174 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

StaggerCheck, on 15 July 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

I'm not sure, but I think your numbers are either off a bit, or you didn't have a clear vision of what you were trying to accomplish with these changes.

Paul.

[TexAce]

This together with the fall damage is just a nerf to every non-assault mech in this game AND EVERY BRAWLER LIKE ME!

I feel like being in a damn conspiracy led by Paul. Who knows which sick plan he has in his mind but nobody likes it. I can imagine Paul sitting in his office and whispering with a Gollum voice "we need to sell more poptarting assault heroes!!"...

It's a nerf on all sides, there is absolutely NOTHING positive that can be taken out of this last two "balance adjustments" being JJs and fall damage.

No fun -> no players -> buh-bye MWO.

Edited by TexAss, 15 July 2014 - 03:38 PM.

[Zolaz]

So JJs have no heat and cant be used to scale terrain any more? Was this tested through Quality Control?

[Sjef]

Leigus, on 15 July 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

I don't feel like this jump jet nerf was very well implemented. To echo many above, Assaults don't seem to have lost effectiveness from this nerf nearly as much as Lights and Mediums. I feel like the original Max Jump Height values were good, and that abuse was as a result of players getting too much thrust for too few jump jets.With that in mind, why not hold the original Max Height as an anchor point, and increase the slope of Height / Jump Jet? This results in 1-2 Jump Jets being minimally effective, while max jump jets perform same as always.(This graph is meant to pertain to the Spider 5V, using 8 as the Anchor Point because "8" is the stock number of Jets and has a set, known value).If you force players to choose between that extra tonnage, and a decent jump height I feel there would be a much more positive alteration in balance. As it is, my Victor feels the same with 2 JJs as it does with 4, I just overall can't jump as high as I used to.

Incorect the heavy are also affected with this Bad patch and cant fly proper like in the past.

Now we want the old Jump jets Back ore we will spend no $ anymore on this game.
I wand also mony back i buy a mech that can fly 22 meter and it does not anymore.
Go doing somting use full. Bug fixing ore make a new level instad *******!!! whit our jump jets
If we cant fly we will play MWF 3 ore something els!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please undo the chance fore the ''CATAPHRACT CTF-3D'' first

Edited by Sjef, 15 July 2014 - 03:50 PM.

[Fiona Marshe]

That Class 2 JJ thrust looks like a bug that made it through QA.

It should be around 37, based on the curve for the other four types.

[JimboFBX]

My shadow hawk with 0.5 tons of jump jets has the same vertical thrust as my highlander with stock (6 tons) of jump jets.

After going through all my mechs, my conclusion is that it's mostly ok, a little slow, but the highlander definitely needs to be fixed to something reasonable. When we pay large amounts of c-bills for an XL engine then can only sell it for 50% value it limits what's a competitive load out and by forcing me to add a few tons of jump jets often times the only logical way to do that is to downgrade engine size, which is very expensive.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mister D, on 15 July 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Smart things like convergence, crosshair drift when jumping, impulse/recoil from heavy weapons causing problems mid-flight, or even fixing the twitchy animations when jumping that seem to just keep going right over your heads.

Working on convergence is a waste of effort IMO. The first issue is that the mechs with one side loaded weapons will still be more accurate. The second issue is that current would still favor front loaded weapons it would just take longer to kill. A better solution is to reduce beam duration and buff every mech's armor capacity value. Oh and get rid of this terrible hill climb mechanic. These are easier solutions PGI could implement next patch if it decided to. Without diverting resources from other areas of development and without increasing prevalence of random chance.

This last nerf did affect the timberwolf quite a bit as the traditional PPC+Gauss timberwolf is essentially dead(or at least severely affected). This hasn't done much to affect the Dragon Slayer CTF-3D or the Summoner. Please stop this is seriously affecting lights more. Both fall damage and this have affected non jump snipers much more than jump snipers. Please try to fix terrain movement. If you actually play in a brawler comp you will realize that almost every mech needs jump jets in the comp to avoid getting stuck on terrain.
Edited because i wrote ammo instead of armor herp derp

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 15 July 2014 - 04:32 PM.

[L3GR0DANCER]

Absolutely flipping terrible. Huge nerf to fun. You already nerfed the christ out of my highlander before, now it's just laughable. My SHD and GRF builds feel like they had their balls cut off with a rusty hacksaw, even with max jj, and meanwhile the poptart meta is as bad as it ever was. Why don't you clowns just remove lights and mediums from the game entirely, if you're going to keep backdoor nerfing them. Or better yet, remove all mechs from the game, except the VTR DS, so there can be no illusions as to what MWO is about.

