44 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

vesarius6, on 12 July 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

See if this point here "that elo would eventually put you down where you need to be" wasn't completely wrong, everything else you said might hold some truth.
It. Does. Not.
The current elo spread is nearly 75% of the entire range on any given day. This means it is possible for someone with cadet bonus to drop against lords (it can and does happen every day) in the current matchmaker setup.

I'm curious, which game out there with a matchmaker pits pugs against full premades right now? I can't think of one, can you?

How does a 3 man in a pug queue constitute a stomp in your eyes, yet a 12 man vs 3-5 smaller groups doesn't? Baffling. I get that you folks are enjoying ****** everything in sight with your large groups but it's not going to last sorry pal.

Why shouldn't New players drop against the Lords? Seriously. When I first came to this game I wanted to fight against every single member (barring corp mates) I still do? I don't care if they are lightyears out of my present league, You don't get better by facing the status quo.

[Adiuvo]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 July 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

Why shouldn't New players drop against the Lords? Seriously. When I first came to this game I wanted to fight against every single member (barring corp mates) I still do? I don't care if they are lightyears out of my present league, You don't get better by facing the status quo.

Because we kill teams like that in under 2 minutes. I think our record is somewhere around 90 seconds.

You don't learn anything in that kind of situation, at least without it happening over and over again. If they were scrimming us and we dropped right after a match, then it would be different. Just getting a one-off 90 second game is pretty pointless though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 12 July 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Because we kill teams like that in under 2 minutes. I think our record is somewhere around 90 seconds.

You don't learn anything in that kind of situation, at least without it happening over and over again. If they were scrimming us and we dropped right after a match, then it would be different. Just getting a one-off 90 second game is pretty pointless though.

Teams like that deserve to be killed that fast! Sorry sir but frankly I want a combat game and combat is not often fair and balanced. I am fine walking into a slaughter IF you are that much batter than me and mine. And if the match is over in 2 minutes you get to move on to another match all the faster. Its a win win.

[Roland]

vesarius6, on 12 July 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

How does a 3 man in a pug queue constitute a stomp in your eyes, yet a 12 man vs 3-5 smaller groups doesn't? Baffling. I get that you folks are enjoying ****** everything in sight with your large groups but it's not going to last sorry pal.

The reality is though, that I play generally in a very SMALL group, and don't get ground down even when going up against most large groups... because most large groups are still not competitive players anyway. They're just larger groups of uncompetitive folks.

And if I go up against some organized group? I don't really mind.

[Kutfroat]

Voidcrafter, on 12 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

That.
Cause of the new system now I prefer playing alone cause it's more enjoyable.
The solo queue is fine in most of the cases, for me at least - but when you get into the group.... ^all I said.

EDIT: and another thing - ordinary the up-to-4 man groups are groups formed for that sole reason - 4 people to have fun when talking all sorts of sillyness - while the larger groups are formed to have a group, competitive play experience - if we presume that both cases are present and there's a chance for a single up-to-4-man group to drop into the solo queue a question arise -
Why don't we get that choice?
Do we really, REALLY trust the MM that much to leave it make it for us?
Ok - leave it all the same, don't change a thing - but add us an option to chose in which queue do we wanna roll with a group of up-to-4-man at least...

are you really that egocentric and shortsighted or just plain, sorry for it, stupid? so, it´s not ok if your 4 man group gets stomped by larger groups, but it´s ok for you to stomp in the puggroup as a 4 man premade...wow, just wow. just take a second to think about it, which is sad, because everyone with an avergage i.q. can see the flaw in less than a second. i predicted that there will be many whiners after the introduction of a soloqueue, because they lose their easymode...but i could not see that coming, after only 2 weeks, ******* everywhere. and yes, i´m upset, because "we" (the soloplayers) had to listen to so much craptalk and elitism by "wannabe pro" premade players that took advantage of a system that never should have been in the game from the start. maybe the soloplayers just want to have...wait for it...*gasp*....some fun!? why should´nt we get the choice to NOT Play with groups? no, it´s ok for them to get stomped by your little group that just wants to have fun...really, i...wow...just wow...

Edited by Kutfroat, 12 July 2014 - 11:51 PM.

