181 replies to this topic

[SolasTau]

So... I'm new to MWO. I've been playing two weeks... and largely I have no real issues with the game outside of things that I remember being radically different from BattleTech. I used to run BattleTech games, so there's some differences between TT and MWO that kinda' grind my gears, but I always try to keep in mind that hey, this is an FPS, it's GOING to be different. So that said...

Let's talk about Alpha Strikes.

I was reading that the dev team thinks Alpha Strikes are a problem-that the prevalence of builds in meta that focus on doing the biggest Alpha they can is something that bothers the devs. This may be outdated info or whatever have you, but I was reading it just the other day. This got me thinking about how the board game deals with this issue, and in so thinking about that, I also got to thinking about the differences between MWO Heat and BattleTech Heat.

Most MechWarrior players I've ever talked to don't KNOW that the Heat system in BattleTech is BRUTAL. If you're mad that your mech shuts down at "max" heat, you may not want to read this link, 'cuz that's PANSY MODE for BattleTech. http://d20battletech.wikidot.com/heat

Important: I know BattleTech's heat system is designed for a TURN BASED STRATEGY game and would NOT be good for an FPS. But I *believe* that sticking a little closer to that table would vastly improve the "balance" of the game. If nothing else, it would make shake up the meta very hard and max damage alphas would probably disappear...or be made of Gauss Rifles exclusively.

So how do we get there? ...I'm not sure. I don't KNOW exactly how they translated a BattleTech turn to model heat and heat dissipation in real time. My best guess is they doubled the Max heat a 'mech could sustain at any one time (so 60 instead of 30 Heat) and then applied a linear amount of heat cooled per heat sink per "time period" that I also do not know. That "time period" is very key to this discussion. They may have painstakingly adapted a variant of the rules and it's just obtuse on the surface... but I more strongly suspect they took the concept and applied their own internal reasoning to it as that would be appropriate for an entirely different game.

Anyhow. I'm just responding to what I was reading. I don't know how current it all is, I'm late to this party, on and on. And if this has been talked about prior to me chiming in, well... it's till a good idea. So there. ;p

[Zyllos]

If this is a serious post (sorry, account is relatively new), heat is only used to maintain the maximum amount of DPS certain builds can release.

What kept alpha strikes balanced for TT was every single weapon fired hit a different location randomly (M to N) where in MWO all fired weapons hit a single random location (M to 1).

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

THIS... IS... NOT... TABLETOP...!

[Foxfire]

The problem that this game has had with inserting TT mechanics into this game.. and one that has led to the high alpha meta that has existed in this game since Closed Beta, is the fact that you have pin point damage weapons and perfect convergence.

Since they cannot add convergence mechanics to the game to help balance out these aspects, they are rightfully starting to look at the ability to Alpha Strike.

[Devilsfury]

Look at the DW with 2 gause and 2 erppc with 6 small lasers. If that isnt an Alpha strike issue, I dont know what is. Hell, just the ERPPC and Gause is bad enough and they can do it like 4-5X before overheating.

Edited by Devilsfury, 15 July 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Ph30nix]

a rework of the heat system would be a start in the right direction to correct alot of problems
altering convergence would be another.

To me each section of a mech that carries weapons should be assigned its own "aim point" on top of the traditional center of screen.

if one or two weapons are fired then they go center, if multiple weapons are fired they aim off center to their designated aim points.

could program it so each weapon has its own threshold so say ML have a threshold of 4 weapons and gauss has threshold of 2 (just random numbers) and you fire 2 ML and a Gauss, the 2 ML will go center but the Gauss will go slightly off center.

now by off center im talking a few pixels nothing more this change would not effect brawlers too much (slight dispersion of DPS) but snipers would have their DPS spread out alot more unless they chain fired.

Devilsfury, on 15 July 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Look at the DW with 2 gause and 2 erppc with 6 small lasers. If that isnt an Alpha strike issue, I dont know what is. Hell, just the ERPPC and Gause is bad enough and they can do it like 4-5X before overheating.

as i said the heat system needs a complete rework
they need to lower the cap threshold
and increase dissipation.
those changes alone would greatly alter the gameplay meta to favor DPS vs Alpha.

