65 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

Tried my Shadowhawk with JJs (2 of them), it seemed like it barely got off the ground.

This goes against what I would think JJs were intendid to do.

JJs (in my eyes) was intendid for manuverability. It allows mechs to get up on terrain or jump over an enemy in the hopes of getting behind them. JJs were not intended to be used to leap into the fire from behind a mountain and fire like a jumping bean.

Now, it seems like PGI removed the absolute core purpose of the JJ. It can't get over other mechs or on terrain and I do think you could "Technically" still poptart with it if you found low cover.

Going back to the old JJs and then on top of that, adding a feature like Bishop had mentioned...

Bishop Steiner, on 21 July 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

Extend reticle shake .5 seconds after thrust is cut. Problem fixed.

...sounds like a good idea to me.

JJs need to function like JJs.

[Roadkill]

5 JJ on a Thor won't get you onto the ledge that rings the citadel on River City unless you time your approach and jump perfectly. I don't think it's possible if you start your jump from a standstill in the water at the base of the citadel.

5 JJ. The max. And they're fixed.

They just massively nerfed the Thor, and to a lesser extent the MadCat. (Less on the MadCat because it actually carries a useful payload regardless of its JJ.)

I do think that JJ needed a nerf, but I don't think they managed this one correctly. The net jump should increase exponentially... 1 JJ should be pretty useless, but 5 should be better than 5 x 1 JJ.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

CygnusX7, on 22 July 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Makes sense but I'm thinking a lot more forward thrust.

My concern then is that if they push you so far forward during the burn that you can't effectively poptart they will be pushing you faster than any engine you can equip. I can just imagine a Victor going +140kph on its jump.

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 July 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Now, it seems like PGI removed the absolute core purpose of the JJ. It can't get over other mechs or on terrain and I do think you could "Technically" still poptart with it if you found low cover.

I think what we learned here is that the jump jet requirements for poptarting are lower than the requirements for jump jets as a mobility tool.

Edited by Rouken, 22 July 2014 - 07:56 AM.

[Roadkill]

One thing they did get right, at least in my opinion:

JJ should not "pop" you off the ground when you fire them. Ever watched a shuttle launch? The rockets fire... and nothing happens for a couple of seconds. It takes time and a lot of thrust to get the mass of the space shuttle moving.

The same is true for Mechs. These are big, heavy, war machines. It should take a significant portion of your JJ fuel to get these things moving vertically, and that's exactly what PGI has done.

So kudos for that - the launch does feel correct to me. The height doesn't, though, and I'm not sure why. It still feels like light Mechs are too flighty and that heavier Mechs are too ponderous. 5 JJ on a light should feel the same as 5 JJ on an assault, because the assault is paying for 4x heavier duty JJs than the light is. The end result should be the same.

[Bobby Blast]

I WISH I could take the jj's out of my Novas...

[Lefty Lucy]

Roadkill, on 22 July 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

One thing they did get right, at least in my opinion:

JJ should not "pop" you off the ground when you fire them. Ever watched a shuttle launch? The rockets fire... and nothing happens for a couple of seconds. It takes time and a lot of thrust to get the mass of the space shuttle moving.

The same is true for Mechs. These are big, heavy, war machines. It should take a significant portion of your JJ fuel to get these things moving vertically, and that's exactly what PGI has done.

So kudos for that - the launch does feel correct to me. The height doesn't, though, and I'm not sure why. It still feels like light Mechs are too flighty and that heavier Mechs are too ponderous. 5 JJ on a light should feel the same as 5 JJ on an assault, because the assault is paying for 4x heavier duty JJs than the light is. The end result should be the same.

I think light mechs *should* feel "flighty."

I mean the one thing they've ever had going for them is good mobility, and an F14 Tomcat weighs 18 tons, and can sustain full flight at over mach 2. I think a mech that only weighs about 50% more should be pretty agile.

[4rcs1ne]

What's funny is that poptarts weren't hardly affected by this nerf. Instead, it has affected mechs that use jump jets for mobility. Once again, another "solution" that doesn't fix the core problem.

[WarHippy]

Roadkill, on 22 July 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

One thing they did get right, at least in my opinion:

JJ should not "pop" you off the ground when you fire them. Ever watched a shuttle launch? The rockets fire... and nothing happens for a couple of seconds. It takes time and a lot of thrust to get the mass of the space shuttle moving.