[NextGame]

solo queue is currently about the most boring thing imaginable

[Alistair Winter]

I really feel this problem would be close to solved if MM worked differently. Instead of achieving balance by putting 1 low ELO and 1 high ELO on both teams, or 6 low ELO players and 6 high ELO players on both teams, I'd prefer longer waiting times if it meant that I could expect to only face players at my own ELO level, on both teams.

It's not just that I don't like seeing opponents with a much lower or higher ELO on the other team. Of course, there's no fun in a stomp whether you're giving or receiving. But what I particularly despise is having teammates with an ELO that is much lower than my own, whether we're winning or losing. Watching my team split up for no particular reason, constantly reminding Atlas pilots that they shouldn't chase squirrels, or telling my team not to wander into the open without ECM cover when the enemy team has 4 Stalker LRM boats up on a hill. And people telling me (in so far as I can understand their poor English) to shut up and mind my business, just seconds before (or even after) they die miserably, in spite of my warnings.

Herding cats. It's not fun.

[ztac]

Yes the matchmaker is to blame for most of our woes, but the system used is very flawed anyway and even correctly implementing the ELO would still not be effective.

You have to develop a robust ELO system that is based on the players individual performance which is kind of hard to do accurately in a multiplayer game. Thinks like kills/death are not really any indicator at all as are wins or losses.

Match performance scores with any team effects removed will probably be as close as you will get , but even these are affected by overall team performance .

The next problem posed is the mech performance level /firepower/modules used and those extra's like arty or air strikes.
This is actually a very large problem as even if you did balance this there could be a large value of firepower on 1 mech in the team and losing this would drastically reduce the teams firepower (lets say an assault has a great loadout and other members have quite poor ones for instance and you lose the assault).

Of course any comprehensive matchmaker would actually require a large player base to work , even with the current system the matchmaker has to 'relax' parameters and is maybe part of the reason (a very big part unless the matchmaker is really bad fundamentally )why matches are so one sided!

In essence there are an awful lot of variables to properly try to match any game. I don't think that anyone really thinks it is easy , it just appears easy until you really think about it , then you realise that potentially you could just end up spinning a never ending web to get 'the perfect match'.

Edited by ztac, 13 July 2014 - 12:37 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Teams like that deserve to be killed that fast! Sorry sir but frankly I want a combat game and combat is not often fair and balanced. I am fine walking into a slaughter IF you are that much batter than me and mine. And if the match is over in 2 minutes you get to move on to another match all the faster. Its a win win.

Your desire, and the desire of the vast majority of players, do not match up. Letting new/poor players mostly fight each other is how you let the new players learn the ropes so they don't get scared off before they even learn how to select a target. Your desire to be given uneven matches is frankly irrelevant.

That being said, I have an actual solution to present to OP:

You and your friend should hop on the MWO teamspeak server and see if there are any groups that want two more. That way you get to be a part of the larger groups, and when you go up against the other large groups you should be on more even footing.

If you don't want to do that, do what my pal and I did the other night: every game communicate how big your group is, ask your team how big their group(s) is/are, and be prepared to follow along with larger groups' plans, even if they are bad. Everyone following a bad plan is more likely to succeed than two players following a good plan.

[Karl Marlow]

Piney, on 12 July 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

My experience has been a little rough with 2 man groups. I did have one match, though, where the main group told us where they needed us and we had a good game running with the pack.

If the larger group leaders filled the smaller groups in on the plan in chat, it would make for a better game for the both the large group and the small group(s),

Just tell the small group(s) what's up and where you need them.

I've been working on doing that more and more now that I know there are teams dropping with my group. It is frustrating as all heck when the 2 or 3 man group decides to leroy in or ignore markers from the 10 man they are attached to.

A Word of advice to the OP and everyone who is dropping in smaller groups. If you are the 2 man. Stick with the 10 man. They might not have the greatest strategy ever but your odds of success are far greater than going at the enemy team by yourselves. Odds are they are going to appreciate you at least sticking with them and helping focus down targets.

