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An Often Overlooked Issue Contributing To The Meta.

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#21 Vassago Rain

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:03 PM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 18 July 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:


.

Map geometry isn't broke.

Your cockpit has a higher vantage point than your arms / torso (where your weapons are mounted).

What looks like a clear shot from the perspective of your cockpit isn't always a clear shot from a lower elevation.

edit:

The way to counter it is to aim at the highest part of a mech that is visible. That'll give you the best chance of shooting over obstacles.


Map geometry is totally broken. There's a lot of invisible walls all over the place, such as the pillars on HPG.

#22 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:09 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 18 July 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:


Map geometry is totally broken. There's a lot of invisible walls all over the place, such as the pillars on HPG.


Those aren't invisible walls.

From the perspective of your cockpit, it may *look* like you have a clear shot.

From the perspective of your lasers, PPC's, AC's, SRM's, machine guns or whatever.

Those are mounted lower and to the side of where your cockpit is.

A lot of the time what *looks* like a clear shot from your cockpit.

Isn't a clear shot from where your weapons are mounted.

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 18 July 2014 - 10:47 PM.


#23 Sephlock

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:54 PM

View PostTed Wayz, on 15 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

An often overlooked issue contributing to the meta is....skill. Believe it or not it actually take skill. That is why competitive players are good at it (and many are not).

Nerf one meta and another takes its' place. That never changes in games. Mainly because no matter how well you balance the game you can never balance the players. Not even through matchmaking.

Btw, I have no skill but I do not harbor a grudge against people who do as long as they treat us mere mortals with respect.


They don't.

Also, how about a fun meta?

#24 Raymund

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:31 PM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 18 July 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:


Those aren't invisible walls.

From the perspective of your cockpit, it may *look* like you have a clear shot.

From the perspective of your lasers, PPC's, AC's, SRM's, machine guns or whatever.

Those are mounted lower and to the side of where your cockpit is.

A lot of the time what *looks* like a clear shot from your cockpit.

Isn't a clear shot from where your weapons are mounted.

.


What? You have not experienced the issue at hand it appears. Even torso guns get block by invisible walls when they should have landed a clear shot.

#25 William Mountbank

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:33 PM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 18 July 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:


Those aren't invisible walls.

From the perspective of your cockpit, it may *look* like you have a clear shot.

From the perspective of your lasers, PPC's, AC's, SRM's, machine guns or whatever.

Those are mounted lower and to the side of where your cockpit is.

A lot of the time what *looks* like a clear shot from your cockpit.

Isn't a clear shot from where your weapons are mounted.

.


Actually you're wrong about this. If you stand by the edge of almost any wall or cliff and fire with your outside weapon arm, you will see the shot clearly hit thin air one or two metres to the side of the obstacle. You can even see it happening with enemy mechs, they stand at an edge and their arm and torso is clearly visible, but you cannot hit them, only the air in front, and if they shoot PPC or gauss you can clearly see the shot impacting just in front of them, but against air, not the obstacle.

#26 Cabal668

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:47 PM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 18 July 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:


Those aren't invisible walls.

From the perspective of your cockpit, it may *look* like you have a clear shot.

From the perspective of your lasers, PPC's, AC's, SRM's, machine guns or whatever.

Those are mounted lower and to the side of where your cockpit is.

A lot of the time what *looks* like a clear shot from your cockpit.

Isn't a clear shot from where your weapons are mounted.

.


Sorry, but you are completely wrong. There are these "invisible" Walls on almost every Map. In my Tomberwolf i have a ER Large Laser directly left and under my cockpit. I look left of a Stone on a map and see an enemy. i fire that ERLL and ist just smashes somewhere into the air left of the stone i'm half coverd behind. This IS a problem of wrong hitboxes. Try it out with mechs, who have the weapons directly left or right of the cockpit.

#27 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:42 AM

View PostRaymund, on 18 July 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

What? You have not experienced the issue at hand it appears. Even torso guns get block by invisible walls when they should have landed a clear shot.

View PostWilliam Mountbank, on 18 July 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:


Actually you're wrong about this. If you stand by the edge of almost any wall or cliff and fire with your outside weapon arm, you will see the shot clearly hit thin air one or two metres to the side of the obstacle. You can even see it happening with enemy mechs, they stand at an edge and their arm and torso is clearly visible, but you cannot hit them, only the air in front, and if they shoot PPC or gauss you can clearly see the shot impacting just in front of them, but against air, not the obstacle.

View PostCabal668, on 18 July 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:


Sorry, but you are completely wrong. There are these "invisible" Walls on almost every Map. In my Tomberwolf i have a ER Large Laser directly left and under my cockpit. I look left of a Stone on a map and see an enemy. i fire that ERLL and ist just smashes somewhere into the air left of the stone i'm half coverd behind. This IS a problem of wrong hitboxes. Try it out with mechs, who have the weapons directly left or right of the cockpit.