The same is true for Mechs. These are big, heavy, war machines. It should take a significant portion of your JJ fuel to get these things moving vertically, and that's exactly what PGI has done.

So kudos for that - the launch does feel correct to me. The height doesn't, though, and I'm not sure why. It still feels like light Mechs are too flighty and that heavier Mechs are too ponderous. 5 JJ on a light should feel the same as 5 JJ on an assault, because the assault is paying for 4x heavier duty JJs than the light is. The end result should be the same.

Yes, well with your space shuttle it does take it a moment to get going, but once it does it goes high and fast. The current JJ don't do that at all. As for popping the mech off the ground I always assumed the mech itself jumped as it fired the jets to give it that extra little lift at the start.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lefty Lucy, on 22 July 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I think light mechs *should* feel "flighty."

I mean the one thing they've ever had going for them is good mobility, and an F14 Tomcat weighs 18 tons, and can sustain full flight at over mach 2. I think a mech that only weighs about 50% more should be pretty agile.

if a mech was 1) aerodynamic 2) of a similar density to an aircraft an 3) and generating 247.4 kN of thrust (or even remotely in the ballpark) this comparison might almost serve a purpose, LL.

Also, between the fans and fuel, you are talking about over 1/3 of the F14s total mass (16200 lbs of fuel, 4400 lbs per fan... each, for 25,000 of 61,000 thousand lbs total mass.)

Also, empty, an F-14 weighs approximately 22 tons.

[Bishop Steiner]

WarHippy, on 22 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Yes, well with your space shuttle it does take it a moment to get going, but once it does it goes high and fast. The current JJ don't do that at all. As for popping the mech off the ground I always assumed the mech itself jumped as it fired the jets to give it that extra little lift at the start.

73,000 cubic feet of liquid fuel and 2x 1,100,000 lbs of solid propellant might account for some of the difference in sustainable lift.........

[WarHippy]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

73,000 cubic feet of liquid fuel and 2x 1,100,000 lbs of solid propellant might account for some of the difference in sustainable lift.........

True, but we also aren't trying to reach escape velocity in our mechs, or attain sustained flight so I would assume our requirements would be far less extreme.

[CeeKay Boques]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

73,000 cubic feet of liquid fuel and 2x 1,100,000 lbs of solid propellant might account for some of the difference in sustainable lift.........

Yeah but we're using renewable nuclear space plasma. Way more potent per.. uh... ton.

And that power needs to lift as much as 40 Atlases.

[WildeKarde]

They need to look at each size of jumpjet on the smallest mech who can carry it, set a height that one jet can allow. Then scale it for multiple jets and heavier mechs. That'll solve the mobility issues.

Then for poptarting just set the target reticle doesn't show (switches off) when jumping. If you can blind shoot while poptarting the you're ok, if not then wait till your on the ground to shoot.

[Bishop Steiner]

WarHippy, on 22 July 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

True, but we also aren't trying to reach escape velocity in our mechs, or attain sustained flight so I would assume our requirements would be far less extreme.

just pointing out the difference between the two once lift is actually achieved.

I ain't saying we don't need better, scaling lift, because we DO. And in fact, we need to have the initial lift be heavily impacted by the number of JJs, too, more so than now. It's just most of the examples given, are ...too hyperbolistic to really count as good arguments.

Simple fact, we are lifting non aerodynamic, extremely dense objects, with moving parts to mess with flight control. They should be relatively clumsy. (less so, the lighter the chassis).

But also a simple fact, is that it takes proportionally more thrust to achieve lift than to sustain it, until one hits the point of diminishing gains. So the less JJs, the more sloth like the lift, and the distance/height achievable. The more JJs, the more those should scale, til perhaps the reach the "stock" number of JJs,then mechs that can mount more than those, possibly see diminishing returns from the extras. Still useful, just not quite AS useful.

My biggest grip,e currently, is I notice if I try to jump with my FS9, Griffins and Summoners, while running, all too often I end up getting extremely flat, shallow jump arcs, making it impossible, for instance to jump up on top of the Dropship Base from the lower city in River City. And yet, it seems highly inconsistent, as one jump I will smack face first into the wall, the next, under the same scenario, I jump up, and over.

They need to add consistency. And as weak as JJs are now, there is ZERO excuse to limit directionality, anymore, and they are meant for mobility and terrain climbing.... yet are singularly bad at both.

