai]

The only effect engine should have on jumpjets is the max number of jumpjets you can equip.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 08 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Oh joy, they add yet another reason for mechs to focus on the upper-end engines while customizing. Faster ground speed, more heatsink slots, and greater agility just weren't enough, apparently.

Don't forget greater hit detection failures!

[cSand]

FupDup, on 08 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Oh joy, they add yet another reason for mechs to focus on the upper-end engines while customizing. Faster ground speed, more heatsink slots, and greater agility just weren't enough, apparently.

Well, there's less weapons and armor to think about

[Koniving]

Quote

"Table Top (TT) rules add 3 heat instantaneously upon using any number of Jump Jets. Now naturally we can't do that without severely penalizing anyone using a Jump Jet no matter the duration or how many are being fired."

(Just using your quote here.)
What's funny to me is the supposed instantaneously, rather than across 10 seconds. You fire all weapons instantaneously, you hit instantaneously, you cool instantaneously...
....It's as if they keep forgetting about the ten second aspect. This led to rising thresholds (which don't rise; as you add more heatsinks you cool faster across 10 seconds), this led to ghost heat, lore-incorrect FLD ACs, and some god awful damage concepts requiring double armor in the first place.

So I went and addressed it.

Spoiler

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Not a good concept of the rules there mate. Or at least a partially incorrect concept.
Jumpjets give you 1 heat per jumpjet (with a MINIMUM of 3 heat) and 30 meters of horizontal movement, 2 levels (6 meters per height "level") per jumpjet.

This means you get 30 meters of movement, 12 meters of height per jumpjet in tabletop.

This is also over the span of 10 seconds, second you cannot while or run in the same turn it is natural to believe that it consumes the entire 10 seconds to get you (with 7 jumpjets) 210 meters of horizontal movement with 84/2 (42) meters (as there is descent as well if you plan on landing on a level surface) of total potential height for 7 heat.

Firing during this time gets a +3 modifier, meaning it's harder to hit while jumping than running (which is +2, which is harder to hit while walking which is +1).

The minimum of 3 heat regardless of space moved is to represent the consumption of jumpjet power required to launch the mech into said jump (where in MWO we simply tap it and the mech launches, in Battletech, it requires a bit of power and energy to launch the mech in -- depending on which author -- requires either a build up of thrust to accelerate into the launch while actively thrusting and consuming fuel, or in another author's account it precharges and bursts the mech into the air with only a little thrust left to help with maneuvering and landing). The vertical launch is supposed to be reasonably faster for multiple JJs, with plenty of fuel left over for what's required. The vertical launch of a single JJ however is supposed to eat much of the power available.

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I just tested it on megamek. 1 heat per jumpjet with a minimum of 3. Also if you read what I said... One JJ would be spent giving you mostly lift with very little room to land; just 12 meters maximum if you held it or if you tried to land safely you'd get 6 meters height.
With 2 you'd get 24 max (and splat down) or 12 meters with safe landing.

Also in each case you'd get 30 meters forward, so poptarting would literally be impossible since it would propel you forward.

Forward at a significantly faster rate than here.

Honestly if PGI stuck to the TT rules for the heat system in general, we'd rarely if ever hear complaints about pinpoint aim because 2 ER Large Lasers would cause you to potentially shutdown if fired at the same time without an override and detonate ammunition, but over 10 seconds you can easily fire 3. 2 ER PPCs could not be fired at the same time, though 2 regulars could be without trouble. Yet you can still churn out 4 ER PPCs in 10 seconds with 20 DHS and great risk to yourself.

All PPCs would also have a charge up mechanic, where regulars could have the charge up aspect greatly reduced (as it takes longer to charge up) by switching off the field inhibitor, removing the 90 meter minimum range penalty. Said min range penalty is not that the shot stops doing damage at 90 meters but is almost impossible to hit a fast moving target at close range due to the charge up mechanic in TT, reflected by said minimum range.

<.< All in all the game would be considerably more balanced with a favoritism to brawling... as all heat factors favored close range combat and heavily taxed long range.

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

I agree with the simplicity of MWO's jumpjet flight being too simple/easy, but how would you throw in a balancing (tilt to one side or the other, maintain balance) mechanic and the possibility of losing balance during flight?

Now, I'm in megamek, 3050 is the era, Griffin 3M. I can climb 18 meters with one movement (so I get more jump height than I thought with the initial test). That's 3 levels. Assuming a level is 6 meters as I recall if I recall correctly, that's 18 meters. But now... (Doing this in megamek as I write it), a horizontal jump of 30 meters but a vertical jump of 24 meters requires two points of jumpjet movement (or 2 JJs). So this seems to imply each JJ gives 18 meters max height [if you're landing on something higher, half that if you're landing softly on something even-level]. As if you go to your max height, you fall and splat without something to land on.

Another simpler idea that'd solve the whole press spacebar, instant height problem that caused all the other issues...

Spoiler

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

Now on another totally random note: What about simply enhancing the jumpjet lift power (with an accelerating rate, takes time to accelerate to max lifting power of the jumpjets with that acceleration being faster with more jumpjets) while completely removing the initial 'boost'?

