48 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

Scrotacus 42, on 15 July 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

people just arbitrarily picked me out of a blob when they could have lrmed a warhawk or a dire whale standing right next to me. There wasn't **** I could do.

Speaking as a LRM specialist, it's rarely arbitrary that you got picked out as a target. Real LRM specialists typically fire on either available targets, or targets they know their LRM line of fire would not intersect terrain (meaning the LRMs would actually hit).

So in this case, either they did not have the Warhawk or Dire Wolf as a target -- potentially because either were in partial cover and thus do not show up as targets, since you need at least 40% of the Mech to be visible before the target lock appears -- or they had overhead cover, or the line of fire has interfering terrain.

Compound the problem is your Nova, which requires you to practically expose your entire mech to fight. Nova in particular is vulnerable to this problem because the build is so compact and low that just to see over cover, you will be eligible as a target. A Warhawk or Dire Wolf can peek over cover and still have most of its body in cover, so the enemy can't target them.

Your footwork could also be a problem. A Warhawk or Dire Wolf occupies significant space and you would have to give them even more room to fight. Which means if you are blobbing with them -- two of them -- the odds are that you're displaced into poorer cover or insufficient overhead cover. Which just makes you more of a tempting target for the LRM boats.

Lastly -- you're in a 50 ton mech. A Heavy LRM boat looks at 50 ton mechs as "something I can disable quickly". Tossing a few salvo at you means you're weakened for their teammates to pick on. If I have nothing better to fire on, I won't mind tossing a few at such a target too.

Scrotacus 42, on 15 July 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

Once was on tourmaline, where theres no appreciable cover where the fighting happens. The next one I got legged in 1-2 volleys from a Warhawk on Crimson at the beginning of the match I was following my team up the ramp and stupid warhawk just happened to peek from a corner and tag me and then lrm after lrm after lrm. theres no cover that works on top of the platform on Crimson.

Tourmaline has more of "interfering terrain in line of fire" rather than cover. I've seen pilots make good use of that to protect themselves.

Crimson up-ramp has cover. Because a LRM boat firing from ground level has lowered arc of fire, the buildings and all typically provide cover -- I've blocked LRM fire from the sea side with the buildings and skeleton towers before. In addition, what's a Nova doing on top of the Crimson ramp anyway? It's a bad place to deploy a Nova, and a bad route to take. When I ran brawl builds, I go underneath, and if I need to cross the saddle I use the ramp up from underneath -- I avoid the ramp unless I know it's relatively safe to use them.

The key to avoiding LRM is to not be detected to begin with. Cover is a substitute. Concealment is more important.

[Sandpit]

Ecrof, on 15 July 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Stand next to rocks is fun.

wait wait wait
did you just admit you don't want to find cover because it's boring after posting a complaint that LRMs kill the lightest, least armored mech in the game....?
seriously...?

[Ecrof]

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

wait wait wait
did you just admit you don't want to find cover because it's boring after posting a complaint that LRMs kill the lightest, least armored mech in the game....?
seriously...?

The way some of these players talk you would swear they just stand next to cover all match or think that there is cover every were and you can all ways stop to stand behind it safely. Not every map is river city.

[Lynx7725]

Ecrof, on 15 July 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

The way some of these players talk you would swear they just stand next to cover all match or think that there is cover every were and you can all ways stop to stand behind it safely. Not every map is river city.

Dude. I stand next to cover all match on EVERY map, or I make sure it's quickly on hand to take damage on my behalf. It's ingrained, it's second nature.

Edited by Lynx7725, 15 July 2014 - 08:47 PM.

[Rando Slim]

That's what I was trying to convey though Lynx......my lance was trying to back up three dire wolves that were pushing ahead of me in that flat open lane that leads toward f7, I forgot what line that is but if your approaching f7 (Tourmaline) from the front its the left hand lane. ALL of us were available targets, theres is ZERO cover of any kind there. Not where I wanted to go but I was following the team, we didn't have a flanking angle yet. Yea if your in a light mech you can use the little craters or elevation changes, but it doesn't worek in a Nova its just not fast enough or small enough. I can do that in a Commando or Jenner sure, but not with bigger stuff.

Im not gonna deny that my team didn't play well on that Crimson match, but it was within 3 minutes of starting of the game, we HAD to sit up top because there were already 3-4 mechs camping the mouth of the tunnel right beneath us, Im sure as hell not gonna lead a push under there in a 50 ton mech. Yea I agree top of that ramp/platform is a bad place for a Nova, but what am I supposed to do, wander off over to the saddle and just sit there and wait for who knows how long? And I cant sit on the up-ramp itself because that blocks it for others. I didn't know where that warhawk was because he was under ECM, no one could call it out.
And honestly most of those buildings on top of the platform are too short to provide good cover, the taller skinny things work kind of ok.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 15 July 2014 - 08:59 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Scrotacus 42, on 15 July 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

That's what I was trying to convey though Lynx......my lance was trying to back up three dire wolves that were pushing ahead of me in that flat open lane that leads toward f7, I forgot what line that is but if your approaching f7 (Tourmaline) from the front its the left hand lane. ALL of us were available targets, theres is ZERO cover of any kind there. Not where I wanted to go but I was following the team, we didn't have a flanking angle yet. Yea if your in a light mech you can use the little craters or elevation changes, but it doesn't worek in a Nova its just not fast enough or small enough.

