24 replies to this topic

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

These are the canon jump jet stats for a Timberwolf S.

Jump jet distance: 150 meters.

These are MWO jump jet stats for a Timberwolf S.

Jump jet distance: 21.09 meters.

Pre nerf jump jets were much weaker in this game than they are in TT.

If our goal is to make jump jets canon as they exist in the original battletech universe (as some claim).

We need to do two things.

#1 Make jump jets exponentially stronger.
#2 Decrease let damage by a significant margin.

This as ridiculous as it might sound, fixes the poptart / jump sniper problem.

The problems we have with poptarts and jump snipers were originally created by PGI nerfing jump jets from being able to jump 100 meters down to 20 meters.

Poptarts and jump snipers accelerate slowly on liftoff, their rate of climb (and fall) is extremely slow. This makes it easy to target mechs while in the air as you're not moving very fast.

If mechs jumped higher and had higher rates of acceleration & climb, it would be more difficult to shoot someone while jump jets were propelling you upwards. Your mech would be moving at a faster rate making shots tougher to line up.

Hence the first solution to poptarts and jumpsnipers is to make them elevate and fall at a faster rate so they have a tougher time being accurate.

Another issue with jump jets is there is no minimum jump height.

Its possible to use jump jets to elevate yourself just high enough to shoot someone then drop back into cover before they can respond. Its also possible to press the jump jet button repeatedly to decrease damage.

The solution is for a minimum jump distance to go into effect if the button is pressed.

Instead of being able to jump just high enough to take a shot. Mechs should have a set minimum distance of 10-20 meters. This would prevent make poptarts and jump snipers easier to hit as they wouldn't be able to control their height as well. Instead of jumping just high enough to hit without being hit, they would elevate to a minimum height that would leave them exposed if they weren't skillful in negociating distances.

This would mean instead of being able to jump just high enough to clear an obstacle they might jump 5 meters above an obstacle leaving themselves exposed.

Anywayz, good idea / bad idea? What do people think?

.

[FupDup]

PGI could probably take most of the JJ stats straight out of MW:LL. Jets there gave you a fast and powerful kick rather than turning you into a hovering goodyear blimp like MW4.

MWLL:



MW4/MWO:

Edited by FupDup, 20 July 2014 - 11:08 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

PGI could probably take most of the JJ stats straight out of MW:LL. Jets there gave you a fast and powerful kick rather than turning you into a hovering goodyear blimp like MW4.

Just fix sniping so that jump snipers were less OP then they can fix jump jets in several ways.

[John80sk]

+1 for MW:LL style jumpjets. I didn't play the mod, but from what I've heard/seen on youtube they look significantly more fun than MWO's.

If I were to design them I think I would make each JJ cause you to jump a set distance. Each additional jet would provide an additional "charge" and would move you the same distance.

So you would hit your jets once and go 30m (arbitrary number btw), if you hit them in the air again you would go another 30m, or you could land and save your charge.

I would also significantly increase jumpjet recharge though, so once you use up your jets you'll be waiting a while to use them again. This would make max jumpjets always the best choice for poptarts, as it would allow you to fire the most times before having to recharge.

Edited by John80sk, 20 July 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[Voidcrafter]

I think they're perfect now.
I loooong waited for those times to come - times that would allow my brawler builds to not be obsolete.
Times when there wont be any 80+ ton mechs jumping around with a single JJ or two, making fun of all the other builds players chose to pick.
Times when a single JJ allow you to get around maps like the Canyons without giving you the advantage of being able to pop, shot a whole 30+ alpha before anyone could react on your dramatic entrance and fall back into your stone sanctuary after.
Times that give all those meta slaves something to fear.
And guess what - they're almost gone - most of the poptarting madness came to an end.