No initial boost or sudden jump. Instead, lift off from the ground and accelerate upward (because right this second you get an instant 6 M/S boost and with 1 JJ you get 1 M/S per second... What if it starts from 0...and with each JJ you get faster acceleration which means faster lift which means more height and sooner before you run out, nearly requiring multiple JJs for more than hopping over pebbles).

Because in the initial thrust (just hit space bar) right this second, bam you're up in the air by 8+ meters in a Highlander due to the jumping animation and that's using ZERO thrust at all, I just tapped the button with a single JJ.

Removing the initial boost altogether / sudden jump animation would leave us with actually taking off.

Edited by Koniving, 08 July 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[FupDup]

cSand, on 08 July 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Well, there's less weapons and armor to think about

Depends on how you're building the robot. Sometimes, the saved critslots from putting more dubs in your engine can actually allow you to use things like Endo Steel, which would offset the extra tonnage of the engine. It's actually more efficient from a min-max standpoint in many cases, especially as you get into larger and larger mechs (which run out of critslots before they run out of tonnage, usually).

(Also, all mechs generally carry max armor or close to it, regardless of engine).

Edited by FupDup, 08 July 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 July 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

having a bigger engine means you can have a greater ground speed. your ground speed influences how many jets you can have (on TT). That is likely the hidden meaning you are looking for.

Or...to put into easier to understand terms for people that never played TT.....

You have a base "walk" speed to start with. Let's call it 30kph. Your run speed (maximum speed) is 1.5 X the walking speed.....in this case, it would be 50kph.

Your jumping movement (speed in this case, I guess...although it's weird to think of it that way) is limited to your walking speed. In TT, that means you can have a maximum of 3 jump jets. The weight of the jet is based on the weight of the chassis.

Here....it's not a matter of speed, it's a matter of distance....which really makes no sense, since the JJs push you up and not forward...it's complicated.

[Khobai]

Quote

Here....it's not a matter of speed, it's a matter of distance....which really makes no sense, since the JJs push you up and not forward...it's complicated.

The only mech I think would be adversely affected by engine size limiting jumpjets is the Spider. A spider wouldnt be able to have 12 jumpjets. Because its engine size wouldnt support it. The most it would be able to have is 8.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Khobai, on 08 July 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

The only mech I think would be adversely affected by engine size limiting jumpjets is the Spider. A spider wouldnt be able to have 12 jumpjets. Because its engine size wouldnt support it. The most it would be able to have is 8.

Well, for the SDR-5V mounting an XL 285, walking MP is 9.5 so if that is rounded up that brings the total Jump Jet max to 10, otherwise 9. So giving the SDR-5V a unique quirk of +2 or +3 Jump Jets would keep it at 12.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 08 July 2014 - 04:37 PM.

[Khobai]

Oh yeah i forgot that spider can go 170... so it would be 9-10 but definitely not 12.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

So 5 mechs walk into a bar, and each has 1 jump jet. A 35 ton Raven (175 eng), a 45 ton Blackjack (180 eng), a 50 ton Trebuchet (250 eng), a 60 ton Quickdraw (300 eng) and a 90 ton Highlander (270) engine. Who win the jumping contest?

[Khobai]

Quote

So 5 mechs walk into a bar, and each has 1 jump jet. A 35 ton Raven (175 eng), a 45 ton Blackjack (180 eng), a 50 ton Trebuchet (250 eng), a 60 ton Quickdraw (300 eng) and a 90 ton Highlander (270) engine. Who win the jumping contest?

Commando wins because it walks under the bar.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 08 July 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

Commando wins because it walks under the bar.

[Deathlike]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 08 July 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

So 5 mechs walk into a bar, and each has 1 jump jet. A 35 ton Raven (175 eng), a 45 ton Blackjack (180 eng), a 50 ton Trebuchet (250 eng), a 60 ton Quickdraw (300 eng) and a 90 ton Highlander (270) engine. Who win the jumping contest?

The Trebuchet, because it's way too tall while having a large engine.

This is the meta Paul was talking about amirite?

[Felbombling]

They should enforce max Jump Jet values, tied directly to Mech tonnage and engine size. If a Mech has the engine rating at it's tonnage to support five Jump Jets, as does the Timber Wolf, for example, then the player has a choice. Take zero Jump Jets or a package of five Jump Jets. Seems fair and balanced to me, even if Omni Pod enforcement is required to meet the Jump Jet requirement. Half the issue with the jump snipe meta is Mechs being able to do it with one or two jump jets. I have zero issue with the Jump Snipers... just pay for the privilege in tonnage, crit slots and heat generation.

[EgoSlayer]

FupDup, on 08 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Oh joy, they add yet another reason for mechs to focus on the upper-end engines while customizing. Faster ground speed, more heatsink slots, and greater agility just weren't enough, apparently.

Yeah, what the eff...

Jump Jet Update

Quote

The amount of lift you get is based on Chassis Weight and engine size so the graph would have to be stacked with every chassis/engine combination and their respective values making it very hard to read.

So now shift of the meta is putting the biggest engine you can to get the minimum number of jets needed for your desired height. Why does Paul always go for the complex, and likely completed undocumented in game, solutions? JJ's should be a fixed thrust/lift on chassis only and the only thing the engine size should affect the the number of jets you can mount.
[shakes head]