The first issue -- flat open lane. LRMs or not, "Flat Open" is a key thing to avoid in MWO. The F7 Tourmaline area is a kill box, so moving through it require either full throttle from point to point. If your team got caught out in the open there, direct fire weapons would have a field day.. LRM boats just sit behind and lob, really.

Moving as a team, you don't need to stay with the team as in hug them, as long as you can provide covering fire it's good enough. It's better to move from cover to cover, but in range to provide supporting fire for the team. Scoot forward in the Nova from the hump of one upslope to the other, you can still provide cover for the slower moving teammates while keeping yourself safe. Fire and movement, fire and movement.

So the first error is the choice of route by your "unit leader", which denied your team concealment and cover for movement; the second is individual tactical choice during movement, which sometimes you just get caught out of concealment and cover.

With regards to why you were targeted by LRM Boats.. it's probable that whoever targeted you just chose you by random. Why they didn't pick on the Warhawk or Dire Wolf is beyond me, I'd have prioritize those over a Nova. Since the LRM Boats in indirect would work off somebody else's lock, it's really why the locker decided to prioritize you instead.

Scrotacus 42, on 15 July 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

Im not gonna deny that my team didn't play well on that Crimson match, but it was within 3 minutes of starting of the game, we HAD to sit up top because there were already 3-4 mechs camping the mouth of the tunnel right beneath us, Im sure as hell not gonna lead a push under there in a 50 ton mech. Yea I agree top of that ramp/platform is a bad place for a Nova, but what am I supposed to do, wander off over to the saddle and just sit there and wait for who knows how long? And I cant sit on the up-ramp itself because that blocks it for others. I didn't know where that warhawk was because he was under ECM, no one could call it out.

3 minutes on Crimson is enough for mechs to move a good distance, so it's not surprising that the Warhawk got into position -- Crimson Skirmish does allow for that if they really push hard. The thing about Crimson's strategy is usually that if a team entrenches in the tunnel, the opposing team would indeed use the saddle to flank and hit the entrenched team in the back. I've actually lapped Crimson TWICE in one game, doing this running game with the team. So yes, scooting for the saddle then working your way back to the other end of the tunnel is an acceptable play.

To be honest, it sounds that your team got outplayed. Enemy ECM is something that needs teamwork to overcome, and if nobody is targeting, your team is not going to win against another team that has somehow managed to get people who have inherent team-aiding abilities (like ECM and LRMs).

You're fighting in a medium mech with certain peculiarities, and you sort of have to fight within those parameters. The low profile of the Nova comes with certain advantage, like having a side profile that's near a light mech, with a firepower output that's easily equal to a heavy (for the first shot, anyway). The key to any mech is to position and fight it to its strength, and that requires you to evaluate a map, your route, and to plan for movement to provide cover for your weaknesses.

[Sandpit]

Ecrof, on 15 July 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

The way some of these players talk you would swear they just stand next to cover all match or think that there is cover every were and you can all ways stop to stand behind it safely. Not every map is river city.

Point being the correction to your problem lies in an inability to adapt as opposed to anything being op or up.

Your dismissal and refusal to take things like
Ams
Radar dep
Shaving a little speed for longevity
Understanding not every map is designed to let you scout and flank as far out on your own
Grabbing a heavier mech
Only venturing out on those wide open maps without an ecm buddy

This doesn't even explain how lrm min range should even remotely affect a long range deep scout mech who shouldn't attempt going toe to toe with ANYTHING that has enough firepower to one shot it no matter how miniscule.

You want to run a fast little squirrel go for it. Don't run it as a skirmisher. Adapt and overcome sir

[Barkem Squirrel]

I have run enough LRM boats to know one thing. From time to time I will just fire at a Locust not to just hit it, but to see if I can hit it and kill it in one volley.

Radar Deprivation mode does not help. I fire to much with line of sight using TAG and Artemis

A few things work:
using terrain for cover, concealment is does not stop missiles or anything.
limiting exposure times, I have no lock, no LRMs fired.
running just below the intervisablity line and peaking at times,
firing from the rear quarters, or sides
using AMS (in groups it will stop LRMs cold)
If fired at while stopped and spotting back up and turn when you are behind cover.

Now with my Locust, it is more of a spot and scout. Then at the end to engage from the shadows of other mechs. I can run with a few ML's, SPL's or SL's. Maybe a smaller engine to have 2 AMS. Then there are the ERLL builds for all locusts. Maybe to fight back with a LRM boat Locust (2 LRM 5's). One thing with AMS it does announce your presence, so you might want to not have it sometimes. Moving at all times is not needed, or always moving at full speed. It is nice to hammer 170, but 150 is nice also.

With spotting one way to know that you did your job is when the mechs start looking up for the UAV that is not there.

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 16 July 2014 - 04:01 AM.

[Ursh]

Ecrof, on 15 July 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Its not my fault they cant aim fast enough. Have you ever driven a locust? 2.5 tone out of 20 tones at the very least for ams.

But they are aiming fast enough. They got a lock on you, and they hit you with the slowest moving weapon in the game that also happens to warn you when it's coming.

Regarding being targeted while surrounded by heavier mechs...as a guy who's played some lrms, I'll shoot a light in the open before I shoot a direwolf who's not paying attention to me. I hate the twitchy fast movers, so if I can strip 'em or cripple 'em when they think they're safe, they'll be much easier to kill later in the match when they reappear after their team is dead. I'll have plenty of time to shoot a dire wolf, but I don't like untouched lights buzzing up behind me late in a fight. I want you dead the beginning so i can make your game experience worse.

Edited by Ursh, 16 July 2014 - 04:12 AM.