213 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Cavendish, on 16 July 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

I didnt think the competitive scene used LRMs at all?

They don't, this guy has no idea what he is talking about. Be happy your daughter put up 700 dmg dude instead you write angry thread about how she is better then you. Grow up and L2P!

[Biaxialrain]

Yeah, now long range weapons are good at all ranges!?!

Stupid. Dumbest thing I've seen.

[Charons Little Helper]

Biaxialrain, on 16 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Yeah, now long range weapons are good at all ranges!?!

Yep - it's called an AC5.

Look at the CLRM %s - within 120-140ish meters LRMs aren't worth the heat for the damage they do if you have anything else to fire. Better than nothing - but not good.

[Dracol]

Biaxialrain, on 16 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Yeah, now long range weapons are good at all ranges!?!

Stupid. Dumbest thing I've seen.

Guass and AC/2 have always dealt damage any range.... should we nerf those too?

Edited by Dracol, 16 July 2014 - 08:06 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Quxudica, on 16 July 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons require more thinking, considering you need to put yourself in actual danger to use them.

Yeah, for that whole half a second before you fall back down behind cover.

[Demoncard]

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Something does not add up here...

You lack reading comprehension. I didn't say nobody was smart enough to close distance with lurm boats, so I'm going to ignore that part of your post entirely. Take your strawmen elsewhere.

LRM boats are indeed helpless at close range. You win a medallion for posting the obvious. Enjoy your loyalty points.

Firing off a shot with an AC2 will take around half a second, yes. But you'll need to fire for much longer than that to deal any real sort of damage, and actually aim instead of merely holding lock. With lurms, you're just locking on and hitting your choice of firing button, usually from behind cover, always at a distance, and sometimes at a distance from where you can't be shot at by your target. There's inherently more risk involved for direct fire weapons than lurming, even at similar ranges.

Edited by Demoncard, 16 July 2014 - 08:27 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

You lack reading comprehension. I didn't say nobody was smart enough to close distance with lurm boats, so I'm going to ignore that part of your post entirely. Take your strawmen elsewhere.

LRM boats are indeed helpless at close range. You win a medallion for posting the obvious. Enjoy your loyalty points.

Firing off a shot with an AC2 will take around half a second, yes. But you'll need to fire for much longer than that to deal any real sort of damage, and actually aim instead of merely holding lock. With lurms, you're just locking on and hitting your choice of firing button, usually from behind cover, always at a distance, and sometimes at a distance from where you can't be shot at by your target.

LRM's do not require snap-shot point-and-click skills. They do, however, require positioning skills, the ability to time your lock appropriately, and teamwork maintaining those locks.

In addition for this different skillset, LRM's, as a whole, are nerfed via a variety of mechanics:

Completely Negated by ECM - unless you also load TAG and have LOS, or your ally does.
Reduced in damage via AMS
Severely reduced by multiple AMS
Lose lock via a module
Cannot lock onto a specific area to intentionally deal damage to ONE place
Have a slow enough travel time to be seen and avoided (unlike most other weapons at the same ranges)
And are useless at close range...so if you boat them you're going to get your face eaten by lights and brawlers.

LRM's are unique compared to other weapons in the game...they are by no means BETTER and have the odds stacked against them. A smart LRM player positions well and keeps out of the brawl...but against a decent enemy he'll be reduced to assisting the brawl by screen-shaking opponents and rattling them while FLD players and brawlers get the kills.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 16 July 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Graugger]

FLD is only good if you have a direct LOS, LRMS (especially clan) can fire OVER things even structures up to 7 or 8 stories tall including the citadel in River City. And NARC works even when powered down so the only good cover you have are the 6 or 7 really tall buildings in Frozen City, 8 or 9 in River City, and so on, of course if you get Caustic Valley you're just boned.

Can't advance on a LRM boat if its just open field for 2 KM and there's three of them over there. Other day I watched a Dire Wolf get dropped by a single Stalker LRM boat while he was bear hugging the edge of the valley in Canyon Network then our DDC got NARC'd and hit from 3 separate directions by LRM boats while standing UNDER one of the stone bridge things.

[Demoncard]

Are we going to keep repeating the pros and cons of lurms in different ways, until CW's released? Nobody's in any doubt as to how to use lurms, or how to counter lurms. I don't know where you're getting this impression. Reposting recycled text walls from memory is going to do little to stop these threads from appearing.

