174 replies to this topic

[Myrkky]

Hey guys,

Just thinking you forgot something....
Nerf king of poptarts, Dragon Slayer.

I know that killing dragons without ability to fly is hard but...

Why in hell Assault Mech jumps better than LIGHT MECH!?!

Thanks for Siriothrax who figured that out.

http://imgur.com/a/IYSX0

Oh well... hot fix, just maybe?

Best regards
Myrkky

[MountainCopper]

I was surprised at the sudden development, that "Jump jets are for maneuvering only, and we will therefore lower the thrust they provide across the board."

With fall damage and JJ heat, the perceived reduced thrust you now get out of them seems to be too much. With a 5 JJ Jenner, you can barely jump over an Atlas...
And with 3 JJ in that Jenner or a Shadowhawk, it's a sad performance. I don't get the sudden turnaround.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 15 July 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

• Heat increases on a linear scale with each additional Jump-Jet.

Linear seems fine, but the heat generated could be higher. I mean, even with all 5 JJ in a Jenner and 13 DHS on Tourmaline you will slightly cool down.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 15 July 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

• Thrust increases on a linear scale with each additional Jump-Jet.

I don't like a linear function here. There's seems almost no difference ingame between 3 and 5 JJ.
So, players are going to take 2 or 3 at maximum and forget about being able to fly high for a short time with a full complement of JJ.


I don't like a linear function here. As I understand it, that's the way it is in TT, but a reward/punishment system would be better here imo.

Let's look at Shadowhawks. We have variants which can mount 3 JJ and some that can mount 5.
So, if 3 JJ would be, for instance, the 100% thrust benchmark, 4 JJ could give 133% and 5 JJ 175%.

In the same way, taking only 1 or 2 JJ shouldn't give 33% and 66% respectively, but 30% and 55%.

Edited by GoldenFleece, 18 July 2014 - 12:34 AM.

[Blue Shadow]

The JJ changes are not perfect but they are not that bad, (I was preparing for something worse after reading this thread) After giving it a try with all my JJ mechs I found that the lift is pathetic when going full speed, this is the issue that needs to be fixed ASAP for mechs that brawl and most importantly light mechs. However lift worked much better at very slow speeds and standing still.

The good thing is it seems to help force the need for more JJs, BUT adjustments are needed! Lift should improve with speed thanks to forward momentum so light/medium mechs keep their agility, however it should take more thrust to lift a mech that's standing still, putting more pressure on poptarts to use more JJs and so increasing the compromise they have to make for the advantage of that tactic.

[TexAce]

Did someone DFA'd Paul in a game or something? I can't think of any other reason why he is doing his frustrated-boy move like after the Goons played ball with him and let PGI remove collisions...

[Gallowglas]

After some pretty extensive testing last night, I can pretty conclusively say that the new implementation is problematic. I think the idea of making the ascent slower and freezing weapon cooldowns is well-conceived. What is NOT working is the jump height. Unless you're running massive numbers of JJ's, you're not even really able to do much navigating, which is what you're trying to isolate JJ usage to with these changes. With 3 JJ's on a Cataphract, I was barely able to get on top of the lowest buildings on Frozen City. Getting on top of the ridges on Canyon was out of the question without multiple jumps. Right now JJ's just seem like complete dead weight on anything except light mechs.

My assessment: keep slower ascent times (maybe not as slow as current, but slower is fine), heat, and weapon cooldowns, but increase the JJ burn time so that mechs can still use them to actually navigate.

Edited by Gallowglas, 16 July 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[AgroAlba]

I like 'em. Had to change a few of my builds to add more jump jets, but that was expected.

[Shredhead]

Hit the nail on the head according to lift inertia and heat, but the height you can now gain is a sad joke. What exactly was the problem with getting high up with jump jets?
Why are builds with max capacity of 3 or 4 JJs punished?
Where is the problem with letting mechs gain a lot of height for navigational purposes? You even said you wanted jump jets to get used primarily for navigation. Well, that was a clear miss! I'd say double the amount of burn time, leave the rest as is.
At the moment a Highlander won't even be able to do the famous "Highlander Burial"!

[HekiDanjo]

I'm just curious what you are trying to solve? It seems that you've decided that some arbitrary notion of what should be is more important than a fun game with a variety of viable mech builds. The unintended consequence is that medium mechs have, to my mind become a lot less viable. Many are only slightly faster and smaller than heavy mechs, making them quite easy to hit but carry much less armament and armor. All of this while lacking the brute speed that makes lights survivable makes me question what role you see for the mediums now that their maneuverability has been reduced. I know the facile answer is to fit more jets but for a class of mechs that already needs to be tightly min/maxed to be effective, that's a cop out.

[Grendel408]

I'm actually happy with the new Jump Jet mechanic for MWO I still think the fall damage needs to be tuned a bit because Lights Mechs take a pounding even from the smallest of drops (walking off a dropship on Frozen City for example).

[Kibble]

Shlkt, on 16 July 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

Please explain this to me...
The Victor, which uses Class II jump jets, has better thrust per JJ and better initial jump velocity than any other mech in the game (check the raw data if you don't believe me, look for JumpJets_ClassII: http://static.mwomer.../list/full.json)

The biggest, baddest, most abusive pop-tarter in the game gets the best jump jets. It was the best in the previous patch, and it's still the best in the new patch (although not as good as it was). The balance seems rather inverted from what it should be.