I just logged in & tried to see how accurate the collision detection is in the raised center portion of HPG manifold. Used a stalker with large laser on CT in training grounds.

Its not that bad.

It only seems like there's a major wall there due to the extra degrees of geometry provided by torso / arm mounted guns.

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 19 July 2014 - 12:43 AM.


#28 Oderint dum Metuant

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 01:06 AM

Map designers are bad, you can clearly see they were rushed, there is no way some of the maps in play should be on the servers, the geometry is flat out horrendous

#29 Ursh

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 01:26 AM

Lining up a great sneaky shot on someone between buildings, or who just has a shoulder exposed over the top of a hill, corner of a building, etc, and then seeing my shots evaporate/explode against thin air is absolutely infuriating.

It's map geometry, not my cockpit perspective being different from my weapon location. I can take a Shadowhawk, where the ballistics are mounted right next to the cockpit and duplicate the invisible walls.

Another place the invisible walls are bad are Tourmaline. Those broken, jagged ridges are really a more or less solid mass, and you can have great fun shooting the top of a mech and only impacting air instead.

#30 Aresye

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 02:11 AM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 19 July 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:


I just logged in & tried to see how accurate the collision detection is in the raised center portion of HPG manifold. Used a stalker with large laser on CT in training grounds.

Its not that bad.

It only seems like there's a major wall there due to the extra degrees of geometry provided by torso / arm mounted guns.

.


On the top of HPG, your target has to pretty much be perfectly lined up in the middle between 2 pillars in order to hit it, and it's clear as day there's an issue. You can even use this as an advantage by giving your opponents what they think is a clear shot, and watch as their weapons stop midair right in front of your face.

It isn't hard to tell the difference between actually clipping terrain with your weapons, and hitting an invisible wall from bad map geo. Anybody with more than a week's experience playing this game should know how to avoid hitting terrain with their weapons. I'm also a 3d modeler and understand the basics of creating physics models for objects (generally low poly), how they're used, and common errors associated with creating them, including the most common error of making them too low in detail that the two meshes don't line up, which results in invisible walls.

You're either being very stubborn, or just flat out trolling. I'm assuming the latter, because there's nothing to gain by not fixing it.

#31 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 03:27 AM

It is also the clutter of the maps. There are no open rolling hills, the maps have so many little chokepoints, so many bits of rubble and rocks etc

This makes JJs even more popular and then you get some of those clipping issues going on to boot - or if your team has too any groundpounders they get in each other way more but JJ mechs can clear each other for the shot.

If there was more open ground mechs could manouvre better basically.

I am frustrated by the invisible walls stuff though - its not a huge issue but it does contribute

#32 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 04:03 AM

View PostDV McKenna, on 19 July 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Map designers are bad, you can clearly see they were rushed, there is no way some of the maps in play should be on the servers, the geometry is flat out horrendous

View PostUrsh, on 19 July 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

Lining up a great sneaky shot on someone between buildings, or who just has a shoulder exposed over the top of a hill, corner of a building, etc, and then seeing my shots evaporate/explode against thin air is absolutely infuriating.

It's map geometry, not my cockpit perspective being different from my weapon location. I can take a Shadowhawk, where the ballistics are mounted right next to the cockpit and duplicate the invisible walls.

Another place the invisible walls are bad are Tourmaline. Those broken, jagged ridges are really a more or less solid mass, and you can have great fun shooting the top of a mech and only impacting air instead.

View PostAresye, on 19 July 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:


On the top of HPG, your target has to pretty much be perfectly lined up in the middle between 2 pillars in order to hit it, and it's clear as day there's an issue. You can even use this as an advantage by giving your opponents what they think is a clear shot, and watch as their weapons stop midair right in front of your face.

It isn't hard to tell the difference between actually clipping terrain with your weapons, and hitting an invisible wall from bad map geo. Anybody with more than a week's experience playing this game should know how to avoid hitting terrain with their weapons. I'm also a 3d modeler and understand the basics of creating physics models for objects (generally low poly), how they're used, and common errors associated with creating them, including the most common error of making them too low in detail that the two meshes don't line up, which results in invisible walls.

You're either being very stubborn, or just flat out trolling. I'm assuming the latter, because there's nothing to gain by not fixing it.


Close your right eye.

Now, open your right eye & close your left.

Notice the difference in perspective a few scant inches makes?

I suspect the 3 of you underestimate the difference a few degrees difference makes in terms of geometry.

Collision detection in games is seldom if ever perfect.

You don't notice it in other FPS games as they're dumbed down and less realistic in a even-a-caveman-could-do-it-type-way.

In CoD, battlefield and other shooters your weapon is centered in the middle of your body as opposed to one side or the other as it would be in a realistic setting. If you're wielding an AK-47 in CoD, it fires from the perspective of the center of your body at eye level which means you don't run into issues where your weapon is off center or lower than eye level in elevation.

Its inaccurate to say the collision detection on maps is bad.

It isn't bad, its accurate / realistic.