Ghost Badger, on 16 July 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

lurm 101

Ok.

Nothing new has been posted in this thread.

Edited by Demoncard, 16 July 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Are we going to keep repeating the pros and cons of lurms in different ways, until CW's released? Nobody's in any doubt as to how to use lurms, or how to counter lurms. I don't know where you're getting this impression. Reposting recycled text walls from memory is going to do little to stop these threads from appearing.


Ok.

Nothing new has been posted in this thread.

LOL...fine Demon. Let's assume you and I both understand "LRM's 101." MY takeaway is that they aren't terribly effective, and certainly not OP. From what I've been reading, you disagree. So, since we're looking at the same data and coming away with different ideas of what it means, let's just agree to disagree, 'cause I'm done trying to convince you. The data looks clear to me.

Graugger, on 16 July 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

FLD is only good if you have a direct LOS

Wow, really? Anything that ISN'T LRM's requires line of sight.

Quote

LRMS (especially clan) can fire OVER things even structures up to 7 or 8 stories tall including the citadel in River City.

Only if people are already shooting from pretty high up. Otherwise the arc interferes and hits the buildings. I use them for cover constantly without issues.

Quote

And NARC works even when powered down so the only good cover you have are the 6 or 7 really tall buildings in Frozen City, 8 or 9 in River City, and so on, of course if you get Caustic Valley you're just boned.

I find cover, around the bowl, on Caustic, pretty consistenly. It's about finding the steepest slopes and moving laterally...moving the missiles into the angle you want. *Using Math in a completely different way than your teachers meant when they said "You'll use this."*

Quote

Can't advance on a LRM boat if its just open field for 2 KM and there's three of them over there.

Where exactly do LRM-boats go where they are COMPLETELY unapproachable from cover? If they are TRULY just waiting for you to cross an open field...then DON'T. Go somewhere else. Cap something. Assist your teammate killing something else. If it's JUST you left, well, you're boned anyway. A 3-on-1 is almost always non-salvageable unless they are VERY damaged.

Quote

Other day I watched a Dire Wolf get dropped by a single Stalker LRM boat while he was bear hugging the edge of the valley in Canyon Network

When the clumsiest mech in the game pilots himself into a corner and bends over...that's pretty much what happens.

Quote

then our DDC got NARC'd and hit from 3 separate directions by LRM boats while standing UNDER one of the stone bridge things.

What an excellent use of the teamwork mechanic. Not all missiles go straight down...hiding next to a hill is far better than under a skinny stone umbrella.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 16 July 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[Alexandrix]

Wanna make LRM's not such a load of crap? (for both sides)

-Require either personal/self LOS,narc,tag,or UAV to lock.no more of this "my team mate see's you from 900m out,MISSILES AWAY TROLLOLOLOL" crap.

-Make the arc more shallow.I've been targeted by LRM's,ran behind cover twice as tall as my own mech....and still got rained on.While I was virtually butt humping a sheer cliff wall at least 20 meters high between myself and the LRM'er.What kind of garbage is this?

-Assuming the above two are done,remove the need to maintain lock after the missiles are fired.I think that'd be a fair trade.Also,a slight speed increase might be in order.

Makes them more of a weapon that you have to actually actively engage in the fight with,Rather than sit 800 meters back and press mouse 1.Well,unless you are using teamwork.But,teamwork is OP anyways

Edited by Alexandrix, 16 July 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[Demoncard]

Ghost Badger, on 16 July 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Reduced in damage via AMS
Severely reduced by multiple AMS

For clarity, this is what I disagree with. AMS is too easily overwhelmed to be considered an LRM deterrent. I can't remember exactly how many AMS it takes to completely counter an LRM boat, but it's disproportionately more than it should be.

Of course, nothing beats getting to cover, AMS is only a supplement, kill the catapult, etc etc. That wasn't supposed to read as sarcasm.

Edited by Demoncard, 16 July 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Tezcatli]

LRMs do good if there's no enemy ECM. If people aren't quick to get into cover. If you can boat quite a few of them. So something large or a Clan. And of course the modules, tag, artemis, and someone spotting for you all pretty much required to get solid damage. Otherwise you get what I got last night. Infuriating cat and mouse that ultimately ended with wanting to burn my Trebuchet down.

[Fut]

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Firing off a shot with an AC2 will take around half a second, yes. But you'll need to fire for much longer than that to deal any real sort of damage, and actually aim instead of merely holding lock.

