301 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Vassago Rain, on 19 July 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Clans cost money and offer a very real, very serious advantage. There has never been a game where you can exchange money to simply win. Even when you buy a hack suite for counter-strike, you are still required to actually click and interact with the game to farm your kills.

Clans are P2W.

I can't use c-bills to get a heavy mech that moves as fast as stock lights, tanks damage like an assault, jumps like a 55 tonner, and carries more guns than a 100 tonner.

Funny enough, when we group in the group queue, we stomp a lot of teams, we even do it in IS mechs against clan mechs!

As a matter of fact, someone in the group queue the other evening saw our 10 man and said "Clan mechs are P2W", then, to their shock and horror, we were all in IS mechs practicing for an upcoming tourney and rolled their 10 clan mechs 12-0.

In the chat somebody typed "DS and EMBER are P2W, the clan mechs you drove did not get you the win....teamwork and skill are OP. Mechs are not..."

Which is the brutally unadulterated truth.

THERE IS NO BOOGEYMAN. Top tier teams can line up in mechs of their choice IS or Clan and stomp teams. Are some clan mechs good? Sure...better than the DS? Not really, and the lights are certainly not better than Jenners, Ravens, and Embers...

There is no P2W in the clans. There is pay to get it now...sure...call that a paywall or whatever you want...but no clan mech is an "I win button". In fact, my 2 highest KDR chassis in the clan mechs are Warhawks and Dire Wolves...the TW is actually about on par with my Stormcrows and is the 4th best clan chassis I own...would anyone sit and say the Warhawk is P2W? Nope...so how is it my best chassis?

Hmm...interesting...the mech everyone thinks is P2W is good, but not the best performing mech of the bunch...

But that mech is P2W right?

I call B.S. I have seen many Victors take down TWs, and I consider the VTR to be the direct competition to the TW in the IS. The 2 are reasonably close in terms of capability, weapons payloads and speeds.

Not a P2W issue at all...everyone complaining can look in the mirror and realize clan mechs are not the boogeyman...they are just different.

[Khushrenada]

P2w is not exactely an "i win"-button and it never was or will be.

the P2w situation is simply that you pay money to have an advantage over people that doesn`t pay it. and right now thats the simply fact here.
it doesn`t matter, that really good pilots are able to defeat a clan mech in an IS mech 1vs1, cause that will always be the case. lights piloted by good pilots can bring down an atlas, which has totally nothing to do with P2w.

besides in matches group vs group (i assume you didn`t talk about stomping a random bunch of people with your team and beeing proud of that) it will always come down to the lvl of skill.
your argument would be only valid if you would be playing against people of eaqual skill, defeating them while your group uses IS mechs and the other group uses clan mechs.

i also have lately taken down a TW with my thunderbolt in 1v1, but i guess that won`t happen soon again (died seconds after, when a stormcrow sneaked up behind me). just because it happens once a while doesn`t mean they are equal.

a lot of clan mechs go down in matches, since they get prioritzed at targetting, since many people know that they are dangerous, so seeing a lot of them die doesn`t mean they perform on even ground to IS mechs.
if you put pilots of equal skill in a 1vs1 i bet that the clan mechs will win 70% of the matches.

Gyrok, on 27 July 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

There is no P2W in the clans. There is pay to get it now...sure...call that a paywall or whatever you want...but no clan mech is an "I win button". In fact, my 2 highest KDR chassis in the clan mechs are Warhawks and Dire Wolves...the TW is actually about on par with my Stormcrows and is the 4th best clan chassis I own...would anyone sit and say the Warhawk is P2W? Nope...so how is it my best chassis?

Hmm...interesting...the mech everyone thinks is P2W is good, but not the best performing mech of the bunch...

i don`t really get your point.
i am not talking about one specific mech, sure the TW is standing out in its weight class, but the DW and the WH equally more powerfull than their IS counter parts.
that those 2 mechs have your highest K/D of your clan mechs make sense, since their alpha potential outperformes any other mech out there.
if i get unlucky and end up in the fire cone of a DW i am gonna die faster than to any other mech out there. you simply can`t build anything equal in firepower with the IS hardpoint restrictions (maybe even the weapon load capacity would already make it impossible).

Edited by Khushrenada, 27 July 2014 - 11:41 AM.

[Tripzter]

MeiSooHaityu, on 19 July 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

\P2W implies that you need to have a Clan mech to do well in combat and IS mechs are now useless

Actually "Pay to Win" implies that you get an advantage by paying real money that you cannot get using in game credits which is exactly what clan mechs are. They have overpowered weapons in comparison to the regular weapons. The Clan mechs are the exact definition of "Pay to Win".

Many of you are confused thinking that it's a magical "I Win" button, no not at all, pay to win refers only to having something that is little better than it's in game money counter part.

