199 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Ghost heat works and is not really a problem for LL.
the 3rd LL only adds something like 3.4 (more for ER and Pulse) wich is less than a MLaser.
But 4 or more has a higher risk/reward ratio because of higher heat penalty.

Having the Awesome/Banshee/Warhawk to space the 3rd/4th PPC is a good thing.
And it could be even penalized higher.
If the penalty for PPCs would start with 2 instead of after 2, you would get:

Here is the graph with curent 15heat ERPPCs with (orange) and without (blue) heatscale plus a new curve with penalty limit starting at 1 ERPPC (red).
The second ERPPC will do additional 5.4 heat for a total of 35.4 heat instead of 30.
The third will do additional 5.4 heat for a total of 17.55 heat penalty and a total of 62.55 heat instead of 57,15 heat.

Edited by Reno Blade, 18 July 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Archon]

If they nerf the dual gauss + PPC link, then they would have to drastically increase the Direwolfs' maneuverability, because right now having that much firepower is the only thing that makes it a threat.

A change like this would also make LRMs dominant. As it stands precision weapons are a good counterbalance to LRMs and vice versa.

Edited by Archon, 18 July 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Karl Marlow]

Hobgoblin I, on 17 July 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

It is a slippery slope saying you can't fire X amount of weapons at once as a hard rule. Ghost heat is bad enough already, I really don't want to keep seeing band **** applied to a broken heat or convergence issue. They need to fix the core issues.

<edit> seriously? you can't say the plural of the word that comes after band in the brand name of the adhesive bandages???

I believe the Politically correct plural of Bandage is 'Bandai'

[Rhent]

Livewyr, on 18 July 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

And your post, regarding his, on the matter is better?

Sorry you have problem with logic, moving on.

[OneEyed Jack]

ThomasMarik, on 18 July 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

I believe the Politically correct plural of Bandage is 'Bandai'

Don't make me slap you.

Reno Blade, on 18 July 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Ghost heat works and is not really a problem for LL.

The sad part is you actually believe that.

Ghost Heat has effects, but it most certainly does not work. It did nothing to any of the weapons that were an issue. Regardless of PGIs back-pedaling denials, we all know what the goals of GH were.

• PPCs weren't limited by GH. They were limited by having the normal heat increased.
  
• AC20s simply don't care.
  
• Lasers are already in a bad enough spot, and don't need the nerfs.
  
• SRMs were only ever bad when the code was broken and they were doing more damage than intended, by a HUGE margin.
  
• LRMs pretty much ignore GH.
  
• All missiles have GH mechanics that simply make no sense at all.
  
• AC2s actually got the effect in reverse of what PGI claims GH is supposed to do, FFS. They nerfed the least effective way to play them, and now they've nerfed the entire weapon into obscurity, so being held down with GH is like a punishment for being amusing.

So tell me, aside from punishing people for trying to play weapons that are already disadvantaged, exactly what does GH do that could be described as "working"?

[XX Sulla XX]

So far looking over the thread I see no real downside to turning this on. I see people with other ideas of how to do it. But I see nothing where it hurts game play. So ya lets turn this on. Maybe a hot patch?

[Trauglodyte]

XX Sulla XX, on 17 July 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

I was listening to the new NGNG podcast and Russ said they already have the code in game and tested but turned off to make it so you can only fire two PPC or Gause at a time or a combo of each. I think they should turn it on. And yes just explain it as a limit on energy and charging. It is what I have been asking for a limit on long range front loaded pin point damage. This will cut it down to something much more balanced. It will only effect PPC and Gause. This along with the jump jet changes we have will go most of the way to balancing things. So lets just turn it on.

I know lots of people have other suggestions on how to do it. But this code is done and in the game. All they have to do is turn it on. So lets turn it on today

Let of know of exact ways you think this will help or hurt game play. I know there are other solutions people like better. But this is already coded and in the game not turned on. And we already have this kind of rule set with the limit on Gauss.

On the pod cast he starts talking about it around 15 minutes or a bit after.
http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=2220.0

Would be easier to just limit all gauss to fire at max levels of two and to prevent PPCs from firing within the 0.75s of charge up 0.75s after charge up. Like you said, power build up is a necessity so lets make it happen.

Deathlike, on 17 July 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

Unfortunately, I've been using PPC+AC10s quite a bit, so meh?

Get off of my build, y0, and go back to brawling. BRAWL BRAWL BRAWL!!!

Edited by Trauglodyte, 18 July 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Would be easier to just limit all gauss to fire at max levels of two and to prevent PPCs from firing within the 0.75s of charge up 0.75s after charge up. Like you said, power build up is a necessity so lets make it happen.

Not really since this is already coded and ready to turn on Not saying it is the best possible way but its done.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 18 July 2014 - 08:27 AM.

[Livewyr]

Rhent, on 18 July 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Sorry you have problem with logic, moving on.

Speaking of irony...

----------
People keep targeting weapon links, rather than look at the weapons themselves..

Gauss and PPCs.

Both have very long range.
Both have PP FLD damage.
Both have the same Rate of Fire as Short range weapons..

Until you figure out how to solve THAT problem, people are just going to find clever ways around your convoluted and arbitrary mechanics in order to use them in concert.

[Spheroid]

So you want to invalidate the stock configs of the Marauder-5S, Nightstar and Devestator? No thanks.

[FupDup]

More arbitrary, convoluted rules to sidestep the problem. The wheel of stupid never ends.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

FupDup, on 18 July 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

More arbitrary, convoluted rules to sidestep the problem. The wheel of stupid never ends.

