372 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Wolfways, on 20 July 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

Why is noone complaining that the clan lights are too slow?....

Cause I can finally hit a Light Mech regularly?!

[Angel of Annihilation]

lockwoodx, on 19 July 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Bingo! Lights were suppose to deal with the tanks and infantry, not other mechs.

The game primarily rewards players for killing blows so naturally you won't see players rushing to fill the role of mechs not designed for that purpose.

Exactly. Light mechs were designed to be used exclusively for recon and raids. Basically they roam about looking for the main enemy force, then when they find them, usually without engaging, they would radio in the location of the enemy and then run away as fast as they can so as not to be destroyed by the main force.

Additionally when performing recon, lights may run into the enemy recon forces which would be composed of other light mechs and light vehicles. Against these light mechs and light vehicles, the armor and armament of a light mech was more than adequate.

Also as they were performing recon, these lights often would run across supply dumps, mobile repair facilities, supply convoys, etc. These were lightly defended and easily raided and destroyed by a lance or star of light mechs.

Lastly, the might act as a fast harassment force, pinking away at the main body of enemy to distract and generally confuse the enemy without fully engaging.

These are the roles that a light mech was designed to play, NOT going head-to-head against Heavy and Assault mechs.

In game, you have these roles available to play, at least to a certain extent. Lights can rush out and find the enemy then run back and report their location. The can also cap the enemy base or claim resource points. They can engage and destory the enemy recon elements (other lights). Additionally they can provide ECM cover to the main force. The can also harass and confuse the enemy. Basically they can preform every Role a light mech is supposed to be able to perform.

Now above and beyond those traditional roles, they can also KILL assault mechs solo and not just kill assault mechs, pretty much kill any mech in the game as long as they have a decent pilot in the cockpit that isn't trying to play their Jenner like a Direwolf. Basically they are very viable played right. Light mechs are also the deciding factor in at least a large minority of games.

Now the issue is, just because they are viable played right doesn't mean people will want to play them. Lights are mostly a support design. The help the team win rather than winning themselves, just like the Healer class does in other MMOs and just like those healer classes, lights attract only a certain small segment of the population of players.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 20 July 2014 - 05:37 AM.

[Wolfways]

Terciel1976, on 19 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

Because you stopped to use seismic? That would tend to diminish your survivability, I'd think...

Only if you're dopey enough to stop in the open

I see the same things on the forum as i see in matches:

"Lights get 1-shotted"
"Stop chasing the squirrel!"
Why is anyone chasing them if they die in 1 hit? It makes no sense. Also, if everyone is chasing them or 1-shotting them why are lights usually the last ones to survive and you have to run around the map looking for them?

Oh, and i regularly see high scores by Jenners, Firestarters, and Raven-3L's.

(Note: ELO may apply. I'd guess I'm around mid ELO)

Edited by Wolfways, 20 July 2014 - 05:05 AM.

[AlexEss]

Nope... This is how it is in ever MMO... I am going to use WoW as an example but any game with classes or roles could do as well.

In WoW you have three classes (known as roles) Tank Healer and Damage. Of these Damage is the easiest one to play because you have the Tank and the Healer to back you up and all you have to do is make numbers appear over enemies. These are our Heavies and more mobile Assaults. Easy to play and does not need much in the way of thinking. Tanks on the other hand do not really need all the the Damage if the Healer is good and take some thinking to be really efficient. These are our Mediums and slow Assault

And then we have the healers, very much dependent on both the tank and the damage to do their role and while they are important to both Tank and Damage they depend way more one the rest of the team to keep them alive it takes a very good situational awareness and a solid head to stay alive. These are our Light mechs. Now while they do not directly heal anyone they need the same skillset and a well played light can have a big impact on the other team. But they take a lot of work and the road to being good at them is littered with death and frustration.

And just like in WoW the pug cue have way way way more damage then Tanks and more Tanks then healers (depending on content progression... Once over gearing kicks in the number of tanks tend to drop and healers go up because it becomes a lot easier to keep people alive.)

So it is only natural that we see the hardest to play type being the one least played. Not much to do about that. Maybe if CW have a solid campaign mode will the number of lights pick up due to cost but that is creating a artificial demand, just like RnR did. I still think scout lights have a solid place, but it is a bit hard to play the striker lights now.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Wolfways, on 20 July 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

Only if you're dopey enough to stop in the open

I see the same things on the forum as i see in matches:

"Lights get 1-shotted"
"Stop chasing the squirrel!"
Why is anyone chasing them if they die in 1 hit? It makes no sense. Also, if everyone is chasing them or 1-shotting them why are lights usually the last ones to survive and you have to run around the map looking for them?