AC2s? How many of you Tryhards actually use AC2s these days?
Funny that you had to construct a very unlikely scenario for your little discussion here.

How about the people rocking multiple AC5s and PPCs? How long do they have to stay on target to deal serious damage?

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

With lurms, you're just locking on and hitting your choice of firing button, usually from behind cover, always at a distance, and sometimes at a distance from where you can't be shot at by your target. There's inherently more risk involved for direct fire weapons than lurming, even at similar ranges.

Uhhh.... Alright. So you describe the 'worst case' scenario of LRM usage. Good job. Now lets look at LRMs from the perspective of somebody who isn't a complete rookie in the cockpit.

When I use LRMs, it's in a HBK-4J (or the HBK-GI), throwing at most 20 missiles at a time. I'm running around the pack, TAG'n my own targets and launching missiles from ~300m+. So tell me, is it more risky for me to do this - or to fire off a couple MLs (or an AC if I'm in my GI) and scuttle back into cover?

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

With lurms, you're just locking on and hitting your choice of firing button, usually from behind cover, always at a distance, and sometimes at a distance from where you can't be shot at by your target.

PS. A few Direct Fire Weapons have better range than LRMs. So what the **** are you talking about here?

[Zerberus]

MetalGandalph, on 16 July 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

No i dont get killed by lrm that often but when teams or players abuse lrms with 3+ lrm boats its kinda frustrating and destroys the play dynamic into a boring standoff especially with pugs.

And 12 mechs with ppcs /ac5s /GRs is NOT lacking dynamics, making it a boring standoff, esp with pugs?? Are we playing the same game? 0.o

It's funny, even the competitive scene itself regularly admits that the abuse of the PPC/AC/Gauss meta is undesirable, but every time the patch notes include anything that could even remotely impact that, 2 million cryhards swamp the forum with hyperbolic "Y U NO lik Competitif Szen3, PGEYE?!?!?!" threads thinking nobody will see through their BS.

And it really gets funny when it`s about a change like the one yesterday, when LRMs had ther splash damage (the.01 or whatever it still was) removed , and were thereby essentially nerfed (though hit registration did improve so overall damage may have increased slightly) and some proponent of "Understand less and Whine harder" comes in acting like they`re all slamming CT and nothing else.

NOTHING was done to the guidance, which has been confirmed both by the Devs yesterday and by numerous people independently teasting them, and whining about them all going CT now just proves how little you actually know what you`re talking about.

Edited by Zerberus, 16 July 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[Demoncard]

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

AC2s? How many of you Tryhards actually use AC2s these days?

I recall you bringing them up. Are you not telling us something?

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

How about the people rocking multiple AC5s and PPCs? How long do they have to stay on target to deal serious damage?

Longer than an LRM user. Those will have vastly reduced damage at range, compared to the LRM.

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

When I use LRMs, it's in a HBK-4J (or the HBK-GI), throwing at most 20 missiles at a time. I'm running around the pack, TAG'n my own targets and launching missiles from ~300m+. So tell me, is it more risky for me to do this - or to fire off a couple MLs (or an AC if I'm in my GI) and scuttle back into cover?

That sounds suboptimal. You could be using ACs and lasers at that range to get damage onto important components, instead of spraying missiles all over the enemy mech. There's nothing stopping you from scuttling back into cover after firing your LRMs. The time it takes to hit will be negligible at that range, allowing you to return at a similar time. While you vomit up missiles onto a mech with exposed internals, I could go in and break it off. If it's a CT, I'll get a kill, while you run around hitting every component for 1 point of damage with your LRM Hunchback.

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

A few Direct Fire Weapons have better range than LRMs.

AC2s, AC5s UAC5s, the ER large laser and their clan variants all have a better maximum range. They also do less damage at that range, as opposed to the LRMs, which always deal the same damage.

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

So what the **** are you talking about here?

What exactly was the point of your post? It's hard to argue against someone with no clear line of argument.

Edited by Demoncard, 16 July 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Fut]

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

I recall you bringing them up. Are you not telling us something?

Sorry, Buddy. You're wrong again. I have never mentioned AC2s in this conversation.
So much for that reading comprehension you were on about earlier, eh?

