481 replies to this topic

[Henree]

if there is a cost and consequence attached to running that expensive unbeateable alpha warrior with mexed out ppc gaussguns ie you will sometimes have to go stock to pay for repairs and re arm it will also open oppurtunities for new players who do not own a maxxed out mech yet.
It is hard for new players because there is no r and r, cheaper mechs have cheaper running cost and bigger profit margins

Edited by Henri Schoots, 26 July 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[Draykin]

Henri Schoots, on 26 July 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

if there is a cost and consequence attached to running that expensive unbeateable alpha warrior with mexed out ppc gaussguns ie you will sometimes have to go stock to pay for repairs and re arm it will also open oppurtunities for new players who do not own a maxxed out mech yet.

It is hard for new players because there is no r and r, cheaper mechs have cheaper running cost and bigger profit margins

If Gauss/PPC is so unbeatable, R&R will do nothing as they will never have to repair. Oh, wait, it's not unbeatable.

Also, R&R is not a friendly when it comes to new players. Sure! Cheap 'Mechs have lower repair costs! ....they also have much less C-Bill gain. Which will be sunk into repairs and rearming.

Yeeeeeaaaah, see, R&R is bad for new players. It also promotes prolific use of energy weapons, since you don't have to pay for more ammo. Meaning PPCs, ERLLs, etc. Keep in mind that, currently, MWO's income system is based pretty much off of kills and kill assists. What does that mean in a scenario with R&R? Every 'Mech ever will be built on nothing but raw killing potential. No scouts. No supports. All PPFLD. Where the PPC/Gauss combo is the absolute best build due to low ammo usage, high damage PP, and overwhelming range. That sure sounds fun. Oh, wait, no it doesn't.

You want a game that is kinder to new players and devalues the "Meta" builds? Get some better tutorials that cover how to use UAVs, Strikes, Cool Shots, etc., how to focus fire, how to target weak parts of a 'Mech, and basic understandings of the game modes. Then, get some Role Warfare up and running, where C-Bills (and possibly other rewards) are given based on certain acts (spotting, tagging, Narcing, etc.) other than kills and kill assists. Maybe then, we might have a game that supports better play for new players, and doesn't have all the "Meta", maybe. R&R is not a part of either of those two things.

[Sandpit]

Scratx, on 26 July 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Look... the fundamental issue with RnR is that it punishes new and inexperienced players while basically doing nothing to veterans, plus making premium players have an inherent advantage by being able to afford better loadouts.

Whatever you do, you can't fix something that's inherent to the very nature of the system.

What you can do is allow RnR to be opt-in either by some game mode like a hardcore CW mode where you have to use your unit's mechs and not your own (and they have their own economy and etc), or you go for a "hardcore" mode where you have a high risk, high reward model going... you get much more money for winning, but you get slapped with big repair and rearm bills because your employer isn't helping you.

Maybe you missed the part where I said new players are excluded from r&r?
Every single concern I see listed could easily be taken care of by adjusting the numbers and tweaking the system

[jaxjace]

Remove ghost heat, and we will talk.

[Sandpit]

Draykin, on 26 July 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

If Gauss/PPC is so unbeatable, R&R will do nothing as they will never have to repair. Oh, wait, it's not unbeatable.

Also, R&R is not a friendly when it comes to new players. Sure! Cheap 'Mechs have lower repair costs! ....they also have much less C-Bill gain. Which will be sunk into repairs and rearming.

Yeeeeeaaaah, see, R&R is bad for new players. It also promotes prolific use of energy weapons, since you don't have to pay for more ammo. Meaning PPCs, ERLLs, etc. Keep in mind that, currently, MWO's income system is based pretty much off of kills and kill assists. What does that mean in a scenario with R&R? Every 'Mech ever will be built on nothing but raw killing potential. No scouts. No supports. All PPFLD. Where the PPC/Gauss combo is the absolute best build due to low ammo usage, high damage PP, and overwhelming range. That sure sounds fun. Oh, wait, no it doesn't.

