89 replies to this topic

[Piney II]

Tesunie, on 21 July 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

Of course, this is typically a rarity, and the examples posted above are probably "good plan, bad commander" examples... (Charge into that cave! *Commander has no idea what's in that cave or what is happening over on that section of the map*)

Commanders that are oblivious to the situation.


"You guys rush that cave and flush out those Atlases and their heavy friends and I'll LRM them when they run out of the other side."

This would be where I break from the plan.

[1453 R]

A better way to lead than barking orders or hurling little yellow bleep-bloops all over the map is to overcome First Blue Arrow Syndrome.

Anyone who's played this game for long enough will have realized by now (if they put any thought into it), that nobody, but nobody, but nobody wants to be the First Blue Arrow. The point of the spear, the front guy...the one that catches all the fire when contact is made. That said, there's a significantly higher number of players who're willing to be the Second Blue Arrow, and Third Blue Arrow is often considered an ideal place to be.

If you take yourself and go occupy the position of First Blue Arrrow, pushing aggressively into position, then you have a much higher chance of your team following you into that spot. After all, they know they already have backup, since the backup is actually front-up and is already there. It does run the risk of you getting cut off and blown to pants – there’s a point where you need to try and realize that you’re on a team with guys who’re skittish about being Fifth or Sixth Blue Arrow, let alone second or third, and there’s nothing you can do to convince them to leave their ratholes. Usually, this realization is made well after you’ve committed and aren’t going to escape with anymuch combat capability intact – but you know what? At least you know you did your job.

I’ve won a good few matches in Mordor by sheer dint of the fact that I’ve given up on getting the pugs to not blitz the Pug Zapper. Instead, I’ll rush it at speed and push into the central ring without the faintest pause – and you know what? When I started doing that, I started seeing a lot more matches where my teammates followed me into the central ring rather than bunching up at the damned entry chokepoints, and even just one or two hitters in the central ring can throw enough firepower to jam the enemy up in said chokepoints if they don’t have a First Blue Arrow guy on their side.

It’s honestly kind of amazing how much the whole thing dominoes sometimes, once you get even just one guy with enough brass under his belt to go and suck up the initial potshots and push.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tesunie, on 21 July 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I've recently been the subject of the title header in a recent game.

Here, without any names or pointing of fingers, I want to establish the concept of "Good Plan, Bad Commander". I'm sure we've all been in matches were someone comes up with a good plan (or sometimes even a bad plan), and that's always a good thing. Any plan is often better than no plan at all. However, sometimes you can have an issue with the person saying the plan and how they are saying them.

The issue I recently came across was a commander who created a decent plan for HPG Network. He told us all to "get into the center, underneath". Okay, I can see some flaws, and some strengths with this very plan. Limiting arcs of fire (friend and foe unfortunately), remove LRMs and Art/Air strikes from the equation, etc. It's a decent plan, and enough people were moving in that direction. However, the commander, in this case, spoiled the entire concept with "anyone who doesn't, leave them outside to die".

Wait... what? You will sacrifice teammates and potential armor and firepower and leave them to die, just because they didn't do what you told them to do? What about those Direwolves (or other very slow mechs people might be playing)? What if they didn't get into the basement because they weren't "fast enough"? Are we suppose to just abandon them to reside on their own and die? I do understand abandoning some teammates because it would hurt more trying to support them, but we should still try to send some aid to help them if we can, not just reside them to die alone.

So, I spoke out against the concept of abandoning teammates. I was following the group, as it's wise to stay with your team, and followed the plan, but I was having serious issues with this particular person's "command ethics". Then, it all devolved into "Just die already" from the Commander to me. Seriously? The more this commander talked, the more I wanted to just do the complete opposite actions...

After a while, things devolved even farther, as at some point, I noticed the enemy were all around one entrance. I decided, I guess in rebellion to someone whom I had no farther respect for (honestly, I was seriously temped to just DC, but I haven't done it yet, and I wasn't going to start now), to move out of the center and push the enemy from the flank. Ended up being a good idea, as I killed a shut down Jagermech, and pulled enemies from the entrance. However, the commander didn't support me at all (because of his ethics), and waited for me to die before he decided "it was time to charge".

After I died, I got a "I'm glad you died early" from the commander. Apparently... he didn't see me get that kill, and deal second most damage and assists on our team... (I'll let my stats stand for me there.) We ended up winning because of the sound plan, but that doesn't mean that the commander was a good commander.