Technoviking, on 22 July 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Yeah but we're using renewable nuclear space plasma. Way more potent per.. uh... ton.

And that power needs to lift as much as 40 Atlases.

you got the space magic maths on the thrust rate of Stackpole Reactors in kN? (and how much thrust do they give when they stackpole?)

[WarHippy]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 July 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

just pointing out the difference between the two once lift is actually achieved.

I ain't saying we don't need better, scaling lift, because we DO. And in fact, we need to have the initial lift be heavily impacted by the number of JJs, too, more so than now. It's just most of the examples given, are ...too hyperbolistic to really count as good arguments.

Simple fact, we are lifting non aerodynamic, extremely dense objects, with moving parts to mess with flight control. They should be relatively clumsy. (less so, the lighter the chassis).

But also a simple fact, is that it takes proportionally more thrust to achieve lift than to sustain it, until one hits the point of diminishing gains. So the less JJs, the more sloth like the lift, and the distance/height achievable. The more JJs, the more those should scale, til perhaps the reach the "stock" number of JJs,then mechs that can mount more than those, possibly see diminishing returns from the extras. Still useful, just not quite AS useful.

My biggest grip,e currently, is I notice if I try to jump with my FS9, Griffins and Summoners, while running, all too often I end up getting extremely flat, shallow jump arcs, making it impossible, for instance to jump up on top of the Dropship Base from the lower city in River City. And yet, it seems highly inconsistent, as one jump I will smack face first into the wall, the next, under the same scenario, I jump up, and over.

They need to add consistency. And as weak as JJs are now, there is ZERO excuse to limit directionality, anymore, and they are meant for mobility and terrain climbing.... yet are singularly bad at both.


you got the space magic maths on the thrust rate of Stackpole Reactors in kN? (and how much thrust do they give when they stackpole?)

I say they just add a 2 second build up of power after button press and then catapult the mech up and forward a predetermined amount based on the number of JJ equipped and how fast the mech is moving with an automatic pulse of thrust at the end to cushion the landing. Make them really feel like "jump jets". Give me some controlled chaos.

[Jazzbandit1313]

JJ's are broken?

tell that to this guy
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...093b47acef47a64

also, seriously, yeah theyre useless now.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 July 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

just pointing out the difference between the two once lift is actually achieved.

I ain't saying we don't need better, scaling lift, because we DO. And in fact, we need to have the initial lift be heavily impacted by the number of JJs, too, more so than now. It's just most of the examples given, are ...too hyperbolistic to really count as good arguments.

Simple fact, we are lifting non aerodynamic, extremely dense objects, with moving parts to mess with flight control. They should be relatively clumsy. (less so, the lighter the chassis).

But also a simple fact, is that it takes proportionally more thrust to achieve lift than to sustain it, until one hits the point of diminishing gains. So the less JJs, the more sloth like the lift, and the distance/height achievable. The more JJs, the more those should scale, til perhaps the reach the "stock" number of JJs,then mechs that can mount more than those, possibly see diminishing returns from the extras. Still useful, just not quite AS useful.

My biggest grip,e currently, is I notice if I try to jump with my FS9, Griffins and Summoners, while running, all too often I end up getting extremely flat, shallow jump arcs, making it impossible, for instance to jump up on top of the Dropship Base from the lower city in River City. And yet, it seems highly inconsistent, as one jump I will smack face first into the wall, the next, under the same scenario, I jump up, and over.

They need to add consistency. And as weak as JJs are now, there is ZERO excuse to limit directionality, anymore, and they are meant for mobility and terrain climbing.... yet are singularly bad at both.


you got the space magic maths on the thrust rate of Stackpole Reactors in kN? (and how much thrust do they give when they stackpole?)

Completely agree with this Bishop. This is exactly how JJs should work. 2 JJ minimum to get the mass moving, 3-4 to actually get sustained lift with 5 or more giving extreme hang time. Also these numbers should be standardized across all mechs. 5 JJs on a Highlander at 2 tons a piece should be able to give just as much motive thrust as 5 JJs on a Spider at 0.5 tons a piece. Basically you get penalized for too few JJs but get full use out of maxing or near maxing your JJs.

