147 replies to this topic

[Russ Bullock]

As we begin to offer the Clan Mechs for purchase via C-Bills and MC, you’ll probably notice that they tend to be more expensive than most Inner Sphere Mechs of an equivalent weight. This post will take a look at why that is, using the Prime variant of the Kit Fox as an example.

First, let’s take a look at how the cost of the Kit Fox Prime breaks down. Warning: Lots of numbers ahead!

Chassis:

• 30 ton chassis:
  
  • 579,517 C-Bills

Fixed Equipment:

• XL 180 Engine:
  
  • 2,939,750 C-Bills
• 3x Double Heat Sink:
  
  • 36,000 C-Bills
• SUBTOTAL:
  
  • 2,975,750 C-Bills

Non-Fixed Equipment:

• Streak SRM 4
  
  • 180,000 C-Bills
• Streak SRM Ammo
  
  • 54,000 C-Bills
• LB 5-X AC
  
  • 500,000 C-Bills
• LB 5-X Cluster Ammo
  
  • 15,030 C-Bills
• ER Large Laser
  
  • 400,000 C-Bills
• Small Pulse Laser
  
  • 32,000 C-Bills
• SUBTOTAL:
  
  • 1,181,030 C-Bills

Armor:

• 152 points of Ferro-Fibrous armor:
  
  • 84,816 C-Bills

OmniPods:

• 8x Kit Fox OmniPods (148,381 C-Bills/OmniPod):
  
  • 1,187,048 C-Bills

TOTAL:

• Chassis:
  
  • 579,517 C-Bills
• Fixed Equipment:
  
  • 2,975,750 C-Bills
• Non-Fixed Equipment:
  
  • 1,181,030 C-Bills
• Armor:
  
  • 84,816 C-Bills
• OmniPods:
  
  • 1,187,048 C-Bills
• GRAND TOTAL:
  
  • 6,008,161 C-Bills
    
  • 2,405 MC (@ 2,500 C-Bills/MC, the normal exchange rate for all standard Mechs)

Now, this may seem like a lot and, to be honest, it is. The Kit Fox has a higher C-Bill price than any Inner Sphere Light Mech that’s in the game. But the cost is all accounted for. There are two main culprits accounting for the bulk of the cost, and we’ll take a look at each of those.

XL Engine
All of the Clan Mechs currently in the game come equipped with XL Engines. As you may have noticed, the engine in any Mech tends to be the single most expensive component, and XL engines cost about 2.66x more than their standard counterparts. When you look through the costs of the Inner Sphere Mechs, sometimes you’ll find that one or two variants of a given chassis cost several million more C-Bills than the other variants. Those more expensive variants tend to be so because they have an XL Engine. For a Light Mech, which only costs a few million to begin with, adding a few million more because of an XL Engine can more than double the Mech’s cost.

OmniPods
OmniPods are a new addition to the game and are, for the time being, exclusive to Clan Mechs. OmniPods have a cost associated with them as they can be bought even if you don’t own a particular variant, as well as they can be sold off from your inventory. As every OmniMech comes will the full set of OmniPods for its variant, the cost for those OmniPods is built into the Mech.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Honestly, If the xl was not chassis locked that would be nice. However since it is locked with all clan mechs that should be taken into account. After all it isn't like we could rip it out and put a bigger or smaller one in. is it.

Other than that one point. I figured they would be more pricey. Thanks for the info.

[Jman5]

Why don't you offer base models without all non fixed equipment?

[Laserkid]

Now do a Timberwolf with that massive 375XL. Buying that 3 times is pretty expensive.

Edited by Laserkid, 08 July 2014 - 05:06 PM.

[Jin Ma]

meh

[Wintersdark]

6m for a light is actually pretty damn reasonable, given that you don't need to tweak it beyond maybe shifting some weapons around (free, once you've got a couple clan mechs and some weapons in your inventory). Consider IS lights, they're basically all 10m-12m to get a usable build going on.

Yes, initial purchase price is high, but the cheap IS lights are totally unusable in MWO in stock form baring Stock Mech nights, anyways!

A kitfox, for example, is realistically going to end up costing you 8m cbills barring using really heavy autocannons in silly builds.

