372 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 20 July 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Obviously youve never played battletech. Locust vs Atlas, Locust wins everytime.

The atlas kills you the round he wins initiative. Locusts don't have jump jets so on maps with terrain they don't exactly have free reign.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Oogalook, on 20 July 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

I must disagree with you somewhat, Viktor: The issue with light 'mechs lies in the rewards system in the game, where kills, assists, and damage scores totally outweigh the little cash packets from Narc/Tag, Spot, and UAV usage. A couple of good light pilots can certainly turn the tide of a battle and earn great win-loss ratios, but the in-game C-Bill payment for such is negligible. That's the issue here; little glory is won by running a team player Light chassis, while playing a Heavy or Assault 'mech gives instant and tangible rewards.

This imbalance applies primarily to PUG and small group play, as you probably perceive.

Just did a little solo PUG test with my Firestarter. I haven't played this mech or any light for a long, long while so I am super rusty and haven't had a chance to get used to it with the JJ and leg damage nerf.

First match out:

Match Score: 97 (2nd highest on team)
624 damage
1 Kill
9 Assists
4 Components Destroyed
9 Spotting Assists (doing my job as a scout)

Earnings:

269,898 c-bills (w/premium)
2,267 XP (w/premium)

There is nothing wrong with lights or these reward numbers. I played very well and got rewarded very well for doing it.

Sure this is one match but the point is, Lights are perfectly capable of having this sort of performance so what the hell more do people want, an "I Win" button?

Edited by Viktor Drake, 20 July 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[Xarian]

The lowest number on the queue will always be very, very low because those mechs get pulled out of the queue when a match starts.

If you had 27 guys in the queue, with 6 Light, 6 Med, 8 Heavy, and 7 Assault, you'd see the numbers quickly jump down to 0% / 0% / 66% / 33%. In other words, matchmaking is Working As Intended.

The true measure of how many lights are queueing is the match start times. If the matches take a long time to start, you're running low on Lights/Mediums.

[Artgathan]

Damage is sort of a meaningless statistic when comparing different mechs (so long as it is possible to score 100+ damage with a single ML shot). There are ways to pad your damage, and in general better pilots will actually score kills with less damage.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Artgathan, on 20 July 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Damage is sort of a meaningless statistic when comparing different mechs (so long as it is possible to score 100+ damage with a single ML shot). There are ways to pad your damage, and in general better pilots will actually score kills with less damage.

In general though, damage is still a good stat to judge by. It shows two very important things about the pilots skill. It shows how active they are and also how well they can survive. Basically to put up good damage numbers you have to be in the thick of the fight contributing plus you have to be able to live long enough to actually do damage.

Low damage, high kill numbers tell me that the pilot is a vulture and is usually hiding and waiting for easy kills rather than someone who is actually contributing throughout the match to win.

[SprechenSieSexy]

I see lots of lights.
Usually they're 11% of the queue when I play.

[nehebkau]

lockwoodx, on 19 July 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Pffft Lights will never be easy targets, but if they leg hum now they're asking for disaster. Lights have been pigeon holed into the scouting roles they should play... and no more of this 400+ damage crap from Raven 3Ls.

Vassago Rain, on 19 July 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

I'm gonna quote this because it's a lovely point that people conveniently gloss over.

Lights were NEVER viable in this game. They remained playable through buggy weapons, buggy hit detection, lagshields, and other issues with the game itself.

Now that more weapons actually function, they get blown up the second a fight starts.

RampancyTW, on 19 July 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

Just posted a 4/4/640 game in my NARC Jenner

OMG LIGHTS ARE DEAD

L2P etc.

But seriously, I am NOT a particularly good pilot, if you are struggling with lights you are probably making extremely correctable mistakes

He's right!


Lights are not Obsolete or POS'. This is my kitfox (so exclusively after hitboxes/hitreg were fixed) and not one of these matches were part of a group -- they were all pugs and solo-queue:

Mech' Matches Played Wins Losses Ratio Kills Deaths Ratio Damage Done XP Earned Time Played KIT FOX KFX-PRIME(G) 176 101 74 1.36 151 86 1.76 60,666 187,239

My Kitfox averages 344 damage per game --- often times better than the DWFs on my team. This little guy is doing pretty well and, I usually only have to wait 10 seconds for a match.

Viktor Drake, on 20 July 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

In general though, damage is still a good stat to judge by. It shows two very important things about the pilots skill. It shows how active they are and also how well they can survive. Basically to put up good damage numbers you have to be in the thick of the fight contributing plus you have to be able to live long enough to actually do damage.

Low damage, high kill numbers tell me that the pilot is a vulture and is usually hiding and waiting for easy kills rather than someone who is actually contributing throughout the match to win.

My damage isn't higher because I am always aiming for the CT -- I prefer to make effective shots instead of blowing my load all over a mec. Which is the better pilot? The one who does 30 damage to take down an an uninjured atlas or the one who does 800?

Edited by nehebkau, 20 July 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[Jman5]

I've been meaning to write up a big wall of text suggestion, but what PGI needs to do is develop unique skills and abilities for each weight class. That way you can create more defined roles and that give clear benefits for bringing a light, medium, heavy, and assault.