Also a pilot should be able to chose between vertical lift and forward thrust (or rearward) Basically press just the jump button and you go straight up with no forward momentum. However press both the forward key and the jump button and you move both up and forward splitting forward momentum with vertical heights. I mean I can't tell you how nice it would be to be standing at the base of a cliff and be able to lift straight up and then at the last minute, thrust forward to step onto the cliff rather than having to get a massively long running start to accomplish the same thing.

Vertical lift could be easily tweaked to keep mechs from jumping massively high. Standing still and jumping straight up,which realistically requires alot more thrust, might only get a mech with 5 JJs equiped 10m off the ground. Running full speed and doing the same thing might net 15-20m. This way Poptarting gets more difficult because you don't get alot of height from just standing behind a ridge and jumping up and down. However if you apply skill and jump snipe using movement and lateral motion, you get more bang for the buck out of jumping.

Also this system would still allow for highly mobile striker type mechs.

This is how JJs should work anyway, but I am not holding my breath.

Also I have to agree with your perception on how JJs are working right now. I seem to get decent distance but no height when jumping, even on max JJs mediums and lights. I try to jump over relatively low buildings, ridges of cliffs and I find myself instead smacking into them face first and then slowly sliding up the wall as I grind my face against it. Occasionally will be able to grind my face up the wall far enough to get over or on top of what I am trying to jump. However, I somehow don't think running 129 kph, then igniting my JJs so I can faceplant into the side of a building is how JJs are suppose to work.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 22 July 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[Sephlock]

Viktor Drake, on 22 July 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Also I have to agree with your perception on how JJs are working right now. I seem to get decent distance but no height when jumping, even on max JJs mediums and lights. I try to jump over relatively low buildings, ridges of cliffs and I find myself instead smacking into them face first and then slowly sliding up the wall as I grind my face against it. Occasionally will be able to grind my face up the wall far enough to get over or on top of what I am trying to jump. However, I somehow don't think running 129 kph, then igniting my JJs so I can faceplant into the side of a building is how JJs are suppose to work.

No no, this is PERFECT! Can't you guys see that this is just the setup for the introduction of the Axman?

[Roadkill]

Lefty Lucy, on 22 July 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I mean the one thing they've ever had going for them is good mobility, and an F14 Tomcat weighs 18 tons, and can sustain full flight at over mach 2. I think a mech that only weighs about 50% more should be pretty agile.

Agile != fast.

That F14 can't turn worth a damn at mach 2. Even at much slower speeds and with the wings deployed, the F14 is only relatively agile compared to other jets. It's horribly clumsy even compared to a semi, and that's while using fully-deployed and optimized aerodynamic features to make it as agile as possible.

Plus, the JJ that lights are using are lighter and presumably less powerful than the ones that an assault is using. There's no reason a light should be any more agile in a jump than an assault if they're using the same number of JJ.

WarHippy, on 22 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Yes, well with your space shuttle it does take it a moment to get going, but once it does it goes high and fast. The current JJ don't do that at all. As for popping the mech off the ground I always assumed the mech itself jumped as it fired the jets to give it that extra little lift at the start.

The best humans can barely clear half their height in a vertical jump. (Not high jump... unless you're going to put collisions/falling down on landing back in the game.) So yeah I sort of assume the same thing, but it still doesn't make for any real "pop" as a Mech leaves the ground. The JJ are doing the bulk of the work.

[Ultimax]

Jake Hendricks, on 22 July 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Then for poptarting just set the target reticle doesn't show (switches off) when jumping. If you can blind shoot while poptarting the you're ok, if not then wait till your on the ground to shoot.

Wow that's actually brilliant.

I'd just add that it should then leave the reticule for pulse lasers.


You want to fire with accuracy while jumping? You need pulse lasers.



I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread.

JJs now are no longer fun, they are only barely usable for "mobility".

PGI needs to stop hammering the fun out of things like the Victor's brawl ability or JJs in some bizarre effort to curb poptarting but not actually curb poptarting.


Unfortunately when I tweeted it to Russ the answer I got back was that this is partially to give clear roles to some mechs.


Which is what I thought JJs did in the first place, give a clear mobility role to those mechs.


Instead of improving terrain code for land-locked mechs, fixing invisible walls, curbing perfect convergence through any number of mechanics, curbing jump sniping through any other number of mechanics - we get JJs hammered into their currently awful state.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 July 2014 - 01:15 PM.