[Pezzer]

Wish we would get a slight discount on the stock OmniPods when purchasing a chassis, partly to cut down on insane costs and partly to encourage running stock.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Your late, we already worked out the math (more or less) days ago in the battemech section of the forums we came to the conclusion that you could emulate a clan mechs price by creating a IS version on smurfy using as close aproximate tech and upgrades as possible.

[MonkeyCheese]

Eh still cheaper in the long run than IS mechs. And then there is the engine swapping. I have like 11 mechs that use a single xl295 that I constantly swap around and when one mech is locked in a match the other 10 mechs are now useless. None of that ever happening on clan mechs so it is a good initial investment.

[Tastian]

Works for me. But, then again, I already bought it with $. Can't wait to see what the others cost.

[Karamarka]

Good post.

[ElCadaver]

This is where I feel we are approaching the pay to win horizon. Not that all clan mechs are great, but with more experience, better pilots are going to be able to get more out of their clan mechs than IS mechs ton-for-ton. This will make a difference in the competitve arena, and clan warfare, both of which I want to compete in.

I've spent enough money on MWO at this point. I've decided to get clan mechs with C-bills. Probably the Madcat, Direwolf and Nova Variants.

I've been grinding away in my Misery and Muromets (yes, I have purchased MC). I'm pretty good damage and kill wise, and can usually bring in 150,000-200,000 cbills per win, without premium time.

I have 21 mil C-bills atm. I doubt I will be able to save enough even for the direwolf variants by the time they are available for c-bills in September (circa 25-29 mil c-bills each according to Sarna, so probably more on MWO).

The Grindy grind was bearable with IS mechs in the beginning, but the business structure is raising the stakes for free to play players by, in my opinion, making it impossible to get into the most competitve mechs without Insufferable grind ( I predict seeing Madcats, Novas and Kitfoxes featuring heavily in 12mans in the future competitions)

As others have argued, it takes almost twice as much to get mechs kitted out for comp. This holds true at the lower weight limits, but the disparity increases in the 85-100 ton range where you only need 3-5 mil extra to get a DDC up to spec, making the total investment about 15 mil, which will be less than half a direwolf.

Thoughts?

Edited by ElCadaver, 08 July 2014 - 06:05 PM.

[Diznitch]

In racing we have a saying, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" Clan Mechs are basically fully upgraded out of the box, and they have a lot more firepower than the IS mechs which are half the price.

So I guess my thought as a player is, "Firepower costs money (MC or CBills). How much firepower do you want?"

[Koniving]

Marack Drock, on 08 July 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Wow. That is almost the same price as my Jenner JR-7F... Clan mechs supposed to be around 2 times more any mech of their weight class.

Actually the Tabletop price of a Kitfox prime is 5,368,837 C-bills....

• 1x LB-X Autocannon/5
  
• 1x ER Large Laser
  
• 1x Small Pulse Laser
  
• 1x Streak SRM-4

So we're paying more for it. (Fun fact: Switching the Kitfox to a standard engine; illegal in TT I know but hey it's megamek; game treats it like a new mech. Resulting price with all the same equipment, invalid weight naturally, is "Cost: 3,526,900 C-bills")



Now mind you, the Dire Wolf is tabletop to be 29,350,000 C-bills, but will be LOADS cheaper in MWO...

And I believe Russ's explanation just gave us the reason why which I've been thinking of for a while: MWO has standardized the prices of XL engines (as well as potentially customized prices on all parts; but the true cost is in the XL engines; that's where they vary greatly away from tabletop prices otherwise we have Atlas K's at 22 million).

In Battletech, each class has its own price even on identical engines.
An XL 300 for a Jenner is just barely over 4,200,000 cbills. In MWO it's 4,900,000 cbills or so.
For a 100 ton battlemech such as the Atlas K, the price difference when trading out the engines as if a pure stock mech in TT is 12,000,000 + whatever the cost is of a standard 300 engine. That's without any of the changing mech technician rolls, that's just literally base level pricing as if another Atlas config with identical weapons and equipment.

(This also makes a clear point; engines are not intended to be interchangeable; the 300 of a 35 ton mech isn't supposed to fit a 100 ton mech even if you can fit a 300 engine into it; evidently they're not identical or even compatible engines even if the weight is; otherwise why would one be over 12 million while the other is less than 5 million?).