Basically, I can agree with the plan, but some commanders (and players) need to get an attitude adjustment. It's a game, but we still shouldn't be sacrificing "people who don't listen to me". You can come up with the best of plans, but still be a bad commander. My match clearly showed me this fact. The person also didn't understand I didn't have a problem with his plans, but instead had a problem with how he presented the plan. (He was also a member of some kind of sized premade group, as his fellow lance mates also went after me, and then at the end responded over and over again "Good commander" "Good commander" "great plan" "Good commander".)

I never like the concept of "abandoning" a teammate unless it just can't be helped. That, honestly, was the only problem I had with his plan. Then his command ethics got in the way more when he told me to just die. Seriously. What commander would ask an 85 ton mech bristling with weapons and can be a great asset to the team to just die and leave... (Or any mech, as even being down one can be harmful to you.)

Though I don't like the sacrifice either, those who decide to ignore the plan, and die, cannot blame the Commander. Specially when the plan works.

I had a "Commander" yesterday who thought he was a company Gunnery Sgt. He tried being demeaning to the Slow Fatty Assaults (Which made me laugh cause I was in an Atlas that was FASTER than his Dire Wolf), But though his delivery was poor, his tactics were sound, and we not only won but us Fatties scored best for our team.

Anyway, if someone makes the effort to organize the team, and gets even a minimum of support, chances of winning are improved, those who decide to ignore the orders/suggestion get what they deserve. That includes Myself when I do it.

[Roland]

So many people complain about Terra therma, and how they hate it, but then continue to play it in the most boring and lame way possible.. Rushing center.

Matches where the fight takes place off center are universally better matches with much more interesting maneuvering.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 21 July 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

The only time where camping is effective is under the one circumstance that your team is consistently DISHING MORE DAMAGE THAN TAKING. When you are losing that mini-battle, you simply have to take a different course of action. That is why I hate camping in any PUG match... there's no guarantee your teammates will accomplish that feat with any consistency. If you're like the Lords, then you'll probably succeed more often than not, but that's them... and not the norm.

That's what makes movement more important generally... although positioning can certainly impact the match.

Sadly, so often I see pug teams camp out against each other, and one team is decidedly taking more damage that it's receiving, but once a pug team camps, it's staying camped no matter what. They'll be down one mech, then two, then three, and feel that camping is still going to somehow deliver a win for them.

[TLBFestus]

I never take command.


I occasionally make some deliberately silly, lame suggestion in team chat only to see my entire team TAKE ME UP ON IT!!


Really? Never listen when i have a good idea, but totally fall in line and go with my suicidal suggestion? god that never fails to bug me.

Also, it really ticks me off when the plan works and we roll the other team. I can't even get "silly" right.....

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 21 July 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Hiding under the center is the derpiest of the derp plans. It leads to a very boring match with little actual movement.

It is a game of patience Roland, if you are patient and your enemy isn't they will likely make that mistake of attacking in small numbers and be defeated in detail. Sometimes, the path to victory is not an exciting one. We won 7 outta 9 matches this very way one night. And I am not a patient player most matches.

[Mystere]

Roland, on 21 July 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

A bunch of you folks have played with me in the pug queue, and you have seen first hand how effective simply not being a freaking coward is.

I had a game where my team had localized 3x1 and 5x2 advantages, with the enemies surrounded. But, they were unwilling to press! They just played peekaboo while taking potshots. It was extremely frustrating.

Plus, the most cowardly of them all was running a Dire Wolf (in the 5x2 I mentioned). 4 team mates died while he tried to preserve his pristine paint. So that 5x2 advantage became a 1x2 and he died in the end ... of course.

Oh, yes. It's during Euro prime time, like within the last hour!!!

<I died in a distraction move previously and pulled away 6 of the enemy. As such I was spectating the disaster.>

Edited by Mystere, 21 July 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 21 July 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

So many people complain about Terra therma, and how they hate it, but then continue to play it in the most boring and lame way possible.. Rushing center.

I hate it primarily because people stand in the way of victory (figuratively and literally).

Quote

Matches where the fight takes place off center are universally better matches with much more interesting maneuvering.

Generally, that's because very few people suggest doing that.

I do see a lot of cap attempts on Assault, but generally thwarted on early recognition of the opfor's movement to cap the base (if you're going to do it guys, you gotta be much more sneakier than showing up on radar).

[Screech]

Bad plan, bad commander.

The sooner you can break the urge to rush center in TT the better off you will be. Sure, I have been called a derp for refusing to center rush before but it has always been at the start of a match never the end, as the results speak for them self.

