58 replies to this topic

[Heisenbug]

Let me start here: I can only speak to my experience. I have a job, a kid, and friends, so my play time is sporadic and unpredictable. Which means I pretty much pug exclusively.

(...and forgive me, but I don't have time to check the forums very often. That takes away from game time...)

That said, I've played several thousand pug matches. They're not as bad as you'd think; speak up, be polite, and usually folks are willing to cooperate. Often you can even get your team to employ strategy. Or, you used to...

Until the clan invasion.

The change in pugs didn't happen immediately, but there's been a steady shift since the clan mechs showed up. I don't want to get into a debate about whether the clan mechs are OP (they are) or whether that's in line with cannon (it is). (...and who gives a crap about cannon? make a RP server for the cannon devotees...) If there was a context for IS vs. Clan, that might make sense, but given that the game is strictly PvP, the clan mechs have changed the balance and as such the nature of the game.

A few points:

- The offense vs. defense ratio (damage output vs. armor and speed) before the clan encouraged cooperation. Now, the overwhelming firepower of the clan mechs have overturned that dynamic. Pug-wise, it's become more of a strait shooter than a cooperative strategy game. Increasingly people are just rushing into combat.

- The current state of the game is discurraging new players. Nevermind aiming and piloting skills, there's a learning curve to tactics. It took me a hundred matches to realize that it wasn't about my skills, it was about how I employed them. But now the noobs stuck in IS mechs are getting vaporized so quickly that they're not learning anything. Then they get frustrated and they stop playing.

- There used to be a lot of zero$ players. While this might not have helped Piranha much, it did contribute to a richer player base. But the clan mechs are increasingly discuraging anyone stuck in an IS mech from playing. Now it seems, more and more, that matches are limiting to the pay players (ie, clan mechs). Generally speaking, if you don't want to spend the money, it's time to move on to another game.

- Aside from the money, what's the point of playing an IS mech? And if noone's gonna play IS mechs, why did they spend ALL THAT TIME making new IS mechs when they could have been making new maps?

- Outside of trying to rake in as much cash as they can, none of this makes sense to me. And the cash grab is a short term deal as it's shrinking the player base. It'll result in diminishing returns. (Is Steve Ballmer running Piranha now?)

...ok, rant over. Thanks for reading. Troll away.

[Mcgral18]

I think you have the trolling done with already.

Banshees are nice groundridden assault mechs. 95 tons, slightly less armour than a Dire Whale yet much faster and agile.

8 hardpoints on two variants, 10 on the third. I'm confident in taking on any Clan mech with that mech, in various loadouts.


IS lights outclass every current Clan light, most 55 tonners are still competitive against the Clan meds. Much better hitboxes and solid short range firepower.

Timberwolf seems to be a pretty good mech. Light on pod space, but big engine and pretty darn good hitboxes.

Assaults...well, you have the warhawk and the Dire Whale. I'm not too sure on the warhawk. I've heard it been called a worse stalker, but I've never used either of them.
Dire Whale, as the name implies, is slow as heck. As a reward, it can mount 50.5 tons of weapons. 50.5 tons of weapons is a lot. Mediocre hitboxes and poor agility limit its ability, unless you position yourself in front of it and stop twisting.

Edited by Mcgral18, 17 July 2014 - 11:28 PM.

[DAYLEET]

I bought a highlander 732 tonight, so whats the point of IS mech? well i guess you have to enjoy the game first. Yes i own all the clan mech.

[Draykin]

IS Mechs and Clan Mechs are only different in that they play differently. They are actually fairly balanced, and people mostly need to learn that there is a difference between fighting an IS Mech and fighting a Clan Mech.

1. The Clans are all about the guns. It's just how they are. Why? Omnimechs. They have locked internals, so they can't change engine ratings, and are stuck with ES and FF upgrades if they have them, and are stuck without them if they don't. What they CAN change is the separate components to get the hardpoints of other configurations of the same chassis. They get to play around with their guns a lot more, but they also get punished for it in the form of excessive heat, and needing to manage said heat. It's just how Omnimechs work.

2. The current game discourages new players due to a lack of a proper introduction/tutorial. To my knowledge, PGI is working on that. It doesn't really have much to do with the Invasion.

3. After some time, all Clan Mechs will be available for C-Bill purchase. They will be expensive in terms of C-Bills, but it's still C-Bills. All people paid for was early access and some cosmetics. (Warhorns are, in fact, cosmetic.) IS Mechs are still completely viable, and I often find my own Clan Mechs destroyed by the effort of some Raven, Jagermech, Atlas, etc.

4. The point of playing an IS Mech varies entirely on the player. Some people might play an IS Mech because they hate the "P2W" Clans. Some might play IS Mechs because they like IS Mechs (I personally <3 my Atlai). Some might play IS Mechs because they dedicate themselves to a certain faction. Some might play an IS Mech for full customization, and being able to swap out engines for whatever they wish.