So for example with lights you could do stuff like:

Passives:
Reduced Targeting range: (you have to get a little closer to target a light since their radar signature is so small)
Better Targeting information: Instead of just showing a straight list of weapons. A light sees what weapons are arm mounted and what are torso mounted. Works only if a light has the mech targeted.

Active:
Free UAV (Can provide intel about the enemy to your teammates)
Remote Seismic Sensor: Similar to the UAV but less detailed and longer lasting. Plant it in on an alternate path and be alerted to enemies flanking from the side.

And you would add stuff like this to each weight class. Hell you could even split it up by Clan and IS. Stuff like this would really help shape and define the weight classes much more

[stjobe]

Jman5, on 20 July 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I've been meaning to write up a big wall of text suggestion, but what PGI needs to do is develop unique skills and abilities for each weight class.

What, you mean like this?

Yeah, read it and weep, that post is from February 2012; two and a half years ago, that is what they told us we would get - and what many of us decided to part with our founder cash for.

Somewhere along the line they seem to have decided not to do this, and... yeah. The game is worse for it.

[Jiang Wei]

Rhent, on 19 July 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

A stalker walking off a cliff 3X's higher than itself will take a 5% armor loss from that fall. If you want to check it, go to HPG Manifold, walk up top and then fall down to the lower level and you just lost 5% of your total armor and your legs are orange.

Regardless of what the actuall fall damage rules are and the the actual statistics, in practice light mechs are punished severly by both falling damage, and bump damage now which primarily goes to the legs too. The whole fall damage system is punishing for everyone really. It doesnt make you more cautious, you still take tons of leg damage even when you actually are cautious, thats why the system is so stupid.

[Lefty Lucy]

stjobe, on 20 July 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

What, you mean like this?

Yeah, read it and weep, that post is from February 2012; two and a half years ago, that is what they told us we would get - and what many of us decided to part with our founder cash for.

Somewhere along the line they seem to have decided not to do this, and... yeah. The game is worse for it.

When they decided to spend all their money on artists instead of game designers. When their coding skill fights against an engine that is poorly-suited to a mech game, the engine wins.

[Jiang Wei]

Viktor Drake, on 20 July 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

In general though, damage is still a good stat to judge by. It shows two very important things about the pilots skill. It shows how active they are and also how well they can survive. Basically to put up good damage numbers you have to be in the thick of the fight contributing plus you have to be able to live long enough to actually do damage.

Low damage, high kill numbers tell me that the pilot is a vulture and is usually hiding and waiting for easy kills rather than someone who is actually contributing throughout the match to win.

Basically? I have been the first to die countless times in games where I STILL end up with most damage dealt and the most or ONLY kills on the team.

And countless times I lived, did little to no damage because my team steamrolled the enemy before I could get any hits in.

And countless times I have carried the team to victory and gotten many kills.

And countless times I have gotten tons of kills and little damage, or lots of damage

And countless times I have gotten top damage, and no kills.


But do these stats actually mean anything? No

No stat is useful to anyone but yourself.

There is only 1 stat that matters to everyone and that is Win/loss.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 20 July 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Look, I don't like to be harsh, but I feel it need to happen here. If you are citing one or two examples where you personally did well in a light mech as evidence they are fine then you are being dumb. No two ways about it. If lights were fine the queue would be 25% for each weight class. There are significant portions of the time when I log in that lights are less than 10% of the queue. Often times heavies and assaults are upwards of 75% of the total queue for me. Right now: heavies 44%, assaults 30%, medium, 18%, lights 8%.

If you are not PGI and/or unable to provide data from thousands of matches then your one or two or ten great matches are absolutely irrelevant to the discussion and you need to go take some stats courses. The evidence that we clearly have available to anyone is that lights are under represented in the queue (and mediums usually too). I personally have never seen lights over 20% in the queue. You can debate why all you want, but the fact that lights are under represented is indisputable. PGI would never have had to put in 4x3 if this were not a problem.

Comparing MWO to MMORPGs is also fairly disingenuous. In every MMO I have ever played the "support" classes are all capable of at least two roles. In MWO there is only one role that matters: being a mech killer. I would imagine any other roles are probably 1-2 years down the line at least if it ever comes. The other thing is that in MMOs the rewards at the top of the game are gear based. MWO's rewards are all performance based and the performance factors that matter are all directly related to combat.

Edit: Spelling. And by disingenuous I meant in this particular context, in some it makes sense, especially with CW allegedly close again.

Edited by Lostdragon, 20 July 2014 - 07:19 PM.

[nehebkau]

Lostdragon, on 20 July 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Look, I don't like to be harsh, but I feel it need to happen here. If you are citing one or two examples where you personally did well in a light mech as evidence they are fine then you are being dumb.

Over 176 games, doing an average of 345 damage per game in a 30 ton, 2 laser mech is not one or two examples. It is a large sample size that indicates if you play with a little awareness of what you are and what you are there to do, you can be effective in a 30 ton mech.

