199 replies to this topic

[Blacksoul1987]

Mcgral18, on 18 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Let's calculate! What range does this theoretical fight start at? HGNs have wonderful shield arms, and a dead ST to absorb lots of incoming fire. 204 damage worth, for both the LT and the LA. Plus the ~160 of the CT, plus whenever you choose to sacrifice the right side for the same ~200 damage buffer.

Stalker also has wonderful hitboxes, but no shield arms. ~100 for a ST, so in just 200 damage you can be sticked. 50% damage reduction from a destroyed ST to the CT, though. Stalkers are good at that.

MLs deal a fraction of 1 damage at 500M, while the 2 UAC5, 2 PPC HGN will still be doing max damage. It's possible to leg the stalker before you even reach the optimal 270M range, with only 108 IS+A per leg.

Of course, if the fight magically starts at 300M, the stalker has a fair chance of winning, but by no means a guarantee.



In an amazing testing attempt, I brought 3xSRM6+A to the Awesome in the Forest Colony Testing Grounds.

It hit all 3 torsi at 20M. A leg and arm got hit every now and then as well. At 20M, with 18 SRMs. That CoF starts very quickly, but stays nearly parallel after than initial spread.

now you are referring to a dual uac5 hgn. we were discussing gauss. the dual uac can stand up in a brawl and it is why I prefer ac's on my dragonslayer. the ac's make for a better brawler than gauss cause you get much higher dps.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mystere, on 18 July 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Then get rid of automatic convergence entirely.

Make each head and torso weapon fire straight forcing the player to aim weapons relative to the reticule. Then make all arm weapons have a fixed convergence set manually. Heck, why not even let left and right arm weapons be aimed separately if the user so desires and has the equipment capable of doing so.

while i can see the logic in that, the end result would be a gigantic nerf to mechs with primarily torso mounted weapons, and a gigantic buff to ones with all arm weapons.. to be honest, in that world.. id only play the mechs with good arm hardpoints.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 18 July 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

while i can see the logic in that, the end result would be a gigantic nerf to mechs with primarily torso mounted weapons, and a gigantic buff to ones with all arm weapons.. to be honest, in that world.. id only play the mechs with good arm hardpoints.

Exactly. One reason I would like to have this more targeted fix turned on.

[Mcgral18]

Blacksoul1987, on 18 July 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

now you are referring to a dual uac5 hgn. we were discussing gauss. the dual uac can stand up in a brawl and it is why I prefer ac's on my dragonslayer. the ac's make for a better brawler than gauss cause you get much higher dps.

Alright, more alpha damage, though corner peeking might not be such an advantage against a short range stalker.

HGN 732 with 3 PPCs and a Gauss? It will be a tad slower, but since JJs are worthless you now only need one for bunny hopping. So, a STD300 fits.

Of course, you could drop down to 2 PPCs, or even ERPPCs and 7 extra heatsinks, or a bigger engine.

Either build has over twice the effective range, and that again for max range. The question is whether the Stalker can close or not. It might be a tad faster than the 3PPC version, though they would be fairly similar in speed for other builds.


And is the proposed Gauss/PPC 2 limit in place for this theoretical fight? If so, the 3 PPC+Gauss would be hot, but pretty effective. 25+20 for quite a few volleys.

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 July 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

Mcgral18, on 18 July 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Alright, more alpha damage, though corner peeking might not be such an advantage against a short range stalker.

HGN 732 with 3 PPCs and a Gauss? It will be a tad slower, but since JJs are worthless you now only need one for bunny hopping. So, a STD300 fits.

Of course, you could drop down to 2 PPCs, or even ERPPCs and 7 extra heatsinks, or a bigger engine.

Either build has over twice the effective range, and that again for max range. The question is whether the Stalker can close or not. It might be a tad faster than the 3PPC version, though they would be fairly similar in speed for other builds.

it is very well known that a very slow sniper will annihilate a very slow brawler if they start at long range if the stalker was able close 600m distance and still win that would be pretty ****** wouldn't it? slow short ranged assault mechs are urban combat mechs. Ask pgi to allow you to select a mech for the map instead of trying to instagib snipers please. I mean if we are gonna use silly arguments like this why is it that my ppc jenner gets smashed by a 6ml jenner..........NERF BRAWLER LIGHTS NOW!