How this patch got out the door in its current state is beyond me. I lack the words to describe the consistent and mind-boggling level of fail demonstrated by the devs of this game.

Seriously PGI, just sell the IP rights to battletech to a company that isnt run by mongoloids and charlatans. kthxbai.

Edited by L3GR0DANCER, 15 July 2014 - 05:19 PM.

[The Flaxen Yeti]

So I own 76 mechs, 10 Hero mechs, and I love jumping. I do however hate Pop Tarts, so I agree it needed attention.

I own a couple Hero mechs like the Jester and Huggin that have a low maximum JJ count and there isn't squat I can do about that. During the patch testing, I got on and encountered this "scaling" to thrust and said hey guys this is gonna nerf the crap out of mechs with low JJ count. At first they said I was dreaming but later I got told the implementation was a mistake, and the numbers were still being played with.

Well damn... They are pretty damn close to what I experienced in testing, and honestly, it feels like a big F U from the devs.

These mechs were designed with a low JJ count, and cost cash to acquire. So it hardly seems right to make that part of their design useless. The Jester on a full burn doesn't have to worry about fall damage, because it doesn't actually leave the ground, it just glows and skids around on its toes. I seriously get maybe a few feet off the ground. I used to be able to clear a mech, or a low building which was a life saver in urban settings. Now the thing is basically good for dusting the ground, or making a sharp turn, and honestly with a pults twist... who needs that?

The Huggin, jeez... it's only saving grace was JJ's and MG's. You just clipped it's wings. It went from Raven to Road Runner. It still gets off the ground at least, but it does it so damn slow, that you get torn to pieces trying to scramble your way up. Forget it. Huggin JJ's are now mostly for walking off cliffs. Before I would be able to just bounce around back and forth right on top of people and just spray them in the face with MG's. Pretty much annoy the crap out of them, streak, SRM 6, I mean the damn thing is stock.

If you perhaps looked at your nerf as ratio of JJ's to maximum available, then stiffen the heat penalty, cause honestly I didn't notice the heat, but again, I'm not a pop tarter. I mean I would imagine this would make sense right? If you have the potential to mount 4 JJ's, but only put 2 you would have 50% lift capacity, and maybe even 50% burn duration. You put only 1, and you get 25% of each... 3 and you have 75% 4 of 4 nets you 100% of the mechs maximum Jump capacity whatever that works out to, for simplicity say 40 meters.

Now keep in mind that scale isn't 40, 30, 20, 10. Because you lost both thrust and duration with each missing JJ.

At least this way, you nerf people who drop JJ's intentionally, and not those low JJ caps. Mechs that only have 3 JJ's or so seem to be hit pretty hard while those with 4 feel fine. My 80 Ton Victor outjumps my shadowhawk and that just doesn't feel right to me...

Edited by Larcen Dredi, 15 July 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[Ecrof]

Mediums need a jj height boost.

[Past]

So way way back there was a patch where jump jets got made pretty useless and boring and everyone complained then they got fixed again. Is it pretty much like that again now if anyone's round that remembers that and has tried them out? I'm stuck at work and curious as to if its back like that patch ages ago that really sucked.

[AC]

You made one of your HERO mechs worthless. I grabbed my Jester and was trying to use the JJ to get over a small bump and it couldn't. Heck! I went into 3pv and watch myself JJ to the max and the mech was still walking on the ground.

You didn't need to make JJ that worthless on larger mechs. You already scaled how much they weigh so heavies and assaults are paying a lot of tonnage for the mobility...except they are not getting the mobility. My Victor (which can only run 4jj) wasn't even able to get off the ground far enough to damage its legs on the drop... or prevent damage while going off a small hill.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?!??!

[Cabal LV426]

Dear Developers, instead of do difference between 1 and max heatsinks you also lowered vertical boost by 25% and did jumpjets (JJ) not useful to jump over surface of maps. Summoner, which have 5 JJ of III class (5 t, fixed) now can't jump on low hills, houses, towers, buildings. It's lost half of it's mobile functions. At the same time it lose 5 critical slots and 5 tons for new nerfed JJ, which already can’t effort moving advantage to him.

I think you need backward the vertical boost and see how heat cooling effect on jump snipers.
If it not have result do JJ fixed on maximum quantity. For example: fix JJ for Victor on 5. So, it lose 5 tons and 5 critical slots. In result it will have lower heat dissipation, lower ammo. More balanced. Or do the choice, 0 JJ or Max. This resolve the problem.

Edited by Cabal LV426, 15 July 2014 - 09:12 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

Frankly this was a bad implementation of a bad idea.