Oh, and i regularly see high scores by Jenners, Firestarters, and Raven-3L's.

(Note: ELO may apply. I'd guess I'm around mid ELO)

Yep exactly.

Lights don't always put up big numbers but I can't count the times lights have won a match by distracting entire teams and causing them to lose all cohesion. Either you have a Direwolf, Battlemaster and Stalker running around into the backfield chasing the Jenner instead of being up front where his firepower is useful; or they are stringing out and leading the fast heavies and mediums one by one into the mass of their teams firepower. Maybe they are wolfpacking and taking out a lone straggler or generally just making straffing passes though the enemy lines taking out a leg here, arm there and generally causing the enemy team to split their attention between that assault chewing them up or the light legging them. Prehaps that light is sitting way out there, sniping away, slowly picking you apart or at least causing you to seek cover rather than kill a teammate.

Basically lights have a massively profound effect on game play, more so than any other class in the game yet because they can't stand toe-to-toe with a Direwolf and get 5-6 kills, 1000 damage a match, people complain about how bad they are....yeah right.

[Khobai]

The problem is rewards are based almost entirely on damage, kills, and assists. Even if a light mech performs all of its roles admirably it normally cant come close to the match score of a heavy or assault mech.

Thats why the rewards need to be higher for capping, scouting, and tagging/narcing. There should also be a bonus for backshots. A light that does an equally good job of capping/spotting/harassing should get rewarded just as much as an assault that does its job of damaging/killing.

That in of itself isnt enough though. We also need role warfare and new gamemodes to make every weight class important to winning the match.

Edited by Khobai, 20 July 2014 - 05:52 AM.

[Gyrok]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 July 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Lights have the natural disadvantages of having little armor, internal health, and not being able to equip much in the way of weaponry and equipment. This has been balanced in the past by lights having extreme mobility. A good light pilot can choose when and where he or she wants to fight, can get to strategically-important positions quickly, and can often get a view of the developing battlefield before the rest of the team. In high-level play being "harder to hit" doesn't come into play, as a skilled opponent will be able to hit you regardless of how fast you're moving. To wit, lights have always been extremely vulnerable to high-damage alphas removing legs or side torsos in a salvo or two.

Despite this high-risk play style, many of PGI's balance changes have made lights even riskier and less rewarding to play.

Turrets make it so lights can't threaten the enemy team with a base cap.

No-min-range Clan LRMs mean lights aren't safe from guided weaponry up close.

Fall damage means lights will often take significant damage before the enemy is even engaged.

The jump jet nerf means that lights have a much harder time getting out of bad situations, and if you reserve fuel to prevent extreme leg damage you get very little jump jet height in the first place, even with 5+ jj.

Every single balance patch doesn't do anything to get rid of the oft-maligned "pop tart" but cripples high-mobility game play even further.

When I typically play, lights are usually hovering around 15-20% of the queue. Though, that is NA prime time. I suppose you may be in some other part of the world and seeing different things then I am. However, light mechs may be slightly under represented, but not by a large margin.

[stjobe]

Viktor Drake, on 20 July 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

Exactly. Light mechs were designed to be used exclusively for recon and raids.

Come on... Can we lay this crap argument to rest already?

The Hollander isn't a recon or scout 'mech: "The Hollander was introduced in 3054 specifically to carry a Gauss Rifle into combat and act as a sniper."

Neither is the Panther: "The design was originally commissioned in 2739 at the behest of the Star League to provide fire support for other light, fast-moving 'Mech units".

Nor are most of the MWO lights pure scout/recon 'mechs:

Commando: "The Commando's profile was radically changed with the introduction of the sophisticated COM-2D variant in 2486, which exchanged the laser weaponry with short range missiles and turned the machine into a striker."

Spider: "The Spider was the first BattleMech produced by Newhart Industries and designed as a light reconnaissance and attack 'Mech to be used by Star League Defense Force Special Operations forces such as the Blackhearts."

Jenner: "the Jenner was meant to be a fast guerrilla fighter which would go on to form the foundation for highly mobile lances."

Firestarter: "The Firestarter was designed by Argile Technologies of Skye in 2550 to perform as an incendiary 'Mech. "

Raven: "The Raven is a light electronic warfare BattleMech", "[color=#000000]the -4X was an attempt to turn the chassis into a pure combat unit.[/color]"

Scouting and Recon are roles; any weight class can do them. Lights might have advantages (speed, mobility, small frame) that makes them more suited for these roles, but that's not the only role they could do.

In BattleTech, 'mechs were supposed to be multi-role, and they were all supposed to be able to fight other 'mechs if needed. Especially lights and mediums were considered jack-of-all-trades in that they could perform a variety of roles well, that's part of why they were so common - it's no good having a specialist 'mech if what you need isn't covered by that speciality; much better in that case to have a generalist.