I am happy with it as I(and many others I believe) can shine once again in their dusty old brawler builds that were left behind when PGI started to release mechs with JJ that many people mistaken for poptarts.
I was pushed and forced toward adapt to all the metas meanwhile - to do way too much silly tings just to achieve something that should've been way easier - putting the others in my own game(it was way harder than the effort a poptart should've put into putting you in his own game).
I adapted and prevailed most of the time.
Now you do the same.
Without being selfish.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

XX Sulla XX, on 20 July 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

Just fix sniping so that jump snipers were less OP then they can fix jump jets in several ways.

1. The problem with jump jets is when you're using them you don't feel like you're moving. Your rate of ascent is slow. Your mech feels rock solid while in the air. Airborne mechs are too stable.

2. Due to jump jets carrying you upwards slowly, its too easy to line up shots while you're in the air.

3. The solution is for jump jets to carry mechs upward at a faster rate. If you're moving upwards faster, its more difficult to line up your shots. Its tougher to jump snipe without exposing yourself to enemy fire. Etc.

John80sk, on 20 July 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

If I were to design them I think I would make each JJ cause you to jump a set distance. Each additional jet would provide an additional "charge" and would move you the same distance.

I would also significantly increase jumpjet recharge though, so once you use up your jets you'll be waiting a while to use them again. This would make max jumpjets always the best choice for poptarts, as it would allow you to fire the most times before having to recharge.

Yeah, that's how I thought they would do it.

Like say each jump jet comes with two variables.

A.) A thruster climb rate. ex. 1 meter ascent per second per jump jet. 2 jump jets your upwards velocity climb rate would be 2 meters per seond. 5 jump jets would be 5 meters per second and so on.

B.) A thruster burn time. Maybe 5 seconds of burn per jump jet.

With the current implementation, the climb rate is so slow it doesn't feel like you're moving at all when you're using jump jets. Everything feels so stable its way too easy to line up shots in mid air and jump snipe.

Climb rates should be higher. We would benefit from that feeling of motion. Mid air shots would be tougher to pull off if mechs rose and fell at faster speeds.

Voidcrafter, on 21 July 2014 - 12:13 AM, said:

Times that give all those meta slaves something to fear.
And guess what - they're almost gone - most of the poptarting madness came to an end.

Poptart madness came to an end? lol

Nah, I doubt that. If anything I would guess poptarts feel sorry for forum posters who air grievances against poptarts.

That's the only reason for any supposed decline.

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 21 July 2014 - 06:04 AM.

[Malleus011]

JJ's are kind of pathetic now. My Catapult with max JJ's apparently can't jump over the head of a MWO Atlas.

[Gas Guzzler]

Voidcrafter, on 21 July 2014 - 12:13 AM, said:

I think they're perfect now.
I loooong waited for those times to come - times that would allow my brawler builds to not be obsolete.
Times when there wont be any 80+ ton mechs jumping around with a single JJ or two, making fun of all the other builds players chose to pick.
Times when a single JJ allow you to get around maps like the Canyons without giving you the advantage of being able to pop, shot a whole 30+ alpha before anyone could react on your dramatic entrance and fall back into your stone sanctuary after.
Times that give all those meta slaves something to fear.
And guess what - they're almost gone - most of the poptarting madness came to an end.

I am happy with it as I(and many others I believe) can shine once again in their dusty old brawler builds that were left behind when PGI started to release mechs with JJ that many people mistaken for poptarts.
I was pushed and forced toward adapt to all the metas meanwhile - to do way too much silly tings just to achieve something that should've been way easier - putting the others in my own game(it was way harder than the effort a poptart should've put into putting you in his own game).
I adapted and prevailed most of the time.
Now you do the same.
Without being selfish.

For some mechs they are fine now. The Highlander got very screwed by this last set of JJ nerfs, and it was also screwed by the previous round of JJ thrust adjustments. You obviously don't drive Highlanders or you wouldn't say "they are perfect now".

10 tons of JJs, should offer a significant amount of altitude. Not this measly 33 meters (it was 62 meters prior to the last patch).