I've said it before but you need to go the other way with jumpjets.

300-400% more thrust

but only 1/3rd or a 1/4th of the duration.

So they become more like "JUMP' jets instead of good year blimps.

Jump sniping would be extremely difficult and those people that use jumpjets to navigate and for mobility would be rewarded.

[Cabal LV426]

Dear Developers, instead of do difference between 1 and max heatsinks you also lowered vertical boost by 25% and did jumpjets (JJ) not useful to jump over surface of maps. Summoner, which have 5 JJ of III class (5 t, fixed) now can't jump on low hills, houses, towers, buildings. It's lost half of it's mobile functions. At the same time it lose 5 critical slots and 5 tons for new nerfed JJ, which already can’t effort moving advantage to him.

I think you need backward the vertical boost and see how heat cooling effect on jump snipers.
If it not have result do JJ fixed on maximum quantity. For example: fix JJ for Victor on 5. So, it lose 5 tons and 5 critical slots. In result it will have lower heat dissipation, lower ammo. More balanced. Or do the choice, 0 JJ or Max. This resolve the problem.

[Cabal LV426]

Why JJ class III and class IV now have tha same vertical boost=45? But with same vertical boost JJ class III weight twice more?
JJ class III vertical boost 45, weight=1 t
JJ class IV vertical boost 45, weight=0.5 t

[Cyborne Elemental]

Convergence can work.

It just needs a good approach, and all these nerfs to thrust can go back to where they were and make the game fun again.

For convergence to work, it can be very similar to how LRM locks are currently.

First step is to get rid of autofocus when aiming at the ground or any distant point without a target.

Locking onto a target is what needs to give you a base level of accuracy for ranges.

Only once your target is within a certain FOV based on range, then your weapon hardpoints start to come together slowly, the smaller the FOV cone should be the farther away your target is.

Just like how your Locking reticule on LRM's work, you keep your crosshair within a certain distance of your target and you start to gain a lock, drift off target and you start to lose tracking.

A system for convergence can work with a very similar setup, most of the code is already right there in the way LRM's work.

It will just need some refinement, and planning to make it a reality.

Edited by Mister D, 16 July 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Ryvucz]

Jumpjets feel... wrong.

Messing around in my Timber Wolf, I have four jumpjets, okay I know thrust was changed, but there is no increase in height capability by adding one extra jumpjet OR removing two jumpjets.

Overall they seem more of wasted weight and space.

Even before the changes they were iffy on jumping. Unless you do a vertical jump without regards to trying to get on top of something, but just to peek over to shoot, the change has missed it completely.

I'm not sure how to go about addressing the jumpjet issue, but I feel this isn't a good way to go about it.

TL;DR

Feels wrong, and no I do not have a good suggestion.

- EDIT

My Spider with 12 jumpjets (5V) hits 104 height? I can effectively FLY with that thing. Who cares about the rough landing.

Weird adjustments, not pleasing. You can jump snipe in a 5V over an Alpine Peak.



You know I love you guys, but come on.

Edited by Ryvucz, 15 July 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Cabal LV426, on 15 July 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Dear Developers, instead of do difference between 1 and max heatsinks you also lowered vertical boost by 25% and did jumpjets (JJ) not useful to jump over surface of maps. Summoner, which have 5 JJ of III class (5 t, fixed) now can't jump on low hills, houses, towers, buildings. It's lost half of it's mobile functions. At the same time it lose 5 critical slots and 5 tons for new nerfed JJ, which already can’t effort moving advantage to him.

I think you need backward the vertical boost and see how heat cooling effect on jump snipers.
If it not have result do JJ fixed on maximum quantity. For example: fix JJ for Victor on 5. So, it lose 5 tons and 5 critical slots. In result it will have lower heat dissipation, lower ammo. More balanced. Or do the choice, 0 JJ or Max. This resolve the problem.

Victors can still mount CLASS II Jump Jest with 68.00 vertical boost. Just sell your Summoner and buy that Dragon Slayer already! Obviously Paul wants you to do so.

I have a crazy idea: double the vertical boost, increase the horizontal boost, lower the "fuel" amount and add crosshair shake for the whole duration of the jump. That would fix poptarting while making JJ fun & usable to scale terrain.

Edited by Kmieciu, 15 July 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[Vanguard319]

I honestly don't think PGI knows what their doing as far as jumpjets go, A Summoner has a jump distance of 150m, not 22.5. Every JJ is supposed to add 30m to your jump distance. As things are now, their thrust is so anemic that they wind up not being any use at all. They're trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore, but this isn't going to please anyone.