[Clydewinder]

I think in the past, the survivability of light mechs has been artificially high due to hit detection and their ability to fly/fall/crash into things without damage.

The solution is not to do the nerf/buff dance to make lights more powerful.. the solution should be game modes and rewards for doing what light mechs do best - recon, hit & run, capture, ECM support.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

lockwoodx, on 19 July 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

and no more of this 400+ damage crap from Raven 3Ls.

Well, ok. No more "sniper" 3L's but what about Firestarters?

[TLBFestus]

Viktor Drake, on 19 July 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

The only way you are going to draw more people to lights is if you make them massively OPed.

Wrong, wrong, wrong wrong...just plain wrong.

There is no way that the vast majority of players can earn C-bills and XP at the same rate in a light mech versus an Assault or Heavy, because the game rewards are tied to damage and kills.

Give more rewards to lights for other aspects of the game, ie. Rewards based on time other mechs spend under their ECM umbrella, and they will get used more because the higher reward will allow more leveling, more purchases. They need to Reward "INFORMATION WARFARE", which is still basically non-existent in this game after 2 years.

That's how you encourage more lights.

[Roughneck45]

I'm sure the mediocrity of the clan lights isn't helping that number.

[Rampancy]

Khobai, on 20 July 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

The problem is rewards are based almost entirely on damage, kills, and assists. Even if a light mech performs all of its roles admirably it normally cant come close to the match score of a heavy or assault mech.

Thats why the rewards need to be higher for capping, scouting, and tagging/narcing. There should also be a bonus for backshots. A light that does an equally good job of capping/spotting/harassing should get rewarded just as much as an assault that does its job of damaging/killing.

That in of itself isnt enough though. We also need role warfare and new gamemodes to make every weight class important to winning the match.

They already ARE pretty high

Seriously, if you spend a match harrassing (building up kill assists), TAGing/NARCing (bonus + spotting assists), and blowing off the occasional ST/CT (component destruction/kill bonuses), even at only around 300 damage you should be pulling in at least 120k cbills and 900 EXP. You'll occasionally get stuck on a terrible team, but on a semi-competent team with LRMs you will be rolling in the dough.

My JR7-F is also easily my highest-earning mech (with the exception of my Nova-PRIME(I), due to hero bonus).

[AllSystemsNominal]

Viktor Drake, on 20 July 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

Exactly. Light mechs were designed to be used exclusively for recon and raids. Basically they roam about looking for the main enemy force, then when they find them, usually without engaging, they would radio in the location of the enemy and then run away as fast as they can so as not to be destroyed by the main force.

Additionally when performing recon, lights may run into the enemy recon forces which would be composed of other light mechs and light vehicles. Against these light mechs and light vehicles, the armor and armament of a light mech was more than adequate.

Also as they were performing recon, these lights often would run across supply dumps, mobile repair facilities, supply convoys, etc. These were lightly defended and easily raided and destroyed by a lance or star of light mechs.

Lastly, the might act as a fast harassment force, pinking away at the main body of enemy to distract and generally confuse the enemy without fully engaging.

These are the roles that a light mech was designed to play, NOT going head-to-head against Heavy and Assault mechs.

Useless information - it doesn't matter what light mechs do in the game lore or tabletop, this is a computer game.

Quote

In game, you have these roles available to play, at least to a certain extent. Lights can rush out and find the enemy then run back and report their location. The can also cap the enemy base or claim resource points. They can engage and destory the enemy recon elements (other lights). Additionally they can provide ECM cover to the main force. The can also harass and confuse the enemy. Basically they can preform every Role a light mech is supposed to be able to perform.

Now above and beyond those traditional roles, they can also KILL assault mechs solo and not just kill assault mechs, pretty much kill any mech in the game as long as they have a decent pilot in the cockpit that isn't trying to play their Jenner like a Direwolf. Basically they are very viable played right. Light mechs are also the deciding factor in at least a large minority of games.

Now the issue is, just because they are viable played right doesn't mean people will want to play them. Lights are mostly a support design. The help the team win rather than winning themselves, just like the Healer class does in other MMOs and just like those healer classes, lights attract only a certain small segment of the population of players.

Useless platitudes.

'Support' - yeah, not really. An ATLAS with ECM supports just as well. With maps being so small and spawn locations so close, scouting isn't very valuable either.

Face the facts and stop making excuses - light and medium mechs aren't popular because they don't have a purpose. You will have more fun and be better off playing a heavy mech where you get to shoot people instead of a lighter mec that can get blown up by a dire wolf alpha strike.