You want a game that is kinder to new players and devalues the "Meta" builds? Get some better tutorials that cover how to use UAVs, Strikes, Cool Shots, etc., how to focus fire, how to target weak parts of a 'Mech, and basic understandings of the game modes. Then, get some Role Warfare up and running, where C-Bills (and possibly other rewards) are given based on certain acts (spotting, tagging, Narcing, etc.) other than kills and kill assists. Maybe then, we might have a game that supports better play for new players, and doesn't have all the "Meta", maybe. R&R is not a part of either of those two things.

I am now thoroughly convinced nobody actually reads

[Sandpit]

This isn't about npe or tutorials. If you have suggestions for tweaking and adjusting feel free. If you like the idea post. If you don't like it post why so we can see how it could be adjusted.
Please don't derail it with things like npe and tutorials though please. I've already explained how it wouldn't impact new players.

[Lefty Lucy]

Sandpit, on 26 July 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

This isn't about npe or tutorials. If you have suggestions for tweaking and adjusting feel free. If you like the idea post. If you don't like it post why so we can see how it could be adjusted.
Please don't derail it with things like npe and tutorials though please. I've already explained how it wouldn't impact new players.

I think the appropriate tweak to R&R is to leave costs at zero.

[Draykin]

Sandpit, on 26 July 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

I am now thoroughly convinced nobody actually reads

And I'm quite convinced that 25 matches is not enough to make someone no longer be 'new' and definitely not long enough for players to learn everything they need to know. On top of that, I am also convinced that new players will not have immediate access to the builds that people tend to like to use and be able to fully customize. Why? Because you said only stock 'Mechs are exempt from R&R. You know what that means? New players go for the big bad Assaults. Those cost a lot. Then they want to customize. How much are they left with? Probably not much, after full customization. And then they have a bad match. Too bad they can't afford to repair all that damage, so they get mad and quit because they want to play the 'Mech they worked for.

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 26 July 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Maybe you missed the part where I said new players are excluded from r&r?
Every single concern I see listed could easily be taken care of by adjusting the numbers and tweaking the system

But players don't stop being new players after 25 games. Didn't Russ say that it takes about 100 games before player's numbers start to average out?

R&R does nothing to stop the most powerful (and common) PPC+ballistic builds. It makes them better. The weapon hurt the most by this would be SRMs since they didn't get the ammo buff every single other weapon got.

R&R would create an environment where good teams win, not only because they have better players, but because they can routinely run better mechs and equipment.

Let's just state what you want R&R to do. Is it supposed to stop people from running assaults? How do you balance R&R between Clan and IS? Is it just to stop people from using good builds? Why do we feel the need to punish bad players with repair costs? Isn't losing bad enough?

[ToxinTractor]

RnR makes sense for when they add CW.. For normal pubs tho it has too many cons for it to work. We saw it back in CBT. And I doubt no matter how much they tweak the numbers there will still be serious issues

[Sandslice]

ToxinTractor, on 26 July 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

RnR makes sense for when they add CW.. For normal pubs tho it has too many cons for it to work. We saw it back in CBT. And I doubt no matter how much they tweak the numbers there will still be serious issues

It was even worse in CBT detailed campaign play: imagine if you had to pay a token R&R on each 'Mech you own, regardless of whether you deployed it, simply because you own it. Imagine if repairs took time as well as money, and had a chance to deal even more damage including permanent negative quirks.
Imagine if getting cored by artillery or ammo explosion annihilated your 'Mech, removing it from your 'Mech Bay permanently (but also negated its salvage completely for the same reason.)

Oh, and engines are tonnage-matched: you can't simply pull a 300 XLE out of a Jenner and slap it into a Griffin. (Leaving aside the fact that 300 XLE doesn't add speed to either of them, of course.)

#CBTLife

----

@OP: There is one other drawback that you might encounter. We already have people afraid to take damage, and playing some weird pseudo-tactic rooted in that fear. R&R would create a justifying feedback loop in this behaviour, by punishing people for taking damage. That's not something we need in the game right now.

[Miken]

Sandpit, on 26 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Stock mechs don't pay for R&R

Everyone would have a salvage chance but the techs, component destruction, and such would increase the chances of getting it.

Agreed. Stock mechs must be free of R&R but not Hero and Champions, because they are already modifyed.