5. The Invasion, as much as you might see it as a cash grab, is not a cash grab. The Clan Invasion is actually a huge event in the history of MWO, where the first ever Omnimechs and Clan Mechs were introduced into the game. It created a drastic change in how the game was played, and opened up whole new cans of worms while also giving people new hope in the idea of CW due to having new factions. Also, if anything, the Clan Invasion increased the community size due to the introduction of the ever-so-loved Timber Wolf.

In short, the Clan Mechs have changed some things.. But they've changed them for the better, and people just need to learn and adapt.

[Clownwarlord]

OK I have masterd 12 Inner Sphere mechs before the clan mechs have come out. So I like to think I have a good understanding of the abilities of the Inner Sphere mechs.

So far though I have mastered the Kit Fox, a very light armoured, ecm capable, and slow mech for its class (speeds of a average medium mech). Nothing exceptional about it except 3 ams and ecm which means negating the lrm spam. Which everyone is looking for. If you don't have this mech the module that breaks lock when you are out of sight is just as good as the ams cloud which can be taken on ANY IS or Clan mech.

The Adder was a little more difficult because the Prime came out with ERPPC so sniping but it is a light mech which means stop moving and you die. It also is slow compared to IS light mechs. About the same armour as a Firestarter and weapons are difficult to use because you get only 4 points where as a firestarter has up to 8 on average. So Adder is also a good use as a lrm boat but then again it is a light so lack of ammo (maybe 1,000 missiles and two launchers with 2 medium ers).

Nova, now this mech I like it. It wasn't fast, it had weapon slots open to some options (mostly very hot builds) and had jump jets. Out side of that a Wolverine or Griffon is better at 5 tons more, other wise its only plus over IS was that for 50 tons it has JJs ... wait but so does the 45 ton BJ so again IS can do anything Clan can do.

Stormcrow - It is probably the best 55 ton mech with out Jump Jets. Out side of that if you take any IS mech with Jump Jets you can do basically what the Stormcrow can do. Kintaro - missile spam just like Stormcrow, Griffon - missile spam and JJ, Wolverine - JJ and laser spam ... even a balistic on on like the Stormcrow can. So IS has similar options just like the Stormcrow.

As for the others I have not played yet but what I have seen is:

Summnor ... Thunderbolt just skinnier.

Timber Wolf - this is the only mech I have noted that is above its counter parts. Good hit boxes like many other IS heavy, better weapon load outs then IS, maneuverable if not more so then the other 75 ton heavies, and lastly all around best mech in the game. (Mind you my opinion with out playing so put what you will on it.)

Warhawk - same tonnage as Battlemaster and Stalker ... similar to the load outs as those as well ... nothign exceptional just another 85 ton assault from what I can see. Makes a good lrm boat, but so does the Stalkers and Battlemasters right?

Dire Whale (Wolf) - 100 tons ... what can you compare to? 100 ton Atlas? Not really. Atlas has better speed options ... DDC has ECM. In truth the Dire wolf is a very slow moving and turning weapons platform. Atlas is a marching force to be reckoned with. That is my opinion though, but like stated earlier DDC still best 100 ton mech in game, why? ECM. Actually what was said to me by some one who has played the Dire Whale is best combo is Dire Whale and DDC combined as a fire team.

Now what is OP then? the weapons ... maybe. In truth it depends on your ability to handle the heat and if you can do that competently then you are fine with Clan Weapons which could be considered OP.

A lot of my builds have been 2 ERPPC and managing the heat with a secondary weapon (MGs, small lasers, or small streak packs). Outside of that the build would over heat and I would die before doing about 400 damage and 1 kill a match (not bad means I get a kill and help out in some others usually 3 to 5 more Kill Assists).

[Kiiyor]

I'm liking watching the new meta emerge.

I've started noticing that Clan heavy teams do a lot more maneuvering than IS teams, as they need to get into decent fire positions to make best use of their weapons. I'm noticing also that if IS heavy sides stick to fluid defence, they are a very, very tough nut to crack. Sure, a DireWhale can waddle around a corner and unleash some hideous damage, but if team defence is tight enough, it will wither.

Also, clan LRM's suck when a target has cover available. IS LRM's drop a nice fat dollop of missiles in one go, and seem to drop more effective damage when battles have stagnated into whack-a-mole.