[Joseph Mallan]

XX Sulla XX, on 17 July 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

I was listening to the new NGNG podcast and Russ said they already have the code in game and tested but turned off to make it so you can only fire two PPC or Gause at a time or a combo of each. I think they should turn it on. And yes just explain it as a limit on energy and charging. It is what I have been asking for a limit on long range front loaded pin point damage. This will cut it down to something much more balanced. It will only effect PPC and Gause. This along with the jump jet changes we have will go most of the way to balancing things. So lets just turn it on.

I know lots of people have other suggestions on how to do it. But this code is done and in the game. All they have to do is turn it on. So lets turn it on today

Let of know of exact ways you think this will help or hurt game play. I know there are other solutions people like better. But this is already coded and in the game not turned on. And we already have this kind of rule set with the limit on Gauss.

On the pod cast he starts talking about it around 15 minutes or a bit after.
http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=2220.0

Sulla I normally like and agree with what you write, but I just will not support a rule that gimps players who enjoy power builds. It is just weak.

[Blacksoul1987]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Sulla I normally like and agree with what you write, but I just will not support a rule that gimps players who enjoy power builds. It is just weak.

your power builds gimp players that enjoy light mechs. It is just weak.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Sulla I normally like and agree with what you write, but I just will not support a rule that gimps players who enjoy power builds. It is just weak.

Well glad you agree with me most of the time. I believe that means you are logical and wise haha And honestly I like power builds and I think we need snipers. But even with nerfs to the Highlander, Victor and nerfs of fall damage and JJs etc there is just to much upside to long range front loaded pin point damage. Personally I think turning this on and then fixing the Victor twist and Highlander JJs would help a lot. Maybe turning off some other nerfs. Like I said I want jump snipers/snipers to be good and viable but just not by far the best way to play at the top level. And its not like it would make snipers terrible. You would still hae 30 pin front loaded damage at long range with low risk. It would just give mid range and brawler mechs a better chance of getting to the sniper. And make the exchange more skill based.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 18 July 2014 - 11:49 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

I would like to see no more than 20 pts of pp fld allowed in the game. Yeah, that's extreme... but whatever. I'd rather see game diversity than an arms race to a single set of specific things being dominant.

In fact, dueling with rules that allow no more than 20 pts of pp fld is actually quite fun. The game dynamics change, dramatically. Surprisingly... in a duel...

Pulse lasers are superior.
SRMs are okay but still spread way too much to be the go-to weapon.
Autocannons have huge advantages.

PPCs aren't so bad in a duel if you use them as pairs but if you're slow, someone can close the gap on you and it is over. So, to use PPCs in a duel, the 'mech has to be fast or both of them have to be slow enough that you can do damage before the close. Once the close happens, whatever can fire the most often, with greatest accuracy and least spread wins if both players are equally skilled.

There's a lot more to it than that, of course. Otherwise dueling wouldn't be so fun.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 18 July 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Hobgoblin I]

Mcgral18, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Not if the PPC Gauss pilot has any sense to torso twist. Your damage will be spread across 3-4 components, or more if he has JJs.

His damage at that short range will all hit the same component. If he's patient, they will always hit your CT at short range. You can't retaliate with spread damage all over his Ct, LT, RT, arms, without taking whichever PP FLD alpha to your ST or CT, whatever he chooses to destroy first.


Spread damage is inferior, and yet they have the same cooldown, yet less than 25% of the range.

I like how these PPC Gauss pilots have the magical ability to torso twist and the rest fo us don't. It is also funny how I am somehow not allowed to hold my shot until he turns to fire at me, thus landing most of my damage on his center torso.

Medium laser and SRM 4's do not have the same cooldown as PPC's. It is a full 1 sec less for the lasers and srm 4's. The SRM 6's have the same 4 sec cooldown as the PPC's but less than the gauss due to the .75 sec charge time. Get your facts right next time please.

My stalker has a 73 point alpha with 19 2X heatsinks to keep firing...let him be patient...please! With 90 armor in my center torso I'll laugh if he holds his fire waiting on a chance to hit it. And just how much of the 73 point alpha do you think he will be able to turn away from? You need to realize people can also have skill in loadouts beyond the PPC/gauss.