See sig

[DONTOR]

XX Sulla XX, on 17 July 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

Exactly the goal is to keep front loaded long pin point damage at about 30. Just turning this on would go a long way to doing that. I really can not see a downside to it.

I would suggest that the delay only occurs when you have 2 gauss AND 2 ppcs, but no when you only have 2
+1 or 1+1.
1 Gauss and 1 ERPPC is a fair build and shouldnt be nerfed IMO.

[Hobgoblin I]

BOWMANGR, on 18 July 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

I assume you pilot assaults right?

Why yes, I do pilot assaults. I also pilot heavies...and mediums...and lights (locusts being one of them). As a fast little light I generally fear the sweep of laser boats more than the PPFLD as lasers seem to hit me far more often.

[Mystere]

XX Sulla XX, on 17 July 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

No I for one want snipers and also front loaded damage. I just want a good balance.

I agree. But, here's the rub. How exactly do you determine "balance"? People here keep noisily demanding "balance" without specifically defining what they mean by it. And by that, I mean they should give a quantifiable criteria (i.e. numbers, equations, models, etc.) on how to measure that the desired "balance" has been achieved. All I mostly see is questionable math and pseudo science.

[Hobgoblin I]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 July 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

So far looking over the thread I see no real downside to turning this on. I see people with other ideas of how to do it. But I see nothing where it hurts game play. So ya lets turn this on. Maybe a hot patch?

downside? making mechs less dangerous is a downside. Constantly changing the rules of the game is a downside. Having 75 convoluted workarounds instead of a functioning core system is a downside.
I just don't see the uproar of the PPC/gauss combo myself. The only times I have been one-shoted have been in my light mechs when I was standinf still, a cardinal sin. Having tried playing a Batlemaster with 2 PPC's and a gauss I found it far outgunned in brawls, which generally happens to the bigger, slower mechs that can field 2 PPC's and a gauss.

As far as convergence (i played tabletop but was never huge into the lore) is there anything that says each weapon has an accuator that moves it independently? Shouldn't torso mounted weapons just fire in a straight line while only arm mounted weapons (with lower arm accuators) actually converge to the center of the target reticle?

[Sephlock]

Ursh, on 17 July 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

So it won't affect IS meta-jumpsnipers.

Nothing to see here folks, working as intended.

Driving a Dire Wolf is high-risk, high-reward, particularly in the solo queue. Even with the super alpha, almost every gunner is going to struggle to hit a decent fast medium or light. I think the complaints about the direwolf alpha come mostly from the legions of heavy/assault mech players who are the intended target of the Dire Wolf.

It's too late. a PGIFIX™ is set in stone.

[Sephlock]

Hobgoblin I, on 18 July 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

downside? making mechs less dangerous is a downside. Constantly changing the rules of the game is a downside. Having 75 convoluted workarounds instead of a functioning core system is a downside.

Quote

I just don't see the uproar of the PPC/gauss combo myself. The only times I have been one-shoted have been in my light mechs when I was standinf still, a cardinal sin. Having tried playing a Batlemaster with 2 PPC's and a gauss I found it far outgunned in brawls, which generally happens to the bigger, slower mechs that can field 2 PPC's and a gauss.

No you don't get the whiners. They don't pilot using common sense. These are the guys that played through all 3 dooms with IDDQD activated.

Quote

As far as convergence (i played tabletop but was never huge into the lore) is there anything that says each weapon has an accuator that moves it independently? Shouldn't torso mounted weapons just fire in a straight line while only arm mounted weapons (with lower arm accuators) actually converge to the center of the target reticle?

Apparently that turned out to be too hard to program.

[Mcgral18]

meteorol, on 18 July 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Non instant convergence will never be in the game again. PGI will never add a CoF. As hard as it sounds, but deal with it. There is no reason to ask for it anymore. It won't happen. Period. That train is long gone, and PGI missed it. We got to face reality right now. Non instant convergence is out of discussion. Those band-aid fixes are the only fixes we will ever get.

PGI has already added multiple CoFs. I miss the old SRMs, where you could actually aim them.

LBx series have a CoF, as do the mentioned SRMs, MGs, Flamers. When you JJ you get a CoF.
Notice how most of those weapons are terrible? Yet the PP FLD long range weapons don't get any accuracy penalty at any range, and many have the same cooldown as the short range weapons!

If we keep PP FLD with magical instantaneous convergence, you can't have them fire at the same rate as the short range weapons, which deal less effective damage.

6-8 seconds should do it. Of course, this affects single mounted weapons. Is it worth the sacrifice?

[Livewyr]

No other game that I know of has a convergence setup, it is either pinpoint, or standard CoF. (And pinpoint is usually done as a constant, or achieved briefly by a hold breath type mechanic such as newer games' snipers.)

This is because most games do not have:
More than 2 weapons to be concerned with.
A range consideration on their weapons.
Different sized targets moving at different speeds. (An FPS equivalent of a light mech.)
Individual armor amounts with the ability to be killed while still having full armor on all but one spot.

They can simply do a standard CoF for each weapon that increases a standard way while moving, decreases a standard way while aiming, or increases in a standard way with successive automatic fire.

The only way I can see a cone of fire being implemented, is with Autocannons, and making them all burst (like clans).
This will of course ensure that PPC and Gauss reign supreme with no contest.

So what do you do with a weapon system that is hyper accurate at long range? The same they other shooter games do with their long-range hyper accurate weapons (Sniper and Marksman Rifles): You slow down their rate of fire relative to other weapons.

I have not played a game with a fully automatic sniper or marksman rifle. (Though someone else mentioned something like that in BF:BC- and it being completely overpowered.) I do not see why we need long range accurate weapons with the same RoF as short range weapons.