The price of a Dire Wolf's engine difference when using Megamek to change from an XL 300 to a standard 300 (illegal I know, but done for an experiment), the price of the entire Dire Wolf becomes "Cost: 13,975,000 C-bills," from the price "Cost: 29,350,000 C-bills" which is a difference of 15,375,000 cbills + the cost of a Clan standard 300 engine for a 100 ton mech.. That 15 mil+ is for the engine alone.

Since the XL engines are standardized in price, the tiniest ones will be more expensive than tabletop (since the price doesn't go down for smaller mechs), and the larger ones will be cheaper (since the price doesn't go up as you go higher).

(Sorry for the edits which subsequently would quote you there. Wanted to make sure it was neat and tidy and clear for those who read.)

Edit 7/9/2014.
Looking at the XL engine price, Clan XL engines are exactly as expensive as IS XL engines.
That said... We know the Dire Wolf's engine will be 4,900,000 c-bills.
This easily puts the Dire Wolf between 12,000,000 and 15,000,000 cbills in a rough estimate.

When I previously rough estimated for a Dire Wolf's price, I gathered about late 13 mil to 14,400,000 cbills give or take up to 90,000. So we're still in the same ballpark.

Edited by Koniving, 09 July 2014 - 03:15 AM.

[Dracol]

Thanks for the break down of cost. The omnipod costs were kinda of a surprise. IS mechs you by a chassis and it comes with head, arms, and legs at no additional cost.

[Destructicus]

ElCadaver, on 08 July 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

This is where I feel we are approaching the pay to win horizon.

That didn't take long
Now we're gonna complain about how long it takes to get something for free and call it pay2win

[Vanguard319]

ElCadaver, on 08 July 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

This is where I feel we are approaching the pay to win horizon. Not that all clan mechs are great, but with more experience, better pilots are going to be able to get more out of their clan mechs than IS mechs ton-for-ton. This will make a difference in the competitve arena, and clan warfare, both of which I want to compete in.

I've spent enough money on MWO at this point. I've decided to get clan mechs with C-bills. Probably the Madcat, Direwolf and Nova Variants.

I've been grinding away in my Misery and Muromets (yes, I have purchased MC). I'm pretty good damage and kill wise, and can usually bring in 150,000-200,000 cbills per win, without premium time.

I have 21 mil C-bills atm. I doubt I will be able to save enough even for the direwolf variants by the time they are available for c-bills in September (circa 25-29 mil c-bills each according to Sarna, so probably more on MWO).

The Grindy grind was bearable with IS mechs in the beginning, but the business structure is raising the stakes for free to play players by, in my opinion, making it impossible to get into the most competitve mechs without Insufferable grind ( I predict seeing Madcats, Novas and Kitfoxes featuring heavily in 12mans in the future competitions)

As others have argued, it takes almost twice as much to get mechs kitted out for comp. This holds true at the lower weight limits, but the disparity increases in the 85-100 ton range where you only need 3-5 mil extra to get a DDC up to spec, making the total investment about 15 mil, which will be less than half a direwolf.

Thoughts?

That's fine, No one said you must buy clan mechs with MC. It depends on whether you want those mechs badly enough to buy them, or are patient enough to wait for them to become available for C-bills. As for myself, I've been saving up my C-bills with buying a Stormcrow in mind.

[Vanguard319]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Actually the Tabletop price of a Kitfox prime is 5,368,837 C-bills....

• 1x LB-X Autocannon/5
  
• 1x ER Large Laser
  
• 1x Small Pulse Laser
  
• 1x Streak SRM-4

So we're paying more for it. (Fun fact: Switching the Kitfox to a standard engine; illegal in TT I know but hey it's megamek; game treats it like a new mech. Resulting price with all the same equipment, invalid weight naturally, is "Cost: 3,526,900 C-bills")



Now mind you, the Dire Wolf is tabletop to be 29,350,000 C-bills, but will be LOADS cheaper in MWO...

And I believe Russ's explanation just gave us the reason why which I've been thinking of for a while: MWO has standardized the prices of XL engines (as well as potentially customized prices on all parts; but the true cost is in the XL engines; that's where they vary greatly away from tabletop prices otherwise we have Atlas K's at 22 million).

In Battletech, each class has its own price even on identical engines.
An XL 300 for a Jenner is just barely over 4,200,000 cbills. In MWO it's 4,900,000 cbills or so.
For a 100 ton battlemech such as the Atlas K, the price difference when trading out the engines as if a pure stock mech in TT is 12,000,000 + whatever the cost is of a standard 300 engine. That's without any of the changing mech technician rolls, that's just literally base level pricing as if another Atlas config with identical weapons and equipment.