Things change, and i'm noticing that a lot of the IS pilots that whine in chat after dying are stubbornly clinging to now obsolete tactics. IS DPS mechs, while barely viable before, are borderline useless now (which sucks). Load for bear, fire, cower, repeat, and you're set.... and don't pilot IS mediums unless you're very confident in your skills and build

[Rando Slim]

I dunno, sometimes I see what the OP is talking about, after all its pretty hard to deny time to kill has been reduced a smidgeon. And aggressive teams do well when everyone is on board and poorly when they do it piecemeal. But that has always been the case. It really depends on the team composition of course but what I see is an increase in average engagement range and a hell of a lot more fear and standing around and static play precisely because you can die so fast now with all the missile spam and bloody timberwolves running around. It might be an ELO bracket or a solo vs groups thing, I pretty much always play in groups so your mileage apparently varies.

You know whats even scarier? Timberwolves haven't come out for c-bills yet......when that happens......may the Flying Spaghetti Monster watch over you.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 18 July 2014 - 12:17 AM.

[Thunder Lips Express]

i own all of the clans and i own every chassis of IS mechs, not every variant but at least 3 of each to master..i would be hard pressed to find a clan mech that i prefer over an IS mech. sure there are stinker IS mechs but there is also much more of them and some just don't fit my play style. i think that the only clan mech i would pick over an IS is the stormcrow, i absolutely love that mech, for lights heavies and assaults i prefer IS. but thats just me and i'm not special

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mcgral18, on 17 July 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

Timberwolf seems to be a pretty good mech. Light on pod space, but big engine and pretty darn good hitboxes.

Assaults...well, you have the warhawk and the Dire Whale. I'm not too sure on the warhawk. I've heard it been called a worse stalker, but I've never used either of them.
Dire Whale, as the name implies, is slow as heck. As a reward, it can mount 50.5 tons of weapons. 50.5 tons of weapons is a lot. Mediocre hitboxes and poor agility limit its ability, unless you position yourself in front of it and stop twisting.

Timberwolf is light on pod space, yet stock it carries 2 LL, 2 ML, 2 MG, 2 LRM20s, decent amount of ammo for it's guns, has a pretty good engine.....Try to make the same loadout on any IS Heavy, hell, make it on the Banshee or some heavier IS Assault....Its heat eff is ok...but on an IS mech, the same loadout would be atrocious heat eff.

Warhawk, ive done like 50 games in it, I lag to much to really do real well, but it is a fine mech. It's largely an energy based mech, kinda like an improved Awesome? I like it. Fairly agile, good weapon loads, good armor. Its nice.

[BOWMANGR]

As I wrote in other balance threads, if you believe that the Timber Wolf and Clan weapons are not overpowered, when they get c-bill available you are going to have a really bad time...

[Kiiyor]

Ecliptor, on 18 July 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

i own all of the clans and i own every chassis of IS mechs, not every variant but at least 3 of each to master..i would be hard pressed to find a clan mech that i prefer over an IS mech. sure there are stinker IS mechs but there is also much more of them and some just don't fit my play style. i think that the only clan mech i would pick over an IS is the stormcrow, i absolutely love that mech, for lights heavies and assaults i prefer IS. but thats just me and i'm not special

God I love the StormCrow. I love medium mechs, and was disheartened after my once glorious hunchbacks became mutant lumps of rusted-bullet-attracting play-doh. The Griff and the Shawk scratched the itch for a while, but there's nothing quite like the exhileration of piloting the Crow. Great everything, but you can still be knocked out in one punch if you're not constantly aware of what's happening on the field. It's close to perfection for a Medium, and I sincerely hope PGI never try to view it through the nerf goggles.

Other than that, I still prefer to destroy in my Jenners, and I still love my YagerBombs.

[Lupin]

Well I have seen a change in game play which seems to have players relying on weapons more then tactics.
e.g. more conquest games now result in killing one side not capture.

IS mechs need more skill and tactics to over come Clan mechs is my opinion.

[Ursh]

I solo drop a lot, and I've seen the solo games use way more flanking than they used to. People finally seem wary of the frontal assault, and are beginning to understand that moving around to the side is almost always the better choice. Before the clans, people would pick some spot and camp it until long after it was a viable or useful position.

One of the big differences that long-time solo players are faced with is that they got so used to playing peekaboo that they're a bit flustered with mediums and heavies that are fast enough to reliably flank them and catch them in the open. In my Stormcrow it's quite fun to swing wide and come back in to shoot Shawks, Jaegers, and Cataphracts in the back or sides right as they're settling in to their favorite peekaboo positions.

[Carrion Hound]

Give it until they are all C-bill available, then stuff will change -again- the QQ will transfer over to something else to whine about.


Less whine over clan mechs, more whine over map hitboxes.

[Petard]

SERIOUSLY?...Liking your own post, OP?...That's pretty lame, mate....

[Bobby Blast]

Heisenbug, on 17 July 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

I don't want to get into a debate about whether the clan mechs are OP (they are)

You do or you wouldn't have expressed your opinion in your *objective* journalistic piece...