Class   V: 1.1 m/s + 18.5J m/s^2 (lights)
Class  IV: 1.2 m/s + 22.5J m/s^2 (mediums)
Class III: 2.0 m/s + 22.5J m/s^2 (heavies)
Class  II: 2.0 m/s + 34.0J m/s^2 (victor)
Class   I: 1.5 m/s + 16.5J m/s^2 (highlander)

(Table shows initial jump velocity + acceleration per jump jet per second)

Is it because many of the competitive teams use Dragons Slayers and PGI wants new players to see them running it? Could it be to boost sales? Get those new hopeful greenhorns thoughts of fame and glory?

It's a marketing ploy. I know it.

Edited by Kibble, 16 July 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Cabbage Merchant]

A spider 5V can now jump 104 meters with full (12) jj's, I'm really loving it.

[JimboFBX]

Why is the formula hardcored rather than a formula based on thrust and weight?

[DAEDALOS513]

HekiDanjo, on 16 July 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I'm just curious what you are trying to solve? It seems that you've decided that some arbitrary notion of what should be is more important than a fun game with a variety of viable mech builds. The unintended consequence is that medium mechs have, to my mind become a lot less viable. Many are only slightly faster and smaller than heavy mechs, making them quite easy to hit but carry much less armament and armor. All of this while lacking the brute speed that makes lights survivable makes me question what role you see for the mediums now that their maneuverability has been reduced. I know the facile answer is to fit more jets but for a class of mechs that already needs to be tightly min/maxed to be effective, that's a cop out.

You are SO right. Medium mechs should NOT be this affected by the jet nerf. I have 4 jets in my Griff and it feels like I'm trying to lift an atlas off the ground. It's a MEDIUM and this doesn't make sense. Sure nerf the heavy's and assaults cuz they can do OP damage using tarting technique from hundreds of meters away, but what is a medium going to tart,,, A ppc and a medium laser? Now you're forcing us to choose full jet complement and mediocre weapons, or no jets for decent weapons. Mediums don't have the weight capacity for 7 jets.. and still keep them viable (or fun).

Come on.. this just killed the fun factor of the game, at least for mediums!

AgroAntirrhopus, on 16 July 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

I like 'em. Had to change a few of my builds to add more jump jets, but that was expected.

This comin from a 3pv fan.. pfft

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 16 July 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[FireDog]

My simple feedback is: You have made the game a lot less fun.

Furthermore you have greatly devalued mechs that I have purchased though time and money and basically diminished the chance and/or amount of future purchases I could have made.

All in all, your dimly conceived nerfs to mech piloting in general are pretty much a path to ill times ahead for your business model.

[Ancient Demise]

Can we please see the option to change the thrust vector either before matches or through a module or jump at a 45 degree angle by holding W and Space?

Can you please balance the thrust across all weights so that 1 jump jet lifts each mech the same amount, or scale it based on JJ class? The current numbers are all over the place for however you conceived your "balance" notions.

I need to update my own calculations but it is looking like the highlander could jump at least 100 feet forward instead of the 100 feet up.

[Livewyr]

Carrioncrows, on 15 July 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Frankly this was a bad implementation of a bad idea.

I've said it before but you need to go the other way with jumpjets.

300-400% more thrust

but only 1/3rd or a 1/4th of the duration.

So they become more like "JUMP' jets instead of good year blimps.

Jump sniping would be extremely difficult and those people that use jumpjets to navigate and for mobility would be rewarded.

crows and I agree on something.. so you know it must be bad.

[Livewyr]

Why was this not play-tested before hand?

[BARBAR0SSA]

Mister D, on 16 July 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ert-jj-changes/

Starting a Petition thread guys, voice your opinions there as well.

No the old JJ was garbage too.

Need do something and make it an actual JUMP like and large forward arc at 45 degrees with a lot of velocity, and increase the cool down drastically to reduce speed advantage. No more pop tarting, you can jump 180M forward like canon mechs and up a hill quite well, done.


Or have some fun: double the JJ height, half damage for lights, double the impact damage for heavies and assaults and let people have at it. Double recharge rate.

Edited by shad0w4life, 16 July 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Ansgar Odinson]

I would be willing to totally swallow my loss of mobility in my TW if this actually grounded pop snipers (which it hasn't). Either tweak the numbers to ground pop snipers or give me back my mobility. On a side note I am willing to have fall dmg ramped up even more in this game. It would be nice if people had to use the terrain rather than just steam rolling up, down and jumping right off it without a care in the world. People should dread having to no JJ off a steep cliff rather than causally leaping off what should be a crippling fall.

(if the just had fall and trip mechanics this whole over use of pop sniping would be solved) Imagine if every time you JJ there was a risk of tripping increased exponentially by landing on un-even ground. Also I love crows idea of making them a quick blast that propelled you in a forward arc rather than making you hover like a blimp.

Edited by Ansgar Odinson, 16 July 2014 - 03:50 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Figure out Convergence, and all this can go away.