[Devilsfury]

Ph30nix, on 15 July 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

a rework of the heat system would be a start in the right direction to correct alot of problems
altering convergence would be another.

To me each section of a mech that carries weapons should be assigned its own "aim point" on top of the traditional center of screen.

if one or two weapons are fired then they go center, if multiple weapons are fired they aim off center to their designated aim points.

could program it so each weapon has its own threshold so say ML have a threshold of 4 weapons and gauss has threshold of 2 (just random numbers) and you fire 2 ML and a Gauss, the 2 ML will go center but the Gauss will go slightly off center.

now by off center im talking a few pixels nothing more this change would not effect brawlers too much (slight dispersion of DPS) but snipers would have their DPS spread out alot more unless they chain fired.


as i said the heat system needs a complete rework
they need to lower the cap threshold
and increase dissipation.
those changes alone would greatly alter the gameplay meta to favor DPS vs Alpha.

Agreed, good man! Now if PGI can hear that "pop".

[Sandpit]

The problem isn't alpha strikes

The problem is players that don't understand it's not supposed to be nor was it never ever intended to be the "main" mode of attack. So, they used it as such. So, PGI, implemented the systems they did, like ghost heat, to mitigate big alpha strikes non-stop

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 15 July 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

THIS... IS... NOT... TABLETOP...!

you're right, it's not table top. That still doesn't mean alpha strikes were ever intended to be the "usual" form of weapon exchange as opposed to a last-ditch effort to take out an enemy unit before you go down.

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

The problem isn't alpha strikes

The problem is players that don't understand it's not supposed to be nor was it never ever intended to be the "main" mode of attack. So, they used it as such. So, PGI, implemented the systems they did, like ghost heat, to mitigate big alpha strikes non-stop

2 PPC + 2 U[AC]/5
2 [ER]PPC + Gauss
2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss
2 Gauss
etc.

[Karl Marlow]

The hell of it is converting the tabletop heat rules into MWO wouldnt be that hard

Heats does 5 things.
It slows you down.
It lowers your accuracy
It shutsdown your mech
It risks Ammo explosions
and It has a chance of hurting the pilot if Life support is destroyed.

Slowing down the mech as it heats up should be strait forward.

Lowering your accuracy could be simply adding a little but of wobble to the Reticle as you heat up ala Jump Jetting. For that matter walking and running should add a little wobble too.

Shuting down your mech should be more than just avoiding max heat. As you get hotter your mech wants to shut down. You have to overide before it happens. As it gets hotter the window to hit the overide should be smaller.

Ammo explosions should be a big risk when your mech starts to cook. If you ride the line you should be taking a chance.

The Pilot damage thing is the only thing that doesnt really translate into MWO. TO be honest the odds of this ever happening in TT is rare. However you could instead just have heat distortion inside the cockpit as it gets really hot.

[Sandpit]

FupDup, on 15 July 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

2 PPC + 2 U[AC]/5
2 [ER]PPC + Gauss
2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss
2 Gauss
etc.

don't understand what you're getting at?

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

don't understand what you're getting at?

Those are alpha strikes. The builds carrying those weapons currently use them as the first, second, third, etc means of attack...not just a last resort.

[Noth]

ThomasMarik, on 15 July 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

The hell of it is converting the tabletop heat rules into MWO wouldnt be that hard

Heats does 5 things.
It slows you down.
It lowers your accuracy
It shutsdown your mech
It risks Ammo explosions
and It has a chance of hurting the pilot if Life support is destroyed.

Slowing down the mech as it heats up should be strait forward.

Lowering your accuracy could be simply adding a little but of wobble to the Reticle as you heat up ala Jump Jetting. For that matter walking and running should add a little wobble too.

Shuting down your mech should be more than just avoiding max heat. As you get hotter your mech wants to shut down. You have to overide before it happens. As it gets hotter the window to hit the overide should be smaller.

Ammo explosions should be a big risk when your mech starts to cook. If you ride the line you should be taking a chance.

The Pilot damage thing is the only thing that doesnt really translate into MWO. TO be honest the odds of this ever happening in TT is rare. However you could instead just have heat distortion inside the cockpit as it gets really hot.