Heisenbug, on 17 July 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

or whether that's in line with cannon (it is). (...and who gives a crap about cannon? make a RP server for the cannon devotees...)

A cannon is an artillery piece, a canon is what is in a book. You can't make *A* server when the MM is a catchall.

Heisenbug, on 17 July 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

But now the noobs stuck in IS mechs are getting vaporized so quickly that they're not learning anything. Then they get frustrated and they stop playing.

The noobs are getting vaporized because EVERY SINGLE TRIAL MECH IS TOTAL CRAP.

Heisenbug, on 17 July 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

- There used to be a lot of zero$ players. While this might not have helped Piranha much, it did contribute to a richer player base. But the clan mechs are increasingly discuraging anyone stuck in an IS mech from playing. Now it seems, more and more, that matches are limiting to the pay players (ie, clan mechs). Generally speaking, if you don't want to spend the money, it's time to move on to another game.

Clan mechs will be available for cbills released on a schedule as noted many times on these forums.

Heisenbug, on 17 July 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

- Aside from the money, what's the point of playing an IS mech? And if noone's gonna play IS mechs, why did they spend ALL THAT TIME making new IS mechs when they could have been making new maps?

For the love of God it's "no one" not "noone" and I still play every single IS mech because they are still awesome.

[Willard Phule]

....as the thread devolves around which Clan Omni is the best or what the best weapons to use are......

All without addressing the BIGGEST problem with the PUG queue. A COMPLETE LACK OF SEPARATION BY SKILL OR EXPERIENCE.

Why do new players get discouraged quickly here? Why are there so many 12-0 roflstomps in the PUG?

I was gone for 6 days....SIX DAYS....and missed the patch. Now that I'm back, I've noticed that the PUG queue is actually worse than it was before the patch....at least inasfar as new players being put into matches with experienced ones.

I just had someone that I've seen playing for a while explaining that PGI removed the whole Elo thing from the matchmaker. I don't know if it's true or not, but damn....it sure feels like it.

That tells me one thing....those of us that aren't in groups simply DO NOT MATTER to them. The way I see it, if PGI doesn't care and puts the mouthbreathing, drooling idiots in with everyone else....I should feel free to turn and retaliate against teammates that shoot me with IMPUNITY. The PUG queue is all about cbills now....and teamkills are only a 10k deduction.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Willard Phule, on 18 July 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

....as the thread devolves around which Clan Omni is the best or what the best weapons to use are......

All without addressing the BIGGEST problem with the PUG queue. A COMPLETE LACK OF SEPARATION BY SKILL OR EXPERIENCE.

Why do new players get discouraged quickly here? Why are there so many 12-0 roflstomps in the PUG?

I was gone for 6 days....SIX DAYS....and missed the patch. Now that I'm back, I've noticed that the PUG queue is actually worse than it was before the patch....at least inasfar as new players being put into matches with experienced ones.

I just had someone that I've seen playing for a while explaining that PGI removed the whole Elo thing from the matchmaker. I don't know if it's true or not, but damn....it sure feels like it.

That tells me one thing....those of us that aren't in groups simply DO NOT MATTER to them. The way I see it, if PGI doesn't care and puts the mouthbreathing, drooling idiots in with everyone else....I should feel free to turn and retaliate against teammates that shoot me with IMPUNITY. The PUG queue is all about cbills now....and teamkills are only a 10k deduction.

And for me the PUGs are better than ever. Battles are very close with very few PUG Stomps. Sure there are a few but maybe 1 in 10-15 are battles where one side or the other completely dominates. Also been seeing alot more maneuver battles rather than stagnant lumps in the middle of the map. Also finally starting to see the main fights taking place in random areas of the battlefield, places that have never seen a mech prior to Clan, let alone had a battle fought there.

All-in-all a vast improvement aside from the stupid JJ nerf which is starting to work to counter the more exciting maneuver battles that were starting to become more commonplace.

[POWR]

As someone who primarily pugs, I have to disagree with OP. I have not noticed much difference now compared to when I last played actively about 4 months ago.

[wanderer]

The PUG queue has changed simply because many of the players that have gotten good moved out now that they can play in more flexible group sizes, leaving you with a higher concentration of randoms, the blissfully ignorant, and the Rambo Bads.

Here's a hint: The bads don't understand teamwork or end up in groups, so if you solo, the sheer concentration of them in solo queue will guarantee finding them. They're the same bads as before, but no longer have premades to potentially carry or shield them. And the randomness of said packs of PUGs slapping against each other like bull seals during mating season means ELO adjustments are slow,slow, and often thwarted by a random win propping up their ratings, leaving the sea of mediocrity close enough to lap at the feet (and end up on the team) of better players, especially since "newbie" = mid-ELO, well within reach of having someone who hasn't finished their cadet bonus sitting in the same lance as the veteran.