I actually find TT the best map for conquest as it allows lance vs lance fights from the start which is nice diversion from the regular murder-ball approach. I do agree there is a direct correlation to peoples hatred of TT and their instinct to rush center.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Though I don't like the sacrifice either, those who decide to ignore the plan, and die, cannot blame the Commander. Specially when the plan works.

We had a saying in the Infantry, a million years ago....."Lead, Follow or get the Hell out of the way." It applies here.

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

I had a "Commander" yesterday who thought he was a company Gunnery Sgt. He tried being demeaning to the Slow Fatty Assaults (Which made me laugh cause I was in an Atlas that was FASTER than his Dire Wolf), But though his delivery was poor, his tactics were sound, and we not only won but us Fatties scored best for our team.

Weird...I don't remember playing with you. Heh. I normally tell everyone to follow the "Gut Truck" and we get in line behind the nearest Dire Whale....

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Anyway, if someone makes the effort to organize the team, and gets even a minimum of support, chances of winning are improved, those who decide to ignore the orders/suggestion get what they deserve. That includes Myself when I do it.

Absolutely. Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all. Even if all the plan consists of is "Regroup. Follow the herd. Try not to shoot each other." Beats the hell out of "just wander about and do your own thing."

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

It is a game of patience Roland, if you are patient and your enemy isn't they will likely make that mistake of attacking in small numbers and be defeated in detail. Sometimes, the path to victory is not an exciting one. We won 7 outta 9 matches this very way one night. And I am not a patient player most matches.

Actually....if you get a couple of Active Probes (Clan or IS) in the cellar on HPG, it'll shut down the ECM on top, and that changes things a LOT.

[blood4blood]

The idea that clicking a "Take Command" button in a video game actually gives you some sort of authority to give orders to complete strangers over the Internet is pretty amusing - players should never let it go their heads. It's different if you're actually on a team using voice chat and have assigned roles like drop commander beforehand, but that "follow me or else" attitude has no place in any true PUG game.

[Sandpit]

I run into it all the time. Just the other night me and a buddy were dropping 2man. We got into a match on Caustic (skirmish) and the commander called for everyone to group up where he wanted them. The problem was, that it was a really bad position to dig in. He called me out 2-3 times for "not following my plan", I just politely told him "no thanks" and snagged a couple of stragglers to set up in a better position.

If we hadn't done that, we'd have gotten steamrolled. Plans are just suggestions. Like you said, no plan<bad plan<good plan

If they want to be dbags like that, dont' sweat it, work your own strategy, and if they get belligerent just report them

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 21 July 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

I run into it all the time. Just the other night me and a buddy were dropping 2man. We got into a match on Caustic (skirmish) and the commander called for everyone to group up where he wanted them. The problem was, that it was a really bad position to dig in. He called me out 2-3 times for "not following my plan", I just politely told him "no thanks" and snagged a couple of stragglers to set up in a better position.

If we hadn't done that, we'd have gotten steamrolled. Plans are just suggestions. Like you said, no plan<bad plan<good plan

If they want to be dbags like that, dont' sweat it, work your own strategy, and if they get belligerent just report them

I had a match on Caustic where people didn't actually regroup @ D5. The group did actually group up @ D3 (don't ask why, it just happened that way) and proceeded to steamroll the enemy.

Being totally rigid in pushing the team's buttons is asking for bad results. All one hopes for is the team to just support each other and not to just hang back the whole time... someone has to take the fire for your ability to hang back and once he's down... they are eventually coming for you... so you have to put in some effort to not let that happen in the first place...

[nehebkau]

Tesunie, on 21 July 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I've recently been the subject of the title header in a recent game.

Spoiler

Here, without any names or pointing of fingers, I want to establish the concept of "Good Plan, Bad Commander". I'm sure we've all been in matches were someone comes up with a good plan (or sometimes even a bad plan), and that's always a good thing. Any plan is often better than no plan at all. However, sometimes you can have an issue with the person saying the plan and how they are saying them.

The issue I recently came across was a commander who created a decent plan for HPG Network. He told us all to "get into the center, underneath". Okay, I can see some flaws, and some strengths with this very plan. Limiting arcs of fire (friend and foe unfortunately), remove LRMs and Art/Air strikes from the equation, etc. It's a decent plan, and enough people were moving in that direction. However, the commander, in this case, spoiled the entire concept with "anyone who doesn't, leave them outside to die".