About salvage. I think otherwise. Players needs to save more components of enemy mechs alive. Makes cockpit/legs shots. More saved components = more equpments = more chance to salvage.

[KharnZor]

If the cost of R&R was capped at a percentage of what you earn, say 30 or 40% per drop i think that would be reasonable.

[Wintersdark]

Stock mechs being free is both a red herring and a noob trap. Its cruel.

Stock mechs are absolutely awful. Removing them from the trial mechs was one of the best things PGI ever did for the NPE. They are so bad as to be effectively unusable. Saying they're free is pointless, because having them on your team is equivilant to having unrepaired and unarmed mechs on your team.


But, OK Sandpit, I'll play ball.

Let's forget about the new player experience. Let's assume players are exempt from R&R cost for 100 matches, and only after that time (a week for some, months for others) they start paying, and let's assume this doesn't piss them off and make them quit.

What R&R does is create a paradigm where the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. Less adept players take more damage and lose more often. They earn fewer chills, and have to pay more in R&R costs. Even if R&R was capped at 30% of earnings, you'd be cutting 30% off of already pathetically low earnings.

This lack of funding contributes to poor builds, or just mechs that don't get repaired at all. This happened in the old days, and was a serious problem
As a solo pug player, I just *loved* spawning in a match between two Centurions sporting a pair of Medium Lasers each and nothing else. In battered barely functional mechs.

Sure, in some ways that was cool. And while I always fought tooth and nail, I certainly felt in many matches that I would be better off just hiding and shutting down right at the start because we had no chance of victory whatsoever.

Fast forward to today? The general game populace is a lot more fickle. Punishing players for being bad doesn't make them get better, it makes them leave. Losing is bad enough.


Joseph Mallan: Yeah, I very clearly remember that, and miss much of it. I even fought viciously against R&R being removed at the time. But looking back, I honestly feel it wasn't just good for the game, it was necessary for the game to appeal to anyone outside us more devoted fans.

[Ivanzypher]

Whilst I can't see it effecting poptarting and whatnot, I would love to see the return of R&R. Although what I'd really love is for the game to be more of a battletech sim. I mean sure, I love having my garage of 40 fully custom mechs, but it's also completely ridiculous. Having a single mech, which you had to care for and maintain, and which had the chance to be destroyed would be awesome, and make the game less of a "World of Tanks but with Robots" thing.

[Zensei]

Why is it that you think you are an influence? That you can change the game to suit you? Move to Canada, put an application in, get that interview, displace the current developers, take command of PGI, then make your move on IGN, send them all packing. And then make the game your own.

You are a legend, somewhere out there you are, somewhere..............

Maybe in your own mind.

[MadcatX]

R&R (not counting the tech idea, interesting concept) without a larger picture simply becomes gain X C-Bills in salvage, lose X C-Bills in R&R and really hope that you end up coming out ahead.

From a game design and purely mechanical point of view, having to pay extra to use only a specific set of weapon systems but paying nothing for energy weapons makes absolutely no sense. From a b-tech immersion point of view, I can see where the idea comes from (single-player) but for actual MW:o gameplay as-is, it really never made sense even when it was implemented.

I find the idea of actually salvaging equipment awesome, but it's finding that equation of how much earned through salvage against how much lost to R&R, I won't say it's impossible but it is quite a daunting task.

As for a static end-game c-bill sink, or nearly end-game because that's generally where time sinks are located, hard to implement since we don't have an end-game exactly and since I'm not anywhere's near a point where I'm asking myself 'What to do with all these C-bills?'. Well, some games lets you use in-game currency to rent things (camo/color patterns for a week, XP bonus for X matches, vanity items, etc.).

You're right in that this game has no economy, and honestly at this stage nor should it. This game is comparable to a MOBA (LoL, etc) in that the content is in the units and the only reason for currency is to get other units, upgrades, etc. But then again, MOBA units are more or less balanced against each other and can be produced comparatively easily whereas we have entire weight classes of mechs that are under-played for various reasons.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Sandpit, on 26 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

So, in the course of another thread this idea was kicked around. I don't take full credit for it as many others have suggested similar over the years and I've just kind of combined them all and refined it a bit.