Doing that all dynamically in real time would just be a pain to implement and likely not a good gameplay experience as you'd be bouncing around the heat scale so often you'd have penalties, then suddenly you wouldn't, then suddenly you'd have more penalties and so forth. It's too much change in performance to fast and too often to be good gameplay in an fps.

[Sandpit]

FupDup, on 15 July 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Those are alpha strikes. The builds carrying those weapons currently use them as the first, second, third, etc means of attack...not just a last resort.

I'm still not sure what your'e getting at though since you quoted me

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

I'm still not sure what your'e getting at though since you quoted me

I listed examples of several popular alpha strikes in the post you originally quoted:

FupDup, on 15 July 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

2 PPC + 2 U[AC]/5
2 [ER]PPC + Gauss
2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss
2 Gauss
etc.

Those are alpha strikes. Players equipping those weapon combinations, including myself at times, don't wait until a "last resort" to fire them.

While grinding my Daishi, I used the 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss alpha strike as the first attack I made, the second, and so on. The only time I didn't alpha strike was when I already got to high enough heat from previous alpas that I needed to cool down for a moment...in those cases I just used the dual Gauss until I was ready for the whole payload again.

You said that things like heat are to make alphas a "last resort," but those builds up above (and others unlisted) simply do not wait for a last resort to use them. Those builds use their alpha when they make first contact, and keep using them throughout the whole battle unless they are currently cooling down.

[Devilsfury]

FupDup, on 15 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I listed examples of several popular alpha strikes in the post you originally quoted:


Those are alpha strikes. Players equipping those weapon combinations, including myself at times, don't wait until a "last resort" to fire them.

While grinding my Daishi, I used the 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss alpha strike as the first attack I made, the second, and so on. The only time I didn't alpha strike was when I already got to high enough heat from previous alpas that I needed to cool down for a moment...in those cases I just used the dual Gauss until I was ready for the whole payload again.

You said that things like heat are to make alphas a "last resort," but those builds up above (and others unlisted) simply do not wait for a last resort to use them. Those builds use their alpha when they make first contact, and keep using them throughout the whole battle unless they are currently cooling down.

EXACTLY!!

[Sandpit]

FupDup, on 15 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

u said that things like heat are to make alphas a "last resort," but those builds up above (and others unlisted) simply do not wait for a last resort to use them. Those builds use their alpha when they make first contact, and keep using them throughout the whole battle unless they are currently cooling down.

No, I stated what PGI said ghost heat was for. There's a big difference.

My point is that alpha strikes were never supposed to be the main "mode" of attack. I didn't give my opinion on ghost heat one way or the other. That's why I was confused.

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

No, I stated what PGI said ghost heat was for. There's a big difference.

My point is that alpha strikes were never supposed to be the main "mode" of attack. I didn't give my opinion on ghost heat one way or the other. That's why I was confused.

Well, given various builds I've used across several chassis, and being shot at by the red team in-game, they currently are the main mode of attack for many builds. Mission not accomplished.

Also, IIRC, Paul said in a NGNG podcast that heat was created to reduce the amount of damage from big alphas...not to make alpha'ing a last resort.

[Lightfoot]

Dump Ghost Heat and DHS 1.4 and I am all for it. Oh yeah, make the Gauss Rifle work normally too.

[SolasTau]

Yes, it is a serious topic. And for those who can't read, I KNOW it's not Table Top.

My point is that Table Top has systems to discourage this behavior whereas MWO does not.

I think we can safely slow mechs down due to heat levels. I'm not sure if pursuing a jittery aiming system for heat accuracy loss is a 'good' thing to do in an FPS. I wouldn't actually use that one *for an FPS* personally. Ammo combustion? Again, not sure I'd do that. But the tiered shut downs, maybe as a 'spike heat detected triggers emergency shutdown' type of thing? That could be valid.

I know that overall heat capacity is a chunk of this issue. It's really not even close to what it is in Table Top, but the weapons OTHERWISE CONFORM to Table Top specs in most situations. If that is the case, the way heat was designed *in Table Top* was to balance those weapons for a system that has a MUCH LOWER top threshold.