[Voidcrafter]

Kutfroat, on 12 July 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

are you really that egocentric and shortsighted or just plain, sorry for it, stupid? so, it´s not ok if your 4 man group gets stomped by larger groups, but it´s ok for you to stomp in the puggroup as a 4 man premade...wow, just wow. just take a second to think about it, which is sad, because everyone with an avergage i.q. can see the flaw in less than a second. i predicted that there will be many whiners after the introduction of a soloqueue, because they lose their easymode...but i could not see that coming, after only 2 weeks, ******* everywhere. and yes, i´m upset, because "we" (the soloplayers) had to listen to so much craptalk and elitism by "wannabe pro" premade players that took advantage of a system that never should have been in the game from the start. maybe the soloplayers just want to have...wait for it...*gasp*....some fun!? why should´nt we get the choice to NOT Play with groups? no, it´s ok for them to get stomped by your little group that just wants to have fun...really, i...wow...just wow...

So you haven't read a 10% of my starting note and you're jumping on calling me shortsithed and stupid - well that's ironic
You know how I know how much effort you put into getting beyound your sights into understanding what I said?
Read my posts and find exactly where I've complained about the solo state and me having troubles with it?
And tell me where I've noted some solo queue experience while being in a group?
I can help you with that - nowhere.
I've never ever ever dropped in the solo Q while being even with a single person in group - my experience from the solo queue - again - the one I'm completely happy with it - is comming from solo dropping in the solo queue.
From that you can get the conlusion that:
1) I've always ended up playing against a premade while being in the solo queue
2) I don't have anything against it

Hell - always gave those grouped up guys to me to handle it - I don't care - I always tend to intentionally search for them so I can soften them up and make it easier for my team mates(or atleast to equal the score a bit) - I am the one that's intentionally engaging the premade while in the solo queue.
And since you're talking from focused solo experience(at least that's what I figured out while reading your post) - how competent you think you are to judge my words so harshly, while the topic's idea was sugesting a way to "tweak" the GROUP queue so groups with fewer numbers don't end up against a single group with larger(8/9/10+) numbers of players?
You don't read carefully - cool.
You don't try to get to the idea, which by not a single way harms the solo queue - cool.
You don't try to understand side point of view - cool.
Calling with all that in mind another person stupid and shortsitghted - not cool

Anyways - about the ELO relaxing and lowering after "few" games - I haven't saw that this far and I think I know the reason for it -
The MM has a very (un)forgiving range for that matter.
It's main goal is to find a game - it starts all puppies and butterflies - trying to find the perfect, imba balanced game for you - and all is cool.
But after 2 mins+ mins of "searching..." circling animation - can someone bet his head that things are all still the same?
It starts with the compromises "this guy has a 50% higher ELO - but he sort-of matches the needed weight" - or vice versa - or "this 10 guys in a single premade needs another at least 8 guys - but hell with it - I'm dropping them agains two groups of 3 and one group of 2, cause for the last 2+ mins there aint any other candidates!".
Well in that manner - I'm one of those guys that prefer waiting 10 mins(if I have to) instead of my time being wasted in a 12 minute game, that's a defeat even before I've had the chance to saw the loading screen.
In my opinion again - 3 groups of 3 people + one group of 2 people + a solo player is NOT a good match for a group of 10 + a group of 2.
Is NOT a good match for a group of 9 + 3 and (sort of) for a group of 8 + 4.
The match maker MUST handle this.
The match maker MUST be able to find a good match for 2/3 people that are new to the game - happened to be friends and decieded to drop together.
The match maker MUST NOT punish you for decieding you really wish to play with a really new and low ELO level bud.

And what's your problem with an up-to-4-man premade having the choice to either drop in the solo or the group queue exactly?
I am playing 80%+ of the time solo(3/4 hours or more every day) and I think just ONE premade per each team is not only OK but could be educating and healthy for the gameplay(in the terms of challenge), providing that there're not completely new to the game players in either team.
Giving an option to have none is also cool - but I feel it like an easy mode for me - no offence

My idea is all about separating stuff a bit - so the game is forgiving toward the different sorts of group composition.
Now currently - that's neither "fine" nor "working at all".
Not for me - or the experience I had with the game since the last patch.