Let's start with R&R:

Put R&R fees back into the game. I know I know, but sand, we already don't earn much! Well I disagree with that but I understand some feel that way so, in order to counter that, you boost earnings slightly and reduce the R&R fees a bit.
You MUST R&R your mech. I've always thought it was a bit silly that you stomp around, fire of 5 tons of ammo, and don't have to reload that ammo or buy new ammo. Now, stock mechs in stock loadouts wouldn't have to pay for reloads and cadets wouldn't pay for reload and repair. That would prevent new players from getting "hurt" by something digging into their rewards so they can still have all their cash when they "graduate".
Stock mechs don't pay for R&R (if you want fluff for this then explain it as your faction absorbs the cost of that because it's a standard military issue unit, once you start customizing you're paying for it out of pocket, this also helps new players and players trying to save money for new mechs as well as helps justify seeing stock mechs on the field.) Now I realize at the higher Elo brackets that this becomes pretty much a non-factor because they've generally got a stockpile of cash and mechs anyhow, but those players aren't going to be playing against new(er) players still trying to build a hangar.

But why R&R?

Well I'm glad you asked. R&R is essential for adding in an economy that has both rewards and consequences. It has a far reaching implications across other aspects of the game as well. Want to run the LRM boat and spam missiles for 15 minutes burning through 10 tons of ammo? Go for it, but your'e going to have to pay for that ammo.
Want to run that poptart? Hey, that's great too! You're going to have to pay for all that ammo you're shooting downrange though. It doesn't limit what you can take but it does make you think before you just needlessly click that fire button every time you get a 2 second lock or a quick glimpse at a poptart target.
It also adds in something that's sorely needed here. An actual economy. Right now the only thing to spend cbills on are mechs and modules and skills. That means players who have a "set" mech and/or loadout they play almost exclusively, they are not actually spending those cbills which means they're stockpiling.
Now I understand that many are going to say "Stockpiling isn't bad" and I agree to an extent BUT this is where you run into long-term issues. Those players with stockpiles of tens and hundreds of millions of cbills have the ability already (before it's even implemented) to create major imbalances in the economy.

Techs:

Here's another cost associated with R&R as well as refitting a custom design. Techs would be two-fold. They create another sink but also provide bonuses to R&R and Salvage (which I'll cover here momentarily) bonuses after the initial investment is made. No players would be required to have techs but investing the cash up front for techs would pay out dividends in their bonuses.
Techs would be similar to modules. Except you don't "buy" them, you "hire" them for xx matches. Different levels of techs would offer different levels of bonuses.
Green = 10% bonus to salvage, -10% to R&R fees
Regular = 15% bonus
Advanced = 20% bonus
Elite = 25% bonus
Now all of these numbers are purely for example purposes and I'm sure would need to be adjusted. To further diversify have techs broke down into classes. A "light" tech would be able to keep your hangar running but you wouldn't get the R&R bonuses, although you would still get the salvage bonus.
The initial cost for techs would be cbills & xp although you can offer the option to buy them for MC as well (similar to the way arty and such have an MC version).


Salvage:
Here's where things really get interesting. Instead of the current salvage system we have, we need it to be shifted to an actual salvage system. Instead of receiving cbills for salvage, players have a % chance to actually salvage equipment. Component destruction = more chances to salvage and the techs also add a % to salvage as well. Players could then choose to keep the salvaged item or sell it back for the regular "used" item price.

Everyone would have a salvage chance but the techs, component destruction, and such would increase the chances of getting it.

These 3 things would add a lot of depth and immersion to the game and introduce the start of an actual economy for the game.

Honestly I always kind of thought this was how the progression should have worked.

Basically you start off a a few basic designs. Then as you battle, you begin to salvage equipment to include arms, legs, torsos, etc. Then you either keep the salvage or sell it. Sometimes you might get luck and even salvage an entire workable chassis but most often you would, over time assemble a chassis then for a modest fee, you have a tech assemble it.

Also in addition to selling to salvage brokers for rock bottom prices, you would have a player driven market. Not an auction house, but an actual market where players actually had to go hawk their wares and haggle prices. This area also acts as a lobby to discuss well virtually everything.

Then slowly, over time, you randomly gather different chassis that you slowly improve as you play the game. Eventually you would assemble an entire stable of mechs that you could buy, sell and trade with other players.