[Hobgoblin I]

Livewyr, on 18 July 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I treat SRM/ML Stalkers regularly that way... (Weapons on one side, give it he other while I am on recycle or cooling.)

And I regularly wait for dragonslayers to turn to fire at me before I unload. Even the very twisty jumpy ones have to look at you to shoot...that's when they die.

[Joseph Mallan]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 July 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Well glad you agree with me most of the time. I believe that means you are logical and wise haha And honestly I like power builds and I think we need snipers. But even with nerfs to the Highlander, Victor and nerfs of fall damage and JJs etc there is just to much upside to long range front loaded pin point damage. Personally I think turning this on and then fixing the Victor twist and Highlander JJs would help a lot. Maybe turning off some other nerfs. Like I said I want jump snipers/snipers to be good and viable but just not by far the best way to play at the top level. And its not like it would make snipers terrible. You would still hae 30 pin front loaded damage at long range with low risk. It would just give mid range and brawler mechs a better chance of getting to the sniper. And make the exchange more skill based.

Then we need to remove teh whole Pin Point Alpha. It is not realistic, and it breaks the game. I used to have a 94 point Alpha but nobody complained cause it wasn't pin point, It hurt like Hel, but not crazy so.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 July 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Hobgoblin I]

bluepiglet, on 18 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Sure, if the opponents does not twist torso around to absorb your damage, while he utilizing his high alpha damage to tear off your limbs away one piece at a time.

You comment is like saying someone can kill an Atlas with a single small laser, because you know, the other guy might be completely blind....

And your comment suggests that the non PPC/Gauss mech can neither twist nor aim.

Edited by Hobgoblin I, 18 July 2014 - 12:52 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Blacksoul1987, on 18 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

your power builds gimp players that enjoy light mechs. It is just weak.

Light Mechs are meant to be fragile when swatted with heavy weapons. It is the nature of things. Lights give up a measure of durability to be nimble and fast. It is the natural order. If you die in lights like I do, then you are not a light Pilot and should reevaluate your place in the game.

[Mcgral18]

Hobgoblin I, on 18 July 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I like how these PPC Gauss pilots have the magical ability to torso twist and the rest fo us don't. It is also funny how I am somehow not allowed to hold my shot until he turns to fire at me, thus landing most of my damage on his center torso.

Medium laser and SRM 4's do not have the same cooldown as PPC's. It is a full 1 sec less for the lasers and srm 4's. The SRM 6's have the same 4 sec cooldown as the PPC's but less than the gauss due to the .75 sec charge time. Get your facts right next time please.

My stalker has a 73 point alpha with 19 2X heatsinks to keep firing...let him be patient...please! With 90 armor in my center torso I'll laugh if he holds his fire waiting on a chance to hit it. And just how much of the 73 point alpha do you think he will be able to turn away from? You need to realize people can also have skill in loadouts beyond the PPC/gauss.

You do realize MLs are at 4 seconds? 3+1. SRM4s are at 3 seconds, SRM6s are at 4. You never specified.

You also have half the range, and lack shield arms. Stalker side torsos are wonderful for sword and board loadouts, although with that many weapons, you'll be down to 50% firepower if you do that for too long. HGN is truly sword and board.

Both have 50% damage reduction to CT when they lose a ST.


And please go to the testing grounds and examine SRM spread. Try it at all ranges on the Awesome. 250M, 200M, 150M 100M and then go all the way to 20M and 10M.

Post the results of the spread...


Now try those again with the PPCs and Gauss. Notice how one hits every torso, sometimes an arm or leg even. While the PPCs and Gauss will always hit what you are aiming for (on a stationary mech, of course.) This stops at 90M unless you have ERPPCs.

This desync will help separate some of that. It wouldn't affect the better synced PPCs+(u)AC5 builds though. It hurts the Clans more than the IS.

Nerfing long range weapon cooldowns, or buffing short range weapons would have a similar effect, where long range weapons aren't equal, or even superior, to short range loadouts under 300M.