[Motroid]

Voidcrafter, on 12 July 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

So Roland point is that I'm bad - I can start taking screens from this moment forward a whole week to prove his scrap talk wrong if he insist.
Why does it always have to be the "l2p" stuff - whoever fought with me/against me knows I am decent(to say the least) brawler even when I'm experimenting/leveling new mechs.
You have no proof of what you're saying so I'll kindly ask you to shut up - as I don't have proof of the fact, that there's a good player behind my words.
Again - you're not reading - I'm not complaining about the defeats - I am SAYING that the experience I've had with 80+% of group the games isn't a good one in terms of balance and having fun.
I can (most of the time)feel a close game even if it ends 12/0 and the games I'm talking about are not of that kind.
I'm talking about a game that had nothing to do with the things either I or my team mates have done during the match time.
I'm talking about a 12 player composition from 3+ teams against a 12 player composition of 1 team(or 1 team + 1 solo player or 1 team + 2 man grop).
That kind of games should never occur.
Ever.
If we should trust the matchmaker he MUST put the players in, at least, average fair conditions.
There are 12 player teams, some of them feel cool when they stomp uppon 3/4 group team compositions but all in all - the players who play in smaller teams and solo are the main player base and deserve more.
I deserve more reward to the efort I am putting in the game.
So it's that simple - either way - when I drop in a small group(up to 3) I DO NOT wish to end up in a game with a team of 8+ premade.
There's nothing to learn from this game 8/10 cases - because you're not playing your or some common game - you're playing the game the other team have decieded to play.
The teams I've faced had light scouts spotters(mostly with tag), few(3 or 4 most cases) dedicated LRM boats and the rest of them were meta builds - team comosition for a competitive 12 man matches.
The team mates I was mostly teamed up with, were 2 other groups of either 3 or for(in the case of 3 - there were another one of 3 or one of 2 and one solo player) - in my observations - players willing to play for fun more rather than for the competitive challenge.
Sum that up - with the abscence of coms, the fact, that no one paid even the slightest attention to my attempts to organize the team - you'll think that's a rare case scenario?
Nope.
Every time I get teamed up with even a single mate - in a team of two - we get that kind of games to some degree about 80+% of the time.
Let's be honest with each other - what could you learn from this kind of game?
Aside from the specacular team play display of the enemy... nothing.
And what chance do you have, if not to win, to have fun when you get focus fired from few meta builds, tagged, while focus fired by swarms of LRMs?

Yea - my solution is a bad one for 9/10/11 player teams - but's a good one for solo, 2 man, 3 man, 4 man, 5 man, 6 man, 7 man, 8 man and - in terms of having a challenge instead of targets to shoot at- 12 man teams.

I don't mind playing that level of organized and competitive playstyle but in 2/3 man groups? For real?
You know how tough and slow the learning curve of the game is already - especially for the new players - a lot of time will pass before the common player get there. Enforcing it that way won't lead to anything good.
But again - all that is just my personal opinion

Just a little tip on a side note (Maybe it has been mentioned before):
It helped me when running small groups with 2-3 that we all together refrained from picking heavies and assault class mechs.
The reason is simple because the larger groups of 8-10 will most likley pick 3 heavies and assaults already and we want to fill them up rather than get a patchwork team of 3/4/3/2 when we choose to roll the heavies and assault mechs our own.
This adjustment shifted the small group experience in a positive way.
When running small groups don't pick the heavies and assault mechs. Give it a try. Give the MM the chance to fill a large group with your small group. Use your brain.

[Voidcrafter]

Motroid, on 13 July 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

Just a little tip on a side note (Maybe it has been mentioned before):
It helped me when running small groups with 2-3 that we all together refrained from picking heavies and assault class mechs.
The reason is simple because the larger groups of 8-10 will most likley pick 3 heavies and assaults already and we want to fill them up rather than get a patchwork team of 3/4/3/2 when we choose to roll the heavies and assault mechs our own.
This adjustment shifted the small group experience in a positive way.
When running small groups don't pick the heavies and assault mechs. Give it a try. Give the MM the chance to fill a large group with your small group. Use your brain.