Wait... what? You will sacrifice teammates and potential armor and firepower and leave them to die, just because they didn't do what you told them to do? What about those Direwolves (or other very slow mechs people might be playing)? What if they didn't get into the basement because they weren't "fast enough"? Are we suppose to just abandon them to reside on their own and die? I do understand abandoning some teammates because it would hurt more trying to support them, but we should still try to send some aid to help them if we can, not just reside them to die alone.

So, I spoke out against the concept of abandoning teammates. I was following the group, as it's wise to stay with your team, and followed the plan, but I was having serious issues with this particular person's "command ethics". Then, it all devolved into "Just die already" from the Commander to me. Seriously? The more this commander talked, the more I wanted to just do the complete opposite actions...

After a while, things devolved even farther, as at some point, I noticed the enemy were all around one entrance. I decided, I guess in rebellion to someone whom I had no farther respect for (honestly, I was seriously temped to just DC, but I haven't done it yet, and I wasn't going to start now), to move out of the center and push the enemy from the flank. Ended up being a good idea, as I killed a shut down Jagermech, and pulled enemies from the entrance. However, the commander didn't support me at all (because of his ethics), and waited for me to die before he decided "it was time to charge".

After I died, I got a "I'm glad you died early" from the commander. Apparently... he didn't see me get that kill, and deal second most damage and assists on our team... (I'll let my stats stand for me there.) We ended up winning because of the sound plan, but that doesn't mean that the commander was a good commander.



Basically, I can agree with the plan, but some commanders (and players) need to get an attitude adjustment. It's a game, but we still shouldn't be sacrificing "people who don't listen to me". You can come up with the best of plans, but still be a bad commander. My match clearly showed me this fact. The person also didn't understand I didn't have a problem with his plans, but instead had a problem with how he presented the plan. (He was also a member of some kind of sized premade group, as his fellow lance mates also went after me, and then at the end responded over and over again "Good commander" "Good commander" "great plan" "Good commander".)

I never like the concept of "abandoning" a teammate unless it just can't be helped. That, honestly, was the only problem I had with his plan. Then his command ethics got in the way more when he told me to just die. Seriously. What commander would ask an 85 ton mech bristling with weapons and can be a great asset to the team to just die and leave... (Or any mech, as even being down one can be harmful to you.)

You should also take this into consideration -- its something one of my professors taught me:

The traits that define psychosis, or a psychotic, are on a sliding scale. This means that psycopaths are on a gray-scale. In any population psychopathic traits are evident in 30% of the population. In fact, many of the traits that we deem as being beneficial in a good leader are also traits that are common among psychopaths (Excellent at manipulating people do do what they want, an exaggerated sense of self importance, tends to be a fanatasist, gets vicious if challenged, demands absolute loyalty, has a high level of charm (when required)).

I find it beneficial to keep that in mind, specially in the inter-webs and accept that 30% of the time I will encounter people with some degree of impairment.

Edited by nehebkau, 21 July 2014 - 01:02 PM.

[Utilyan]

Tesunie, on 21 July 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

OP,

Having a commander, even a bossy kid who has no idea what the hell he is doing...........is the most ABSOLUTE BEST TREASURE you will ever have.

Don't take it so serious. Stop being yourself and have fun.

Next time you have a crappy commander......PLAY WITH IT. Be the sergeant that barks whatever the commander says louder......

You should have said "THATS RIGHT GET UP HERE OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!"

You kinda denied yourself some fun in order to put out something your trying to prove to yourself "real life". This ain't the place to do that.

You need Urbanmech in your life as your personal mech and savior.

Your entitled to a great sigh of relief and have fun. Or you could have even roleplayed how you feel......"no I can't leave my brothers! and run out to protect them". Being submissive and being punked around can be fun too. Like when someone TK's me I will cower and beg for mercy, or say "yes sir, I'll move faster!" or run while the com is filled with "we are under attack save me!"

Do yourself a favor don't get whiney and I say this for tactical advice too, You should be like a fricken samurai ninja warrior. You should have no mind, and be completely focused on piloting. I ain't seen a bad-S yet, He's going to torso head shot one mf while his arms headshot another at the same time!!!! and his LRMs are killing someone else.....so he'll be killing 3 mfers at the same time. The ultimate warrior will win with a bad plan, bad commander and his team trying to kill him too. Everyone is a noob and we are going to have to wait a while till he shows up.

Bottom line don't take it serious. If your goal is have fun, have fun. If your goal is to bring a A-GAME your not going to accomplish it with whining, daydreaming or thinking in mind, but be refined into a living weapon.