Edited by Tripzter, 27 July 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tripzter, on 27 July 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Actually "Pay to Win" implies that you get an advantage by paying real money that you cannot get using in game credits which is exactly what clan mechs are. They have overpowered weapons in comparison to the regular weapons. The Clan mechs are the exact definition of "Pay to Win".

Many of you are confused thinking that it's a magical "I Win" button, no not at all, pay to win refers only to having something that is little better than it's in game money counter part.

And as we are not actually playing the game yet, How can it be pay to win?

[Tripzter]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 July 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

And as we are not actually playing the game yet, How can it be pay to win?

Huh? Explain what you mean by that because it makes no sense.

Edited by Tripzter, 27 July 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Tripzter, on 27 July 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Actually "Pay to Win" implies that you get an advantage by paying real money that you cannot get using in game credits which is exactly what clan mechs are. They have overpowered weapons in comparison to the regular weapons. The Clan mechs are the exact definition of "Pay to Win".

Many of you are confused thinking that it's a magical "I Win" button, no not at all, pay to win refers only to having something that is little better than it's in game money counter part.

Well, I can't really see that point of view.

Most Clan weapons have some disadvantage associated with them, and some IS weapons are outright better.

ERLL is a nice example. Less than 2 extra damage, and it takes 1.2 seconds to deal the same damage as the isLL does in 1 second. Same heat but more range than the isERLL. Situationally can be better or worse than the isLL. Deals damage slower, but at longer range.

isACs are outright better than their Clan counterparts.

ERML is better than isML, as are SRMs. That can be balanced around. Less heat for the isML, back to it's un-nerfed stats. isSRMs can be given Dead-Fire warheads with more payload.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tripzter, on 27 July 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

Huh? Explain what you mean by that because it makes no sense.

What Planet are you protecting?
Do you drop with or without Clanners?
Are you a Solaris 7 Gladiator? Whats your standing? In what Arena bracket?

Until you have a contract to fight for a House on A planet you are not playing the game, you are merely testing the combat engine..

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 July 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[Tripzter]

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Well, I can't really see that point of view.

Most Clan weapons have some disadvantage associated with them, and some IS weapons are outright better.

ERLL is a nice example. Less than 2 extra damage, and it takes 1.2 seconds to deal the same damage as the isLL does in 1 second. Same heat but more range than the isERLL. Situationally can be better or worse than the isLL. Deals damage slower, but at longer range.

isACs are outright better than their Clan counterparts.

ERML is better than isML, as are SRMs. That can be balanced around. Less heat for the isML, back to it's un-nerfed stats. isSRMs can be given Dead-Fire warheads with more payload.

Take a look at slots and weight as well.

[Mcgral18]

Tripzter, on 27 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Take a look at slots and weight as well.

Yep, and look at all the free crit slots on this mech!

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=175

Even the Timberwolf is restricted from large ballistics in the ST, but his arm is able to mount them.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=163


Many Clan mechs don't have the crit slots, or tonnage available. Nova can't mount any large ballistic in an ST because it's missing 6 slots from the XL and 2 hardwired DHS. The paltry 15.5 tons of pod space makes that worse. Endo would be nice for many builds, as would moving those hardwired heatsinks around.

Dire Whale doesn't have those specific concerns...but it's a dire whale.

So, look at the mechs as well as the weapons. Mechs are almost outright worse, with 2 mechs having good hitboxes? cXL engine is their saving grace.


Sure, some outliers for weapons and mechs, which will hopefully be dealt with in time. Same for the IS.

[Tripzter]

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Yep, and look at all the free crit slots on this mech!

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=175

Even the Timberwolf is restricted from large ballistics in the ST, but his arm is able to mount them.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=163


Many Clan mechs don't have the crit slots, or tonnage available. Nova can't mount any large ballistic in an ST because it's missing 6 slots from the XL and 2 hardwired DHS. The paltry 15.5 tons of pod space makes that worse. Endo would be nice for many builds, as would moving those hardwired heatsinks around.

Dire Whale doesn't have those specific concerns...but it's a dire whale.

So, look at the mechs as well as the weapons. Mechs are almost outright worse, with 2 mechs having good hitboxes? cXL engine is their saving grace.


Sure, some outliers for weapons and mechs, which will hopefully be dealt with in time. Same for the IS.

You want your cake and to eat it too.. you want to mount the heaviest weapons on a mech with +80kmh top speed

Edited by Tripzter, 27 July 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[Vlaitor]

Better weaponery, Omnipods, better heatsink, targeting systems, more ammo, better engines.

Anyone arguing those are lost causes.

Clan mechs is easy mode.

I play my 9 clan mechs with such performance it's almost sad. No, no lrm boats.

[divinedisclaimer]

If you're firing at Timber Wolves, there's something you need to know: they usually only have ~45 side torso armor, and those big shoulders (the part that sticks up where missile boxes would be if they were used) is all side-torso.