Your weapons are mounted off center and at times far below your perspective.

Hence you will often run into cases where it looks like you have a clear shot from your perspective but from the perspective of your weapons there are obstructions in the way.

Developers could do what CoD & other shooters and dumb things down to where weapons mounted in arms or torsos fire from the centerline of your body at eye level.

But, that would dilute from the realism factor and make the game feel more like a cs clone, which would be counter productive.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 19 July 2014 - 04:07 AM.


#33 Vassago Rain

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 04:59 AM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 19 July 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:


Close your right eye.

Now, open your right eye & close your left.

Notice the difference in perspective a few scant inches makes?

I suspect the 3 of you underestimate the difference a few degrees difference makes in terms of geometry.

Collision detection in games is seldom if ever perfect.

You don't notice it in other FPS games as they're dumbed down and less realistic in a even-a-caveman-could-do-it-type-way.

In CoD, battlefield and other shooters your weapon is centered in the middle of your body as opposed to one side or the other as it would be in a realistic setting. If you're wielding an AK-47 in CoD, it fires from the perspective of the center of your body at eye level which means you don't run into issues where your weapon is off center or lower than eye level in elevation.

Its inaccurate to say the collision detection on maps is bad.

It isn't bad, its accurate / realistic.

Your weapons are mounted off center and at times far below your perspective.

Hence you will often run into cases where it looks like you have a clear shot from your perspective but from the perspective of your weapons there are obstructions in the way.

Developers could do what CoD & other shooters and dumb things down to where weapons mounted in arms or torsos fire from the centerline of your body at eye level.

But, that would dilute from the realism factor and make the game feel more like a cs clone, which would be counter productive.


Bro, you're a two-bit troll.

#34 Oderint dum Metuant

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:35 AM

View PostVassago Rain, on 19 July 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:


Bro, you're a two-bit troll.


I was going with brain dead....but yours is nicer because nobody can be that dumb.

#35 Blacksoul1987

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:42 AM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 19 July 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:





I just logged in & tried to see how accurate the collision detection is in the raised center portion of HPG manifold. Used a stalker with large laser on CT in training grounds.

Its not that bad.

It only seems like there's a major wall there due to the extra degrees of geometry provided by torso / arm mounted guns.

.

its bad just so bad. I don't freak out about it as much as other people but it is bad there is no denying it.

View PostDV McKenna, on 19 July 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:



I was going with brain dead....but yours is nicer because nobody can be that dumb.

you snow ravens just battered every clan I was in MW4.....must get revenge......

#36 Koniving

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:44 AM

View PostPjwned, on 15 July 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

I'm sure that often enough it's just me aiming poorly, but I swear that invisible map boundaries have eaten a lot of gauss shells that should've otherwise hit.


Tip. Use a TAG. If the TAG beam won't touch them, (i.e. it stops on a magical invisible wall as if blocked) your rifle can't touch them.

#37 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:13 AM

View PostVassago Rain, on 19 July 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:


Bro, you're a two-bit troll.


Ha. That's funny. Aren't you the one a lot of people on here accuse of being a troll?

Are you accusing me of troll superiority, or do you just have nothing relevent to offer to the discussion?

View PostDV McKenna, on 19 July 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:


I was going with brain dead....but yours is nicer because nobody can be that dumb.


Zz zz zz z zZZ

L2P.

The reason you complain about things like "map errors" is n00bness inhabiting your body.

You must L2P harder to defeat your n00bness and then you won't have to complain about these things.

View PostBlacksoul1987, on 19 July 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

its bad just so bad. I don't freak out about it as much as other people but it is bad there is no denying it.


No denying what?

Drop in 3rd person & try shooting around corners.

Then switch to 1st person.

You might realize a lot of obstructions you thought were caused by "map errors" are a result of weapons being mounted far from your 1st person point of view.

:D

#38 Blacksoul1987

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 19 July 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:



Ha. That's funny. Aren't you the one a lot of people on here accuse of being a troll?

Are you accusing me of troll superiority, or do you just have nothing relevent to offer to the discussion?



Zz zz zz z zZZ

L2P.

The reason you complain about things like "map errors" is n00bness inhabiting your body.

You must L2P harder to defeat your n00bness and then you won't have to complain about these things.



No denying what?

Drop in 3rd person & try shooting around corners.

Then switch to 1st person.

You might realize a lot of obstructions you thought were caused by "map errors" are a result of weapons being mounted far from your 1st person point of view.

:D

telling DV McKenna L2P? lol IIRC they were one of the top competitive teams before they stopped playing.

#39 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:40 AM

View PostBlacksoul1987, on 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

telling DV McKenna L2P? lol IIRC they were one of the top competitive teams before they stopped playing.


So was I.

.

#40 Malleus011

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:03 AM

I've lost plenty of PPC fire to invisible terrain ... while taking return fire. It's highly annoying.

I agree with the OP, but I doubt PGI has the resources to deal with this issue.





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