174 replies to this topic

[Kyle Polulak]

Please let us know your thoughts on the changes to Jump-Jets in this patch

• Jump-Jets heat enabled
  • Heat increases on a linear scale with each additional Jump-Jet.
    
  • Thrust increases on a linear scale with each additional Jump-Jet.

[Sergeant Miles]

Please post a more detailed description or examples of how much Jump Jets create heat ; how long it last, how much thrust difference; some more examples...

since I use jump jets on nearly all my favorite mech's...

I am also very concerned that the new module that helps with falling damage has also been matched better with mech's that have jump jets and mech's that don't.

There should be two different modules for falling. One for mech's designed with jumped jets and one that for mechs that will never have jump jets.

The module for jumping mech's should absorb twice as much falling damage.. or you should be able to carry 2 of these modules on mechs that jump.

You developers increased the thrust and heat of jump jets, but you didn't balance the Module for falling damage I bet.

I'm hoping that this jumping and landing damage works better after this. I've tested using jump jet landing with and without the Module for fall damage reduction and didn't notice any difference so far.

I us mostly lights and with a 30+% reduction in fall damage from that Module , I should take NO damage in a controlled landing with these jumps jets & increased thrust. RIGHT?

Because before, the damage always seemed the same. No matter how much thrust u have.. you still take some damage on a controlled landing after jumping and you should take NONE, or so little ...that it's a small percentage of a damage point ......that needs to add up after several jumps and landings.

Mech's that jump by design should have vastly better systems for shock adsorption when thrusters are engaged during a landing.. not a fall.

But landing and falling are rated the same.. which just seems wrong on mech's designed for jumping.

Edited by Sergeant Miles, 15 July 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[Koniks]

I agree that it would be good to see the specific values. Are the heat changes uniform across all jump jet classes? Is thrust uniform for each class of jump jet?

The tooltip in the UI should show max height per jump jet with a unit of measurement as well as how much thrust it puts out in m/s.

Edited by Mizeur, 15 July 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[Panzerbjorn]

Sergeant Miles, on 15 July 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

There should be to different modules for falling. One for mech's designed with jumped jets and one that for mechs that will never have jump jets.

The module for jumping mech's should absorb twice as much falling damage.. or you should be able to carry 2 of these modules on mechs that jump.

You developers increased the thrust and heat of jump jets, but you didn't balance the Module for falling damage I bet.

I think you completely miss the point. Mechs with JJs do not need the fall damage module - because they have jump jets! If you feather your jets coming down, you will not exceed the -30ft/sec fall rate and therefore not take leg damage. If you're a pop-tart, that means conserve JJ fuel so you have 20% left for feathering your landing. There should be no better module for JJ-equipped mechs because it should require skill instead of an "easy button" of installing a module to allow you to get away with not having skill. Jump jets have always been a somewhat risky proposition in BT/MW games in the past and should continue to have risks and consequences. You can still equip the Fall Dmg Reduction module, and it will aid your Light mechs a lot in reducing dmg on coming back down to the ground, so you're already covered if you forget to reserve fuel for the landing or need to make an emergency fall off a cliff with no juice left.

Personally, I applaud PGI on the changes, they are sensible and well-balanced IMHO.

[Auren]

So, if you deliberately overheat while jumpjetting, you can power up while still at 100% or above heat and then you get to watch your mech overheat and melt.

Also, smacking people with your mech and jets is a thing now. Its a horror show for both parties.

if you stand on someone and then feather your jets, you can fall through the earth.

Edited by Auren, 15 July 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[Midnight Camel]

I thought one of the stated goals of the jumpjet changes was to make it so that effective jumping required max or near-max jump jets and that thrust was going to scale linearly as well as heat. So now we have linear heat scaling but no thrust scaling so there is more incentive than ever to have only one jumpjet. Am I missing something?

[Auren]

BrassyJack, on 15 July 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

I thought one of the stated goals of the jumpjet changes was to make it so that effective jumping required max or near-max jump jets and that thrust was going to scale linearly as well as heat. So now we have linear heat scaling but no thrust scaling so there is more incentive than ever to have only one jumpjet. Am I missing something?

