46 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

First off, let's get a couple of things out of the way:

1. Clan 'mechs are SUPPOSED to be OP, according to canon. Really, WAY OP.

2. The ONLY thing OP about the Clan 'mechs is their weapons, (combined with the game breaking mechanic of instant perfect pinpoint convergence + 'mech components)

Therefore, I propose that for the time being (invasion timeline) LET the Clans be OP! Have fun playing against or for them, knowing they are (in weapons only) OP. Accept it. Embrace it. Deal with it.

I know that some will scream "P2W!!!!", but, honestly, win WHAT, exactly? We do not even have a game yet.

Eventually, however, there needs to be balance. It would be better (IMO) if that balance were within the lore.

Simple answer: Mixtech. At least as far as weapons are concerned.

It might be necessary to allow armor/engine customization on Clan mechs at that time, IDK, it is something to be seen.

It is an extremely easy fix that requires almost no effort on PGI's part, it doesn't have to be implemented right away (although a timeline jump would not be a bad idea), and there is no risk of 'mechs becoming obsolete.

[Gyrok]

The issue lies in the fact that the only clan weapons that are OP are the same ones that are OP in the IS with the same stats basically.

PP FLD is OP. Clan tech/chassis themselves are NOT OP.

[Hotthedd]

Pretty much what I said.

If anyone can (eventually) field the weapons, however, it would equalize the playing field.

[Bobzilla]

Hotthedd, on 17 July 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Pretty much what I said.

If anyone can (eventually) field the weapons, however, it would equalize the playing field.

But a mix of IS and Clan on the same team is a balance in itself. We need a bunch of numbers for IS vs Clans 12v12 to see if any changes are needed. Some stats could give a general idea of how it's going to shake down when CW hits, but seeing as it's mixed, Clans are loading out to fight other Clans as well as IS, which will change if it's just vs IS. They should start the divide before CW otherwise (if there is any balance problem) CW will be lopsided.

[FupDup]

Seeing how one of the primary balancing mechanisms of Clan tech is the lack of Omnimech customization...I'm gonna have to say lolno. The hardwired weaknesses of the Omnis help counteract the strengths of the guns...if you let fully customizable IS battlemechs use Clan guns, it would be game over man. Game. Over. Nobody would use a Clan Omnimech again, because they would just be inferior to IS mechs totting Clan gear.

In summary, the current balance looks *mostly* like this:

IS = Inferior guns on superior platforms
Clans = Superior guns on inferior platforms

...With exceptions on both sides, of course.

------

If you let the Omnis customize all their things, then they would basically feel like reskinned battlemechs rather than a whole separate tech tree.

Edited by FupDup, 17 July 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

FupDup, on 17 July 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Seeing how one of the primary balancing mechanisms of Clan tech is the lack of Omnimech customization...I'm gonna have to say lolno. The hardwired weaknesses of the Omnis help counteract the strengths of the guns...if you let fully customizable IS battlemechs use Clan guns, it would be game over man. Game. Over. Nobody would use a Clan Omnimech again, because they would just be inferior to IS mechs totting Clan gear.

Yep.

MW4 fixed this with set hard point sizes, so that if you wanted a certain speed + JJ + load out, you would need to pick the chassis that could take it. There was some redundancy, and most mechs moved generally the same. MWO has spent much more time customizing the movement of mechs as their specialty. MixTech would make IS mechs superior in every way.

[Zolaz]

Clans balanced ... there you go it is fixed. You are welcome.

[Marak Varn]

All I will add is that if you were to try Stock Inner Sphere vs Stock Clans, you would find that the clans are just as over powered as the lore says they should be. The only reason it's balanced is that we're all piloting Super NAIS, team Banzia, Solaris spec IS mechs that don't exist in the lore.

Send a real ON1-K up against a Timby and I think you'll see all the stomping you could want.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Marak Varn, on 17 July 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

All I will add is that if you were to try Stock Inner Sphere vs Stock Clans, you would find that the clans are just as over powered as the lore says they should be. The only reason it's balanced is that we're all piloting Super NAIS, team Banzia, Solaris spec IS mechs that don't exist in the lore.