This would have been cool.

[MonkeyCheese]

Sandpit, on 26 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

So, in the course of another thread this idea was kicked around. I don't take full credit for it as many others have suggested similar over the years and I've just kind of combined them all and refined it a bit.

Let's start with R&R:

Put R&R fees back into the game. I know I know, but sand, we already don't earn much! Well I disagree with that but I understand some feel that way so, in order to counter that, you boost earnings slightly and reduce the R&R fees a bit.
You MUST R&R your mech. I've always thought it was a bit silly that you stomp around, fire of 5 tons of ammo, and don't have to reload that ammo or buy new ammo. Now, stock mechs in stock loadouts wouldn't have to pay for reloads and cadets wouldn't pay for reload and repair. That would prevent new players from getting "hurt" by something digging into their rewards so they can still have all their cash when they "graduate".
Stock mechs don't pay for R&R (if you want fluff for this then explain it as your faction absorbs the cost of that because it's a standard military issue unit, once you start customizing you're paying for it out of pocket, this also helps new players and players trying to save money for new mechs as well as helps justify seeing stock mechs on the field.) Now I realize at the higher Elo brackets that this becomes pretty much a non-factor because they've generally got a stockpile of cash and mechs anyhow, but those players aren't going to be playing against new(er) players still trying to build a hangar.

But why R&R?

Well I'm glad you asked. R&R is essential for adding in an economy that has both rewards and consequences. It has a far reaching implications across other aspects of the game as well. Want to run the LRM boat and spam missiles for 15 minutes burning through 10 tons of ammo? Go for it, but your'e going to have to pay for that ammo.
Want to run that poptart? Hey, that's great too! You're going to have to pay for all that ammo you're shooting downrange though. It doesn't limit what you can take but it does make you think before you just needlessly click that fire button every time you get a 2 second lock or a quick glimpse at a poptart target.
It also adds in something that's sorely needed here. An actual economy. Right now the only thing to spend cbills on are mechs and modules and skills. That means players who have a "set" mech and/or loadout they play almost exclusively, they are not actually spending those cbills which means they're stockpiling.
Now I understand that many are going to say "Stockpiling isn't bad" and I agree to an extent BUT this is where you run into long-term issues. Those players with stockpiles of tens and hundreds of millions of cbills have the ability already (before it's even implemented) to create major imbalances in the economy.

Techs:

Here's another cost associated with R&R as well as refitting a custom design. Techs would be two-fold. They create another sink but also provide bonuses to R&R and Salvage (which I'll cover here momentarily) bonuses after the initial investment is made. No players would be required to have techs but investing the cash up front for techs would pay out dividends in their bonuses.
Techs would be similar to modules. Except you don't "buy" them, you "hire" them for xx matches. Different levels of techs would offer different levels of bonuses.
Green = 10% bonus to salvage, -10% to R&R fees
Regular = 15% bonus
Advanced = 20% bonus
Elite = 25% bonus
Now all of these numbers are purely for example purposes and I'm sure would need to be adjusted. To further diversify have techs broke down into classes. A "light" tech would be able to keep your hangar running but you wouldn't get the R&R bonuses, although you would still get the salvage bonus.
The initial cost for techs would be cbills & xp although you can offer the option to buy them for MC as well (similar to the way arty and such have an MC version).


Salvage:
Here's where things really get interesting. Instead of the current salvage system we have, we need it to be shifted to an actual salvage system. Instead of receiving cbills for salvage, players have a % chance to actually salvage equipment. Component destruction = more chances to salvage and the techs also add a % to salvage as well. Players could then choose to keep the salvaged item or sell it back for the regular "used" item price.

Everyone would have a salvage chance but the techs, component destruction, and such would increase the chances of getting it.

These 3 things would add a lot of depth and immersion to the game and introduce the start of an actual economy for the game.

IF these things came back along with CW coming out sure, but beforehand nah.

[FupDup]

1. Buy any mech with MC (preferably a Champion Cicada).
2. Sell that mech for C-Bills.
3. ???
4. Infinite profit!

Edited by FupDup, 26 July 2014 - 04:36 PM.