You don't go anywhere with one jet.

[Midnight Camel]

Yeah, they corrected the patch notes after I read them. Disregard my grumbling.

[Zolaz]

The max distance you can get with a TBR is 16.8 m while a GRF or WVR can go 40.2 m.

[xe N on]

I performed some test in the grounds. The jump jet nerf is great and finally hit the right builds. While my poptart Dragon Slayer with 4 jump jets seems to be next to unaffected in it's game play, my lighter mechs equipped only one to few jumpjets like Jenner, Firestarter and Shadowhawks got shafted realy hard.

That's excactly what the community wanted and the right way to improve balance .... NOT!

Epic facepalm would be an understatement ...

Edited by xe N on, 15 July 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[Felbombling]

I'm not exactly sure what you're aiming for here, but I have some basic numbers from my three jump-capable Mechs to compare.

Cataphract

1 JJ = 4.5m
2 JJ = 9.0m
3 JJ = 13.5m
4 JJ = 18m

Summoner

5 JJ = 22.6m

Victor

1 JJ = 5.9m
2 JJ = 11.9m
3 JJ = 17.9m
4 JJ = 23.9m

My Cataphract and Victor were previously set up with two JJ each, which gave me enough boost at 11.3m to effectively jump snipe. From what I've seen so far, I could probably get by on the Cataphract with two JJ, or find an extra ton somewhere to get up to 13.5m and I can essentially leave the Victor as is, because I can still jump 11.9m with the two current Jump Jets.

Oh... and my seventy ton Summoner with five Jump Jets cannot jump as high as my eighty ton Victor with four Jump Jets.

I'm not sure, but I think your numbers are either off a bit, or you didn't have a clear vision of what you were trying to accomplish with these changes.

=========================================================================

The new Jump Jet mechanics don’t seem to make much sense one Mech to the next, even when different engine ratings are taken into effect. As my numbers show above, the 70-ton Cataphract requires perhaps another Jump Jet to continue jump sniping as before, while it could still get by with two. The jumping performance of the Victor actually IMPROVED with this change for two Jump Jets and with four Jump Jets can jump effectively higher than the 70-ton Summoner with five Jump Jets.

I think I know what you were going for, PGI… you want to incentivise the use of more Jump Jets, and penalize players who wish to or use a single Jump Jet on their Mechs.

If you want to incentivise Jump Jet use, calculate for and provide obvious benefits for mounting the maximum number of Jump Jets. To that end, you need to do a couple of things…

• Give a minimal value for a single Jump Jet across the board, for all Mechs. I suggest 2m… enough to get airborne and hop over small obstacles and obstructions.
• Calculate the maximum allowable Jump Jets for each chassis by dividing the current engine rating by the Mech tonnage, rounded down. This could of course fluctuate, based on the chassis and/or engine rating.
• Place a value of 6m of jump height per maximum allowable Jump Jet per Mech, and then apply a harsh curve of returns for using less Jump Jets than the maximum.

Now Mechs with smaller engines are not penalized for lack of Jump Jet potential, while Mechs that have the engine rating to support multiple Jump Jets only see maximum benefit if they take the full allotment. Using my numbers and the numbers from the recent patch, let me show you what we currently have with the Cataphract, and what I propose for an engine rating in the 280-340 range [four Jump Jet maximum].



Now let’s take a look at the Victor with a 400 rated engine, granting up to five maximum allowable Jump Jets. On this chart I follow the progression that the current 5.9m per Jump Jet used on the Victor from this patch. It gets us ultimately to the same place, but my system would incentivise more the use of five Jump Jets, rather than two… which currently still provides enough lift to accomplish jump sniping. This is where you missed the mark, PGI… you didn’t fix the Victor as a jump sniper… you solidified it at two Jump Jets.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 16 July 2014 - 06:08 AM.