[Mister Blastman]

Hobgoblin I, on 18 July 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

My stalker has a 73 point alpha with 19 2X heatsinks to keep firing...let him be patient...please! With 90 armor in my center torso I'll laugh if he holds his fire waiting on a chance to hit it. And just how much of the 73 point alpha do you think he will be able to turn away from? You need to realize people can also have skill in loadouts beyond the PPC/gauss.

All that is easy to say if you pretend to be 100 meters from him. What happens when you are 500, 600... 700? I'll tell you what does. You lose one side torso. Then you lose the next. Then you are a funny looking stick figure lumbering around with nothing to do.

I think you need to play the game some more before you indirectly accuse McGral of having no skill.

[Sephlock]

Mister Blastman, on 18 July 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

All that is easy to say if you pretend to be 100 meters from him. What happens when you are 500, 600... 700? I'll tell you what does. You lose one side torso. Then you lose the next. Then you are a funny looking stick figure lumbering around with nothing to do.

But according to the Centurion lovers that state is one of transcendental awesome- you instantly become transformed into an immortal god of war.

Also, this thread has been trumped.

[Felio]

MischiefSC, on 17 July 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

The goal is to keep PPFLD hits to 30-35pts. 50 crosses a threshold that's hard to justify.

Why should FLD have an equal or higher threshold than DOT? Two large lasers is 18, six medium lasers is 30.

PPCs are FLD pinpoint, and they are limited to two, for 20 damage.

Gauss has the fastest projectile in the game, yet it is the exception to all the rules for limiting damage.

[Hobgoblin I]

Mcgral18, on 18 July 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

You do realize MLs are at 4 seconds? 3+1. SRM4s are at 3 seconds, SRM6s are at 4. You never specified.

You also have half the range, and lack shield arms. Stalker side torsos are wonderful for sword and board loadouts, although with that many weapons, you'll be down to 50% firepower if you do that for too long. HGN is truly sword and board.

Both have 50% damage reduction to CT when they lose a ST.


And please go to the testing grounds and examine SRM spread. Try it at all ranges on the Awesome. 250M, 200M, 150M 100M and then go all the way to 20M and 10M.

Post the results of the spread...


Now try those again with the PPCs and Gauss. Notice how one hits every torso, sometimes an arm or leg even. While the PPCs and Gauss will always hit what you are aiming for (on a stationary mech, of course.) This stops at 90M unless you have ERPPCs.

This desync will help separate some of that. It wouldn't affect the better synced PPCs+(u)AC5 builds though. It hurts the Clans more than the IS.

Nerfing long range weapon cooldowns, or buffing short range weapons would have a similar effect, where long range weapons aren't equal, or even superior, to short range loadouts under 300M.

The range isn't the issue. I chose a short range build. Frontloaded pinpoint or LRM I would be helpless at range.

Going to the testing ground wouldn't help either. I carry 6 med lasers...I am fairly confident I can hold them to one location on a stationary target. Right there is 30 of the 35 opposing damage we were talking about.

I constantly do forget the beam duration in cycle time...lol

The desynch already happened with the charge time and weapon speed changes. At short range they become meaningless, but the you can always close to within the 90m PPC minimum.

The fact is I believe I can and have kept more than 35 points of my 73 point alpha on location in these instances. The long range weapons already suffer from weight and/or heat restrictions plus slot size. When looked at in the context of how they fit into BUILD, I don't see them as being equal to or superior to short range weapons in a brawl.

[Hobgoblin I]

Mister Blastman, on 18 July 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

All that is easy to say if you pretend to be 100 meters from him. What happens when you are 500, 600... 700? I'll tell you what does. You lose one side torso. Then you lose the next. Then you are a funny looking stick figure lumbering around with nothing to do.

I think you need to play the game some more before you indirectly accuse McGral of having no skill.

I think you need to play the game more mister blastman, and maybe also practice your reading skills. I already said if a fight begins at say 900m that I am dead. This would be why I don't walk around out in the open shouting my location and asking to be sniped. If I get hit by a snpier, I change my orientation and look for cover. Nowhere did I accuse McGral of not having skill, I opposed his idea that non PPC/gauss players couldn't have skill. You, however I accuse of making innane posts.