(This also makes a clear point; engines are not intended to be interchangeable; the 300 of a 35 ton mech isn't supposed to fit a 100 ton mech even if you can fit a 300 engine into it; evidently they're not identical or even compatible engines even if the weight is; otherwise why would one be over 12 million while the other is less than 5 million?).

The price of a Dire Wolf's engine difference when using Megamek to change from an XL 300 to a standard 300 (illegal I know, but done for an experiment), the price of the entire Dire Wolf becomes "Cost: 13,975,000 C-bills," from the price "Cost:
29,350,000 C-bills" which is a difference of 15,375,000 cbills + the cost of a Clan standard 300 engine for a 100 ton mech..

Since the XL engines are standardized in price, the tiniest ones will be more expensive than tabletop (since the price doesn't go down for smaller mechs), and the larger ones will be cheaper (since the price doesn't go up as you go higher).

(Sorry for the edits which subsequently would quote you there. Wanted to make sure it was neat and tidy and clear for those who read.)

Hey, it could be worse, I once built a medium mech in SSW that retailed for over 100 million C-bills (XXL engines and other experimental tech ftw!)

[Felicitatem Parco]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Actually the Tabletop price of a Kitfox prime is 5,368,837 C-bills....

• 1x LB-X Autocannon/5
  
• 1x ER Large Laser
  
• 1x Small Pulse Laser
  
• 1x Streak SRM-4

So we're paying more for it. (Fun fact: Switching the Kitfox to a standard engine; illegal in TT I know but hey it's megamek; game treats it like a new mech. Resulting price with all the same equipment, invalid weight naturally, is "Cost: 3,526,900 C-bills")




Now mind you, the Dire Wolf is tabletop to be 29,350,000 C-bills, but will be LOADS cheaper in MWO...

And I believe Russ's explanation just gave us the reason why which I've been thinking of for a while: MWO has standardized the prices of XL engines (as well as potentially customized prices on all parts; but the true cost is in the XL engines; that's where they vary greatly away from tabletop prices otherwise we have Atlas K's at 22 million).

In Battletech, each class has its own price even on identical engines.
An XL 300 for a Jenner is just barely over 4,200,000 cbills. In MWO it's 4,900,000 cbills or so.
For a 100 ton battlemech such as the Atlas K, the price difference when trading out the engines as if a pure stock mech in TT is 12,000,000 + whatever the cost is of a standard 300 engine. That's without any of the changing mech technician rolls, that's just literally base level pricing as if another Atlas config with identical weapons and equipment.

(This also makes a clear point; engines are not intended to be interchangeable; the 300 of a 35 ton mech isn't supposed to fit a 100 ton mech even if you can fit a 300 engine into it; evidently they're not identical or even compatible engines even if the weight is; otherwise why would one be over 12 million while the other is less than 5 million?).

The price of a Dire Wolf's engine difference when using Megamek to change from an XL 300 to a standard 300 (illegal I know, but done for an experiment), the price of the entire Dire Wolf becomes "Cost: 13,975,000 C-bills," from the price "Cost:
29,350,000 C-bills" which is a difference of 15,375,000 cbills + the cost of a Clan standard 300 engine for a 100 ton mech..

Since the XL engines are standardized in price, the tiniest ones will be more expensive than tabletop (since the price doesn't go down for smaller mechs), and the larger ones will be cheaper (since the price doesn't go up as you go higher).

(Sorry for the edits which subsequently would quote you there. Wanted to make sure it was neat and tidy and clear for those who read.)

Dude, this has been said in several other threads... and yet it's rarely quoted. i am proud to quote this statement.

People usually focus on quoting inflammatory statements, and not the calming ones. It's not very exciting to quote someone who's using logic and rational reasoning to explain that things aren't going to be as bad as the Chicken Littles say it will be. It's more exciting to quote Chicken Little.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 July 2014 - 07:34 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Do not think we are even close to pay2win with the pricing yet. And I will Cbill the stromcrow as well. But..Well the kitfox is nice enough. But I think I will skip it. And will have to give the deathbus a closer look over to decide on it.

I really do not think it is the prices are too high for the grind. It is just the XP grind is too big to get competitive quickly enough. However that is another conversation.