Spoiler

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

</p><p>Hmmm.. Something does not add up here...</p><p>How long does it take to get a shot off and deal damage with an AC? Half a second, maybe slightly more?</p><p>How long does it take to get a shot off and deal damage with LRMS? Exactly.</p><p>

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Longer than an LRM user. Those will have vastly reduced damage at range, compared to the LRM.

Wait.... You're saying here that it'll take longer for AC/PPC's to destroy a target at range? Riiiiiight...

Have you ever thrown missiles at somebody from ~1000m?
Might as well take those missiles out of the tubes by hand, and toss them aside. There is so much flight time at that distance, that you won't be hitting anybody but the newbiest of newbs (which isn't really their fault, they just need to get the hang of things).

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

That sounds suboptimal. You could be using ACs and lasers at that range to get damage onto important components, instead of spraying missiles all over the enemy mech. There's nothing stopping you from scuttling back into cover after firing your LRMs. The time it takes to hit will be negligible at that range, allowing you to return at a similar time.

Suboptimal? Huh?
But, I thought that LRMs were super easy mode and required no skill at all?
How can you claim that, then tell me to use ACs and lasers instead of LRMs?

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

AC2s, AC5s UAC5s, the ER large laser and their clan variants all have a better maximum range. They also do less damage at that range, as opposed to the LRMs, which always deal the same damage.

Sure sure.
Lets just forget that:
1) You claimed that LRMs can be launched from a distance so great that nobody could fire back.
2) If you're getting damaged by LRMs at max range, you clearly suck at this game - due to the advanced warnings and long flight time.
3) Regardless of how much damage reduction is occurring for the ACs/Lasers at >LRM Range, they're still providing damage to the Missile-Thrower.

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

What exactly was the point of your post? It's hard to argue against someone with no clear line of argument.

The point of my post is to help others see how foolish your line of reasoning actually is, but judging by the amount of "likes" that you and I are getting, everybody already seems to know this.

[Davers]

MetalGandalph, on 16 July 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

The competitive scene is not only HOL or SJG. there are alot good players around. I often get matched with my group against or with them.
I knew before that some would just flame this topic it must be the lrm pilots.

No i dont get killed by lrm that often but when teams or players abuse lrms with 3+ lrm boats its kinda frustrating and destroys the play dynamic into a boring standoff especially with pugs.

If you replace "LRM" with "PPC/AC" then this post makes sense.

[DAYLEET]

MetalGandalph, on 16 July 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

The new Lrms are a "**** you" from PGI to the competitive scene.
Seriously i dont understand the " 80 dmg guided pinpoint dmg to my CT ****"
My daughter is 16 and she said that the game looks cool. She never plays this kind of games.
So i put her in tutorial and testing grounds with an lrm boat.
The first 2 games AFTER THE TUTORIAL havent been that good but in the third she made 700 dmg and 3 kills.

There is no discussion that LRMS are No SKill weapons.

LRM were no "skills" last year when i joined... The whole game is "no skill" by fps standard. AC/PPC are right next after the lrm because all you need is los. then you have lasers and srms.

MetalGandalph, on 16 July 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

...and destroys the play dynamic into a boring standoff especially with pugs.

What you call "play dynamic" is your boring sterile jj ac/ppc right?

Marc von der Heide, on 16 July 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

Ohh. There was an AFK Disco. He won the game cause nobody found him in time. So nerf AFK Disco mechs. They are really overpowered.

I was spectating that guy and to be fair he did it like a Sir, he wasnt just some noob that lost connection or something.

Edited by DAYLEET, 16 July 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Demoncard]

You're cherrypicking, and ignoring the contents of the thread simultaneously. Reread pages 3 and 4, reread your own posts, and realise that you're late to the party.

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

How long does it take to get a shot off and deal damage with an AC? Half a second, maybe slightly more?

An AC2 has a half a second cycle time, maybe slightly more. Now, if you had said something like, 'on click', instead of the recycle time of an AC2, we wouldn't have that problem. The bullet travel time for an AC2 and 5 is hardly worth mentioning at all, which is why your post is so messy and incoherent.

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

"likes"

Adorable.

You're still conveniently ignoring the content of my past posts, hastily creating straw men, and trying to make out that I'm some sort of lurm victim, seasoned with the use of ad hominem insults.

God only knows why you keep posting misaddressed drivel.

Fut, on 16 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

So what the **** are you talking about here?

Edited by Demoncard, 16 July 2014 - 10:27 AM.