People play the game to have fun and nobody wants to be the first guy in 'timeout' because a direwolf cored him.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

TLBFestus, on 20 July 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

Give more rewards to lights for other aspects of the game, ie. Rewards based on time other mechs spend under their ECM umbrella, and they will get used more because the higher reward will allow more leveling, more purchases. They need to Reward "INFORMATION WARFARE", which is still basically non-existent in this game after 2 years.

That's how you encourage more lights.

Agreed. Right now to earn good money in lights, you need to be a crack shot, assassin, and get a LOT of spotting/kill assists.

I regularly get very good paychecks with my ember, but that is in part due to the hero bonus. However, exceptions prove the rule. Lights need target bonus, objective bonus, etc.


Otherwise, this paycheck would be +300k plus and rightly deserved for performing well in a game that is essentially TDM only.


Also, players should get a +15% bonus for piloting ANY mech chassis that is under 15 % usage. That little bit of extra cash would be a HUGE motivator to get the MM searching times down.

[Oogalook]

Viktor Drake, on 19 July 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with light mechs. They have been and still are one of the most effective mech classes in the game. There is absolutely nothing that will cause an enemy team to fall apart faster than a couple of lights harassing the backfield, NARCing, TAGing and generally causing havoc.

I must disagree with you somewhat, Viktor: The issue with light 'mechs lies in the rewards system in the game, where kills, assists, and damage scores totally outweigh the little cash packets from Narc/Tag, Spot, and UAV usage. A couple of good light pilots can certainly turn the tide of a battle and earn great win-loss ratios, but the in-game C-Bill payment for such is negligible. That's the issue here; little glory is won by running a team player Light chassis, while playing a Heavy or Assault 'mech gives instant and tangible rewards.

This imbalance applies primarily to PUG and small group play, as you probably perceive.

[RLBell]

In my opinion, the dearth of lights has less to do with how bad they may be, than with how good the Timberwolves and Dire Wolves are. We are not seeing a decrease in lights, we are seeing an increase in heavies and a lower increase in assaults. Timberwolves are everywhere, followed by Dire Wolves, and they are skewing the matchmaker with their popularity.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Khobai, on 20 July 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

The problem is rewards are based almost entirely on damage, kills, and assists. Even if a light mech performs all of its roles admirably it normally cant come close to the match score of a heavy or assault mech.

Thats why the rewards need to be higher for capping, scouting, and tagging/narcing. There should also be a bonus for backshots. A light that does an equally good job of capping/spotting/harassing should get rewarded just as much as an assault that does its job of damaging/killing.

That in of itself isnt enough though. We also need role warfare and new gamemodes to make every weight class important to winning the match.

While I agree in theory, I have never had a problem with my light mechs matching the rewards of my heavier designs. We already have a system where an assist earns more than a kill for example.

Now maybe, just maybe they should implement some "lights only" bonuses in game for lights (and maybe a few "scout" themed mediums) where they get a couple thousand for capping a resource point to full or maybe a 20% bonus to earnings from spots, NARCs or TAGs. Hell they should probably get a small bonus for every mech they cover with ECM for 30 seconds or longer. However it can't be too large a bonus because like I said, I don't have much trouble with my earnings as a light.

[OznerpaG]

lights are more than capable of getting the same results as heavies/assaults, but it takes a lot more work and diligence to do so

everybody makes mistakes during a match, and heavies/assaults are forgiving of those mistakes - lights are not

ultimately we play to grind out CB to buy more shiny toys, and heavies/assaults give us more cash more consistently with less diligence - i play MWO to have fun, and heavies/assaults give me lots of cash while having fun and relaxing. lights CAN give me lots of cash, but it's more work than fun - i smash my fist down after a match a LOT less now when i play my heavier mechs than i did with my lighter mechs, and my hand isn't as sore as it was 6 months ago lol

[KraftySOT]

FupDup, on 19 July 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

No, it isn't a surprise. The arm's race to bigger and superior robots is a problem inherited from every previous MW game as well as Battletech itself, and PGI's original Role Warfare idea to address this never came through...

Obviously youve never played battletech. Locust vs Atlas, Locust wins everytime. You get a to hit malus for every few hexes you move, you can easily end your turn, every turn, with putting the enemies to hit over 12, and in the rear arc. At least with regular pilots. Once you get elite pilots in the 1/1 range, youll eventually get hit, and die. A green Atlas pilot (5/5) will never, ever, beat a locust.

Since you aim your weapons, and not a targeting computer (or a dice roll) and everything you aim at you hit, lights are going to be crap.

You either have to give them arbitrary bonuses, or take aiming out of the players hands.