[Sandpit]

Utilyan, on 21 July 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

OP,

Having a commander, even a bossy kid who has no idea what the hell he is doing...........is the most ABSOLUTE BEST TREASURE you will ever have.

Don't take it so serious. Stop being yourself and have fun.

Next time you have a crappy commander......PLAY WITH IT. Be the sergeant that barks whatever the commander says louder......

You should have said "THATS RIGHT GET UP HERE OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!"

You kinda denied yourself some fun in order to put out something your trying to prove to yourself "real life". This ain't the place to do that.

You need Urbanmech in your life as your personal mech and savior.

Your entitled to a great sigh of relief and have fun. Or you could have even roleplayed how you feel......"no I can't leave my brothers! and run out to protect them". Being submissive and being punked around can be fun too. Like when someone TK's me I will cower and beg for mercy, or say "yes sir, I'll move faster!" or run while the com is filled with "we are under attack save me!"

Do yourself a favor don't get whiney and I say this for tactical advice too, You should be like a fricken samurai ninja warrior. You should have no mind, and be completely focused on piloting. I ain't seen a bad-S yet, He's going to torso head shot one mf while his arms headshot another at the same time!!!! and his LRMs are killing someone else.....so he'll be killing 3 mfers at the same time. The ultimate warrior will win with a bad plan, bad commander and his team trying to kill him too. Everyone is a noob and we are going to have to wait a while till he shows up.

Bottom line don't take it serious. If your goal is have fun, have fun. If your goal is to bring a A-GAME your not going to accomplish it with whining, daydreaming or thinking in mind, but be refined into a living weapon.

I like you

[Mazzyplz]

you should always listen to the commander - if the team lost just tell him he sux at commanding; i think most commanders will take the blame.

the worst scenario is when the team just does whatever they want even though there is a plan laid out. that takes the chances of winning from 50% to 10%

[DAYLEET]

Cion, on 21 July 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Smack talk is generally a complete waste of effort and, in my opinion / experience, shows a lack of self esteem.

Never use personal insult or worse threaten to take action like kill or let someone die BUT always bark orders if you are going to command. USE CAPS SO PEOPLE CAN READ EASILY! I stopped taking command a long time ago, last game i did it was BC2 on pc. I used to constantly bark at my team and IT WORKS. Because it tells people others want to win, just like them and they would rather play with you than alone. It's not about you having the best idea ever, it's about motivating people. Some feel it's over and fall back to sniping and camping and generaly not doing **** until some ******* start barking at them. Look at my sig for an exemple. More than once i turned a fps match because others saw that it was not over and others were willing to try. It sucks to feel alone in a team game and it's easy to abandon. Like i said i got tired to be that guy, it does burn energy. It is a lot harder to do in MWO because first the gameplay is much slower and regrouping is much harder, and once you are like 4 mech down it's going to be realy hard to overcome but it is possible.

I found people playing MWO very unresponsive also, getting them to understand why on a given map it's the worse possible idea to go right and leave your base open when you CAN'T possibly access the enemys base and most always place yourself between 2 enemy group, they will still go right because on skirmish and conquest it works, but it's fkin assault ffs ><.

>As a commander, Always call good try when you lose and always call good job when you win and do it in team chat, leave the good game open chat for the magical people from happy land

>>As a commander, Dont expect Everyone to follow orders. First, your plan should not require it, second, the people out of place are likely to play a role as important as the main force and a small bit of chaos will put an enemy off balance when your team seems to be doing something together. Do ask the campers wtf they are doing if you dont feel they are activly in the fight but leave flankers and guerrilla fighters alone.

Edited by DAYLEET, 21 July 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 21 July 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

1) We had a saying in the Infantry, a million years ago....."Lead, Follow or get the Hell out of the way." It applies here.



2) Weird...I don't remember playing with you. Heh. I normally tell everyone to follow the "Gut Truck" and we get in line behind the nearest Dire Whale....



Absolutely. Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all. Even if all the plan consists of is "Regroup. Follow the herd. Try not to shoot each other." Beats the hell out of "just wander about and do your own thing."



3) Actually....if you get a couple of Active Probes (Clan or IS) in the cellar on HPG, it'll shut down the ECM on top, and that changes things a LOT.

1) LOL I was saying that in '83... During High School!

2) If it were us together you'd remember It was the Dire Wolf that was calling the other assaults Fatties... I was faster than him but I was regulated to being the Fattie?

3)... Arty on your own head? Dude, I like your Phuleish thinking!