Mate I know that quite well - the scenarios I describe is when I drop with a single mate or two in a match with 2/3 other teams on our side and 8/10+ premade on the other - if the games were 10/2 vs 10/2 and 8/4 vs 8/4 or 4/4/4 vs 4/4/4 this post's exsistence would be none.
The games I've played were 3/4/3/2 vs 8/10/12 mans and 4/4/2 vs 8/10/12 man - now that's just not right in my eyes.
Whatever strategies you try - this obscacle requires way better comms that the current game state have implemented, because you're playing against a group two times(the least) the size of the largest group in your team that's on comms and it's coordinated.
It's a stomp and I see no other way for this game to end - I wish this to be adjusted somehow and thus my idea.
In my experience - I remember only once dropping with 8 steiners - all the other games my team's groups were shattered to smaller pieces.
(Btw that game was against 10/11 man premade and we've lost - but it was a decent game)

That kind of scenarios bothers me - not dropping with groups at all

[Roland]

Voidcrafter, on 13 July 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Mate I know that quite well - the scenarios I describe is when I drop with a single mate or two in a match with 2/3 other teams on our side and 8/10+ premade on the other

Which is not something which happens with any degree of regularity.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 July 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

Why shouldn't New players drop against the Lords? Seriously. When I first came to this game I wanted to fight against every single member (barring corp mates) I still do? I don't care if they are lightyears out of my present league, You don't get better by facing the status quo.

agreed. give this guy some likes.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 13 July 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

Roland, on 13 July 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Which is not something which happens with any degree of regularity.

Which, if was so, I wasn't going to start this topic at all.
Happens about 7/8 of every 10 games I deciede to group up with a single person, at least this far.

[Adiuvo]

Voidcrafter, on 13 July 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Which, if was so, I wasn't going to start this topic at all.
Happens about 7/8 of every 10 games I deciede to group up with a single person, at least this far.

Honestly I doubt that. Why would the matchmaker pick you out from everyone else to drop you against bigger groups while you consistently get the smaller ones? It wouldn't.

In general I don't trust people's feelings towards the size of the group on the enemy team. People still complained about getting stomped by groups in the solo queue, and it's since been confirmed that since the MM patch solo queue has literally been a solo only queue.

[Roland]

Voidcrafter, on 13 July 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Which, if was so, I wasn't going to start this topic at all.
Happens about 7/8 of every 10 games I deciede to group up with a single person, at least this far.

No, it doesn't happen with anywhere close to that regularity. You are wrong.

[Spawnsalot]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 July 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

Why shouldn't New players drop against the Lords? Seriously. When I first came to this game I wanted to fight against every single member (barring corp mates) I still do? I don't care if they are lightyears out of my present league, You don't get better by facing the status quo.

While I don't think most people are against a challenge, what you are advocating would be akin to arriving at boot camp at the beginning of your oft-mentioned military career (apologies, I can't recall if you said you were Army or Marines) being given a rifle and some ammunition on day 1 with no instruction on proper use and packed of to a warzone on day 2 and thrown straight into a firefight with your commanding officer just yelling "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome!" at you.

In that situation, as much as you like going up against bigger, badder opponents you probably aren't walking out of there in one piece because if the superior force doesn't demolish you in short order they guy next to you has probably just thrown the pin from his grenade at the enemy.


The point being, new player retention depends on not having Adiuvo and friends (and similarly skilled players) mashing newbies repeatedly during their cadet matches - it tends to put a downer on any intentions of replaying and/or spending cash on MC.
Yes. You get better by playing better opponents but being trashed in 60 seconds doesn't give much material to reflect on.


Getting back on track with the topic:
Apologies Voidcrafter but what you're experiencing is what happens when you can't communicate with more people on your team than your opponents can (which is what solo players used to have to deal with, hence the venom in some posters here). If you put groups back into the solo queue, 3 good players can still trash 12 - 3 Dragonslayers/Timberwolfs(-wolves?) /Highlanders etc.

This is basically a big sign saying "We still need in-game VOIP." so groups of all sizes can co-ordinate between each other. Don't despair though, PGI have got it on the drawing board now so it should be with us by Christmas next year. Hang in there man!

[Suko]

I'm not saying the MM is broken, but here's my experience.

I played until 1 week after Clan launch. (3 weeks ago?) I was doing fine then. Winning about 60% of my games and the ones we lost were still close matches. However, I took a 3 week break and come back and have the same impressions as the OP. Out of the 15 matches I've played yesterday and today, I've won 2 (maybe 3?). Most of the times we lose, it's <5 to 12.

This could be a lot of factors, but all I know is that my damage is fine and my match score and damage are usually at the top of my team. I don't feel my play style is much different either. All I know is that my team seems to get roflstomped way more than it did 3+ weeks ago.