You just cant do the Lazer-boy Jenner dash and zap anymore -- which is fine by me. You have to understand what you are there to do -- AND THAT ISN'T BEING ONLY A SUPPORT CLASS.

I spent 1 match keeping a DWF and WHK hunting for me in upper (river) city while everyone else was fighting lower city. An entire match of circle behind, fire, duck, move, repeat. My team won because they had a huge advantage with a 30 ton mech keeping 185 tons of mech out of the primary battle. Lights are fine, if you stop trying to be a time-bending Matrix defying super-warrior.

Edited by nehebkau, 20 July 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Kyrie]

nehebkau, on 20 July 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Over 176 games, doing an average of 345 damage per game in a 30 ton, 2 laser mech is not one or two examples. It is a large sample size that indicates if you play with a little awareness of what you are and what you are there to do, you can be effective in a 30 ton mech.

You just cant do the Lazer-boy Jenner dash and zap anymore -- which is fine by me. You have to understand what you are there to do -- AND THAT ISN'T BEING ONLY A SUPPORT CLASS.

I spent 1 match keeping a DWF and WHK hunting for me in upper (river) city while everyone else was fighting lower city. An entire match of circle behind, fire, duck, move, repeat. My team won because they had a huge advantage with a 30 ton mech keeping 185 tons of mech out of the primary battle. Lights are fine, if you stop trying to be a time-bending Matrix defying super-warrior.

Except everyone wants to be a time-bending Matrix defying super-warrior. :-)

The problem with lights in my view is that at present they require a lot more effort to play. This effort encompasses all areas of the combat arena: situational awareness, coordination, risk analysis, and so on. All of this just to break even with the performance of a mediocre heavy or medium pilot.

The potential to perform outstandingly in a light mech exists, demonstrably so. The contention being offered is that the experience, effort, and skill required to do so is quite higher for this one class of mech relative to the others. In other words, a light pilot has to be twice as good to get on-par performance and results. And that this effort is not being rewarded properly.

[AllSystemsNominal]

Viktor Drake, on 20 July 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Just did a little solo PUG test with my Firestarter. I haven't played this mech or any light for a long, long while so I am super rusty and haven't had a chance to get used to it with the JJ and leg damage nerf.

First match out:

Match Score: 97 (2nd highest on team)
624 damage
1 Kill
9 Assists
4 Components Destroyed
9 Spotting Assists (doing my job as a scout)

Earnings:

269,898 c-bills (w/premium)
2,267 XP (w/premium)

There is nothing wrong with lights or these reward numbers. I played very well and got rewarded very well for doing it.

Sure this is one match but the point is, Lights are perfectly capable of having this sort of performance so what the hell more do people want, an "I Win" button?

/rolleyes

Those matches are outliers and even good light mech pilots, when being honest, will tell you that those are outliers.

Quote

[color=#959595]Over 176 games, doing an average of 345 damage per game in a 30 ton, 2 laser mech is not one or two examples. It is a large sample size that indicates if you play with a little awareness of what you are and what you are there to do, you can be effective in a 30 ton mech.

[/color]

Any proof of this? Or are we just supposed to take you at your word

Edited by AllSystemsNominal, 20 July 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

AllSystemsNominal, on 20 July 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

/rolleyes

Those matches are outliers and even good light mech pilots, when being honest, will tell you that those are outliers.

They are outliers to the average player in a light mech.

What he posted is an average match with a good pilot. However, this topic is more focused on the average players, not the above average. Reason being is the above average player will always earn above average income for their performance.

[Adiuvo]

mwhighlander, on 20 July 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

They are outliers to the average player in a light mech.

What he posted is an average match with a good pilot. However, this topic is more focused on the average players, not the above average. Reason being is the above average player will always earn above average income for their performance.

That is not an average match for a light pilot lol. Nobody has average damage that high with a meaningful amount of matches.

Maybe if you're constantly popping strikes in the solo queue... but even then.

Edited by Adiuvo, 20 July 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[nehebkau]

Kyrie, on 20 July 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Except everyone wants to be a time-bending Matrix defying super-warrior. :-)

The problem with lights in my view is that at present they require a lot more effort to play. This effort encompasses all areas of the combat arena: situational awareness, coordination, risk analysis, and so on. All of this just to break even with the performance of a mediocre heavy or medium pilot.

The potential to perform outstandingly in a light mech exists, demonstrably so. The contention being offered is that the experience, effort, and skill required to do so is quite higher for this one class of mech relative to the others. In other words, a light pilot has to be twice as good to get on-par performance and results. And that this effort is not being rewarded properly.

Well if you are asking me if I would like more rewards for playing a light -- HELL YA! Some scaling of rewards based on weight wouldn't bother me at all... But I do get great satisfaction when I have an excellent match in a light --- way more satisfaction then when I have a kill-fest in a heavy or assault.

Edited by nehebkau, 20 July 2014 - 11:16 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Adiuvo, on 20 July 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

That is not an average match for a light pilot lol. Nobody has average damage that high with a meaningful amount of matches.

Maybe if you're constantly popping strikes in the solo queue... but even then.

No actually Highlander probably does......

Edited by Yokaiko, 20 July 2014 - 11:20 AM.