People need to get used to the idea of killing them with brute force. It's easy to land a hit on their side, do it. Don't waste your day hitting a wolf with CT shots unless he's already open or you have an otherwise insane 40+ damage potential. The reason for this is simple, the moment he's open CT he's just going to make you start working on his sides. Half a wolf is a lot less threatening.

[MischiefSC]

Joe, are you really going with 'Its still in beta'?

Joseph Mallan, on 27 July 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

What Planet are you protecting?
Do you drop with or without Clanners?
Are you a Solaris 7 Gladiator? Whats your standing? In what Arena bracket?

Until you have a contract to fight for a House on A planet you are not playing the game, you are merely testing the combat engine..

[Runenstahl]

I don't like the clans. I will never buy one (not even for C-Bills). When the clans where introduced I feared that things might go to hell with the balancing.

Many of my friends immediately bought clan-mechs and where quick to assure me that they are NOT any better. I was skeptical (if they're not better, why did you all buy them ?).

I played on and on and now (quite a bit later) I finally agree. Clans are indeed NOT op. They work a bit differently and you have to take this into account for your tactics. But once you do they are not more dangerous then IS mechs.

Eventually we'll be able to buy them with ingame money, but I don't see any need. My beloved IS-mechs work just fine against them. Right now it feels like another excuse to shout out when you loose a game:

Just saw it this morning. The last mech on our team was a spider... he ran up to a Direwolf, stood in front of it (yes, stood !) and fired all his puny little weapons (a spider, mind you). To his surprise the DW blow him to bits... his last statement before he disconnected: "This sucks, clans mechs are pay to win !". Seriously ? Like an IS heavy or assault would NOT have killed him just as easily if he behaved like this.

It might not reflect the canon, but right now clans have the upper hand in overall damage while IS mechs have higher pin-point damage and speed on their side. Especially with lights and fast mediums you can kill clans mechs rather easily in close combat. In long range combat the clans have the advantage if IS mechs just want to duke it out. If the IS-mechs pop out a salvo and retreat back into cover however the clan weapons will not be able to hold up against them. And AMS works much better against the long spread of Clan LRM's (not mention giving you more time to reach cover).

Yes, sometimes it will seem like this or that clan mech is OP. But if you pay objective attention you will notice that the same is true for IS mechs too.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 27 July 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Joe, are you really going with 'Its still in beta'?

No I am going with we are not playing the game yet. Or have you captured a planet I didn't hear about?

[Mavairo]

MischiefSC, on 27 July 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Joe, are you really going with 'Its still in beta'?

One could argue that this is still VERY early beta...

[Mcgral18]

Vlaitor, on 27 July 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Better weaponery, Omnipods, better heatsink, targeting systems, more ammo, better engines.

Anyone arguing those are lost causes.

Clan mechs is easy mode.

I play my 9 clan mechs with such performance it's almost sad. No, no lrm boats.

Heatsinks are identical in performance, with one less crit slot. Very handy.

More ammo? Dafuq? The numbers are identical. 7 shots for the AC20. 35 shots for the UAC20 which fires in 5 round bursts 5*7=35.

Better weaponry? Some are, others are worthless. Same as IS, really. Though different ones are better for the IS or Clan. IS has the ACs, Clans have SRMs, a select few lasers. IS have pulse lasers...but those aren't very good weapons period.


Clans spread lots of damage compared to the IS, takes alot more damage to get a kill against a competent opponents. The underhive melts to the Clans, though.

As an aside, lurm boats are pretty terrible. They spread damage more than MGs.

Tripzter, on 27 July 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

You want your cake and to eat it too.. you want to mount the heaviest weapons on a mech with +80kmh top speed

If only there was a good jumping chassis that could mount a pair of Gauss rifles, ammo and JJs the Clans could use. The IS has the only chassis that can do that so far; semi effectively at any rate.

Timby could with a smaller engine, but it has the big XL375, which costs it 26.5 tons to mount. Over a third of its weight in engine, and a similar amount for weapons, 27.5. Compared to my Cataphracts which can mount over 40 tons of weapons, with JJs, it can still melt through those Clans without much issue.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 July 2014 - 04:08 PM.

[hercules1981]

2 crit slot double heat sinks, lighter weapons with less crit slots, Xl engines that need both sides blown up to be killed, and 7 crit slot endo steel and ff if I remember correctly. How is this not pay to win for the moment at least. No one would rather have 3 crit slot doubles, a weapon of the same type that is heavier or an Xl that only needs one side blow up to die, or 14 crit endo FF NOBODY would, NOBODY!

[Vlaitor]

Mcgral18, on 27 July 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

More ammo? Dafuq? The numbers are identical. 7 shots for the AC20. 35 shots for the UAC20 which fires in 5 round bursts 5*7=35.

That's true, my bad. The rest applies without questions.

[Mcgral18]

Vlaitor, on 27 July 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

That's true, my bad. The rest applies without questions.

In your opinion, but I think your opinion is a tad bias.

Certainly not factual.