[General Taskeen]

If anyone is wondering what the last version of JJ's look like in MW:LL, here it is (they modeled it as closely to TT-Battletech as possible):

[Noth]

I Zeratul I, on 21 July 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

2. Due to jump jets carrying you upwards slowly, its too easy to line up shots while you're in the air.

3. The solution is for jump jets to carry mechs upward at a faster rate. If you're moving upwards faster, its more difficult to line up your shots. Its tougher to jump snipe without exposing yourself to enemy fire. Etc.

These are not true. Shots are typically lined up near the top and when falling to avoid the shake caused by jump jets. Faster accent would not fix the issue.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

1. The problem with jump jets is when you're using them you don't feel like you're moving. Your rate of ascent is slow. Your mech feels rock solid while in the air. Airborne mechs are too stable.

2. Due to jump jets carrying you upwards slowly, its too easy to line up shots while you're in the air.

3. The solution is for jump jets to carry mechs upward at a faster rate. If you're moving upwards faster, its more difficult to line up your shots. Its tougher to jump snipe without exposing yourself to enemy fire. Etc.

The problem is tho the top players are good enough to line up shots with the new style of jump jets. And they would be harder to hit doing so. So until you fix the amount of front loaded pin point damage they can do from range you cant fix jump jets.

[Voidcrafter]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 July 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

For some mechs they are fine now. The Highlander got very screwed by this last set of JJ nerfs, and it was also screwed by the previous round of JJ thrust adjustments. You obviously don't drive Highlanders or you wouldn't say "they are perfect now".

10 tons of JJs, should offer a significant amount of altitude. Not this measly 33 meters (it was 62 meters prior to the last patch).

Yea and tbh I feel sorry for those, who used jumpjetting only for more options and maneurability and not for poptarting - but truth to be told(in my experience at least) the numbers of those toward the numbers of the ones exploiting jumping mechanics(for me that's what poptarting was) is probably something like 1.5/8.5.
For me JJs feel just where they should be, cause I've always used them to get around obstacles - and though I agree the climb rates should be higher - 1/2 JJs on mech should feel just like now.
poptarting SHOULD NOT be a valid option while NOT carrying the max JJ count - rather than that JJs should be an option to get around terrain if they're not on the maxed value.

So yea - even if there're more adjustments to be made - I like how it feels now and how rare I see people go full poptart(in comparison with the past two months).
I like that.

[Gas Guzzler]

Voidcrafter, on 21 July 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Yea and tbh I feel sorry for those, who used jumpjetting only for more options and maneurability and not for poptarting - but truth to be told(in my experience at least) the numbers of those toward the numbers of the ones exploiting jumping mechanics(for me that's what poptarting was) is probably something like 1.5/8.5.
For me JJs feel just where they should be, cause I've always used them to get around obstacles - and though I agree the climb rates should be higher - 1/2 JJs on mech should feel just like now.
poptarting SHOULD NOT be a valid option while NOT carrying the max JJ count - rather than that JJs should be an option to get around terrain if they're not on the maxed value.

So yea - even if there're more adjustments to be made - I like how it feels now and how rare I see people go full poptart(in comparison with the past two months).
I like that.

Poptarting doesn't require a whole lot of altitude frankly. And I'm not even talking about mechs using 1 JJ. I'm talking about a Heavy Metal (which has a special amount of JJs for a Highlander, 5 when the standard is 3) that can't use its Jump Jets to clear all but the most basic obstacles. In my opinion, the nerf should have been heavy handed against using 1 JJ, but barely effect using max Jump Jets. I just don't understand what they were doing when they did the Highlander. Max jump jets gives roughly half the max altitude that it did before. They severely punished the large tonnage investment into giving the Highlanders max jets, which just seems ridiculous to me. The Highlander wasn't even a premier jump sniper and hasn't been for a while.

I understand you like the reduction in jump sniping, but they can adjust the HGNs jets to make it more worth the 8-10 tonnage investment without rolling back the adjustments to other chassis.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 21 July 2014 - 09:05 AM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Noth, on 21 July 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

These are not true. Shots are typically lined up near the top and when falling to avoid the shake caused by jump jets. Faster accent would not fix the issue.