[Cabal LV426]

Jumpjets thrust become far from Battletech concept. My Summoner with 5 JJ can't even jump on the building. High mobile mech? Not at all. 5 tonns for what?
5JJ? I don't feel it. Summoner Jumping like 1 JJ

[xe N on]

StaggerCheck, on 15 July 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Oh... and my seventy ton Summoner with five Jump Jets cannot jump as high as my eighty ton Victor with four Jump Jets.

My Shadowhawks with 4 jjs cannot jump as high as my Victors with the same amount ...

Edited by xe N on, 15 July 2014 - 12:04 PM.

[BINDLETORC]

xe N on, on 15 July 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

I performed some test in the grounds. The jump jet nerf is great and finally hit the right builds. While my poptart Dragon Slayer with 4 jump jets seems to be next to unaffected in it's game play, my lighter mechs equipped only one to few jumpjets like Jenner, Firestarter and Shadowhawks got shafted realy hard.

Have to agree. My assaults are still as good as ever as pop tarts and lights and mediums seem to be nerfed to a much larger degree.

[Sprouticus]

xe N on, on 15 July 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

My Shadowhawks with 4 jjs cannot jump as high as my Victors with the same amount ...

4 Jj on a victor is 8 tons. 4 Jj on a Shawk is 4 tons.


I am not going to judge until I see for myself, but I DO think it should not be linear. You should get more height for each JJ.

[Mizore]

The problem with poptarts is not JJs, it's the ability to do pinpoint damage while jumping... and this is still possible!

While I think the changes are a step in the right direction, I also think there's still a lot to adjust.
The jump height is still a bad joke, I want jumpjets, not "hoverjets".
And also the heat is negligible, these few % just dont matter.

[Adiuvo]

Lights go higher now with a large amount of JJs. 1 JJ on a light is no longer viable, which is a good thing. Overall I'm happy with the change with respect to lights.

Edited by Adiuvo, 15 July 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Koniks]

Sprouticus, on 15 July 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

4 Jj on a victor is 8 tons. 4 Jj on a Shawk is 4 2 tons.

[tayhimself]

Sprouticus, on 15 July 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

4 Jj on a victor is 8 tons. 4 Jj on a Shawk is 4 tons.


I am not going to judge until I see for myself, but I DO think it should not be linear. You should get more height for each JJ.

God you people have some dumb suggestions. The reason the VTR is still the best jump jet mech is because it has the HIGHEST thrust value for ANY TONNAGE jump jet. The HGN is clearly nerfed hard, while the Phract is sacrificing 1 ton for an inferior JJ that works with a lighter tonnage?

JUMP JETS - CLASS I  1  2.0  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  33.00  90t - 200t 152,000
JUMP JETS - CLASS II  1  1.0  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  68.00  80t - 90t 132,000
JUMP JETS - CLASS III  1  1.0  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  45.00  60t - 80t 108,000
JUMP JETS - CLASS IV  1  0.5  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  45.00  40t - 60t 76,000
JUMP JETS - CLASS V  1  0.5  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  37.00  20t - 40t 44,000

Edit: Numbers from Smurfy's. Look at the 68.00 number in the 2nd line. That is the vertical thrust. The first number is the horizontal thrust.

I would suggest values of myself. This keeps the TBR and VTR in check.

JUMP JETS - CLASS I  1  2.0  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  50.00  90t - 200t 152,000
JUMP JETS - CLASS II  1  1.0  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  37.00  80t - 90t 132,000
JUMP JETS - CLASS III  1  1.0  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  45.00  60t - 80t 108,000
JUMP JETS - CLASS IV  1  0.5  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  45.00  40t - 60t 76,000
JUMP JETS - CLASS V  1  0.5  10.00  Clan, InnerSphere  4.10  37.00  20t - 40t 44,000

Edited by tayhimself, 15 July 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[xe N on]

Sprouticus, on 15 July 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

4 Jj on a victor is 8 tons. 4 Jj on a Shawk is 4 tons.

Wrong. 4 jj on a Victor is 4 tons, on a SHD is 2 tons.