Send a real ON1-K up against a Timby and I think you'll see all the stomping you could want.

It really has nothing to do with balance but it is kind of interesting that our IS mechs are probably more optimized than the "Clan buster" stuff that ComStar used on Tukayyid.

[Kirtanus]

i just leave it here. OP proof

[Ph30nix]

i dont get why people keep saying the IS mechs and weapons are completely inferior to the clan mechs and weapons.

the only true 100% advantage the clan has over the IS is the fact their weapons are lighter and take up less room
every other "advantage" has been mitigated and countered by some other draw back
their laser weapons have much longer burn times
their ballistics are slightly DoT damage
their LRM's fire in a stream (greatly increases effectiveness of AMS)
if the IS weapons were the same weight as the clan weapons then IS mechs would be the GODS of the battlefield and be hands down OP.

The clan weapon weights though are still slightly countered by # of hardpoints + heat system + engine lock
what good is have 12+ weapons if you cant even fire them all. After a few of the weapons anything more just becomes backup or situational weapons.

Also if Beam weapons werent so gimped compared to ballistic IS would be slightly better off as well.

[Mcgral18]

You want things truly OP? You allow mixtech.

It's as simple as that. The Shadowhawk has the same tonnage available as the Timberwolf at similar speeds. SRM24+2ERLL? With max JJs on a 55 tonner.

GGclose

[Innocent]

The only way i can see mixtech working would be to make it similar to IS endo/FF mechanics. You select a check box for clan tech. It then fixes a PGI specified engine for that chassis and some equipment that will be locked. You can then mount clan weapons (and only clan weapons) to the chassis. If you allow actual mixed clan/IS weapons loadout then you would need to do the same for clan mechs. This would result in murder machines that would make everything else unplayable (clan ER lasers and missiles with IS PPCs and ACs)

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 17 July 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

You want things truly OP? You allow mixtech.

It's as simple as that. The Shadowhawk has the same tonnage available as the Timberwolf at similar speeds. SRM24+2ERLL? With max JJs on a 55 tonner.

GGclose

Speaking of mixtech, there are actually a few mixtech mechs in BT in the far future that are REALLY crazy. Here's the Wulfen, for example.



Equipment:
Mass: 30 tons
Armor: Maxed out Stealth Armor
Engine: XXL300 (Clan, takes up 4 critslots per side torso)
Top speed in MWO: 178.2 kph (after speed twerk)
Accessories: XL Gyro, Endo Steel, ECM
Pod space: 10 tons
Year availability: 3137

It's a light mech that could potentially stand up to the mighty Arctic Cheetah...too bad it's also a Clan mech (that uses a few IS components). The hardpoints, however, kind of suck on most variants (1 ballistic + 1 missile on the Prime = lolololololol). It does, however, get a few decent variants and even a JJ variant.

Edited by FupDup, 17 July 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[Davers]

In some stock mech scrimmages it seems 10v12 500 tons to 800 tons was pretty balanced. So yes, against the stock mechs the Clans faced they were very OP. Against fully upgraded IS mechs, not so.

[Hotthedd]

Letting Clan mechs adjust armor and engine size could also happen.

I am looking at the 2055+ timeline, if I was not clear on that before.



P.S. I would befine to leave Clan/I.S. balance alone if PGI would fix the instant pinpoint perfect convergence alpha issue, but that will never happen.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Hotthedd, on 17 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Letting Clan mechs adjust armor and engine size could also happen.

We can adjust armor. Allowing us to adjusting the engine would be a bad idea.

[Hotthedd]

Rouken, on 17 July 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

We can adjust armor. Allowing us to adjusting the engine would be a bad idea.

Even with limitations? Same as I.S. 'mechs...

[Joseph Mallan]

Hotthedd, on 17 July 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Even with limitations? Same as I.S. 'mechs...

Even with that. Now once you get second line mechs you Clanners can mod everything just like us Spheroids.

[Hotthedd]

Fair enough.

Wiser minds than mine have spoken.

I can't wait to see PGI's ham-handed, knee-jerk series of balance fixes, counter-fixes, counter counter fixes, and rollbacks....