It is easier to jump snipe in a cataphract or dragonslayer than it is with a spider.

Assaults with jump jets have slower ascent and descent rates, less inertia and greater in air stability. They're easier to control when airborne and more predictable.

This makes them popular platforms for jump snipers.

Based on the above: jump sniping is easier with mechs that ascend / descend at slower rates.

You are right that most players have no choice but to pick their shots on their way up. They hold the jump jet button until they gain enough height, then they quickly aim & fire. With a higher ascent / descent rate they'll have a narrower timeframe in which to aim & shoot.

They'll be rising and falling at a faster rate and it'll give them less of a window.

Whereas they might have had 1-2 seconds to make their shot in the past, they might only have 0.5 to 1.0 seconds with faster ascent / descent. Or less.

To compensate, they'll probably have to jump higher than they normally would to give themselves more time to line up their crosshairs. This would lead to them being more exposed and give other players a better chance of spotting and hitting them.

The alternative is jumping then pressing the jump jet button on the way down to hover.

Which we all know doesn't work due to the weird bug that tugs your crosshairs to the left when hovering.

.

[TygerLily]

General Taskeen, on 21 July 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

If anyone is wondering what the last version of JJ's look like in MW:LL, here it is (they modeled it as closely to TT-Battletech as possible):

Man, I really do like this style of JJ's!

High hang time would go a long way toward curbing poptarts...

High 'landing recover' would bad for brawlers (poptarts don't care since they can drop behind cover and "recover" safely) It'd be better for a brawler to blast forward and land guns blazing.

It'd be cool of there were two types of JJ's...vertical (poptarting) and horizontal (brawling). AND while we're at it, make the horizontals half weight...xD

And a one-use consumable JJ module. Equal to 4 JJ's of that weight class. Use like a regular JJ, fuel doesn't replenish...good for brawlers to get to where they need to go (or to bite off more than they can chew!)

Edited by TygerLily, 21 July 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[Screech]

Not sure how people think that the MW:LL version of JJ would fly(no pun intended) when MWO version was nerfed due to constant QQ. The stream of cries of "OP" would drown the forum for weeks.

I now think of JJ as a 1 slot, 1/2-1 ton hill climbing module. Anything more seems a waste.

[Mcgral18]

Screech, on 21 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Not sure how people think that the MW:LL version of JJ would fly(no pun intended) when MWO version was nerfed due to constant QQ. The stream of cries of "OP" would drown the forum for weeks.

I now think of JJ as a 1 slot, 1/2-1 ton hill climbing module. Anything more seems a waste.

Mainly because the poptarts will be forced to expose themselves. There is no just expose the weapons.

You'll be rocketed into the air, well above your cover. You'll also be stationary at one point, easily hit by any ranged weaponry.

A high risk, high reward tactic. Instead of last weeks low risk high reward.

This patch killed any jumping whatsoever.

[Mechteric]

Screech, on 21 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Not sure how people think that the MW:LL version of JJ would fly(no pun intended) when MWO version was nerfed due to constant QQ. The stream of cries of "OP" would drown the forum for weeks.

I now think of JJ as a 1 slot, 1/2-1 ton hill climbing module. Anything more seems a waste.

Jets were nerfed due to complaints about poptarts. The MW:LL version is not as good for poptarts compared to any jets that have been in MWO. Also the jets in LL are more fun and great for brawlers. Its really win-win.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 21 July 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 21 July 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

If anyone is wondering what the last version of JJ's look like in MW:LL, here it is (they modeled it as closely to TT-Battletech as possible):

I've been looking for that video for a while now, it'll make a great forum weapon to use in favor of JJ reforms.

Edited by FupDup, 21 July 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 21 July 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

I've been looking for that video for a while now, it'll make a great forum weapon to use in favor of JJ reforms.

You could do better than that, you could test them for yourself!

http://stats.spikx.net/mwll.html

The training servers get you a few billion Cbills to test stuff with.

Free to download.

http://mw-ll.org/