30 replies to this topic

[Agent of Change]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 July 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

You forgot, "Tip your Waitress!"

also he forgot an actual solution to the issue at hand but who's counting.

[cSand]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 July 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

You forgot, "Tip your Waitress!"

yes just not with Canadian tire money

Agent of Change, on 28 July 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

also he forgot an actual solution to the issue at hand but who's counting.

Well I can tell you my real solution but you're not gonna like it

[n r g]

Koniving, on 28 July 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Pinpoint convergence is a problem.

It's been something that's very clear ever since the introduction of host state rewind, where 'Delayed Convergence' was ultimately removed and the "Pinpoint convergence" Elite Skill became a 3,000 XP "tax" with its yield removed.

Back in the day, if I were to shift aim from something 700 meters away to an Atlas 50 meters away, I would have to wait for my weapons to align. If I did not, my arm weapons would hit your arms and my torso weapons would hit your torsos.

If we did the same thing and you were in a Hunchback, my arm weapons would go completely around you and my torso weapons would probably do some glitched out criss-cross X.

What it did was teach a little bit of firing discipline and added an element into the game. It was removed for two reasons. One, it messed with HSR. Your convergence was always shifting. Two, it caused issues for players with high ping.

However PGI's solution of removing it whether temporary or permanent completely sucks.

All weapons converge to hit a specific point in the air, and the weapons appear to adjust course to hit even after being fired. For example if I aim at your arm from 900 meters with AC/2s and the wall beyond you is 1,200 meters, then you twist your arm out of the way in the nick of time... the shots are already fired but instead of the weapons converging where your arm was and then scattering out, they will hit as if they were always aimed at the 1,200 meter wall in a perfect pinpoint spot.

That means at some point when the intended point of convergence failed, the bullets ignored that point and continued on to converge in a pinpoint pile beyond it.

This isn't just pinpoint, it's physics defying pinpoint.

We need another solution.
Seriously a targeting computer shouldn't be giving enhanced range to lasers, should not be making bullets faster. Faster locks? Sure. But since when does a computer pack extra powder into rounds? When does a computer behave as a capacitor to give lasers extra burn?

Now a targeting computer giving faster convergence? Possibly. Giving more options to convergence levels? Definitely.

So what about manual convergence?

Spoiler

Button options to manually establish where we want our convergence. No ping reliance. No HSR issues (as they can detect where we establish it), and we can use intervals of 100 or 200 meters. Tighter intervals for targeting computers and command consoles.

The only pain is manually setting these and knowing to set them. We'd want a simple system like the mouse wheel where we can quickly scroll to the desired range and then start firing. Obviously weapons such as LRMs and streaks when locked would ignore this convergence.

This would actually open us up to more skill based tricks, such as "criss-cross trickshots" where we fire to converge prematurely and the shots just X through to hit two separate targets, and SRM scattering tricks. It'd be neat to say the least.

Or what about the third person targeting reticule?

Spoiler

It's drawn (unlike the first person one) directly to the cockpit of the third person battlemech model which bobs, bounces, side-leans, etc, as the mech moves.

The first person camera? Pfft. No matter what happens, the reticule is straight. It doesn't bounce, it doesn't weave, it just glides on a magical monorail.

Here's some of the B.S. we can get out of it... and a comparison of the third person camera.
The question is... can we get that in first person? Can the first person model have the exact animations of the third person model, with the reticules in first person drawn from either the pilot's head or the cockpit itself.

This would create a reticule that moves with the mech, simulating the accuracy penalties of Battletech for movement. It would give character to different mechs. It would allow mechs to survive longer. It would make mediums and lights more viable, as their smaller frames would be more difficult to hit as crosshairs bob and weave.

Interestingly enough, aiming would still be 100% pinpoint, leaving a 100% skill based aiming system instead of a cone of fire.

If we combine it with a "not-100%-locked" armlock, then the arms would have only a tiny bit of free movement which would in turn scatter shots a bit more. Sometimes this won't matter, but sometimes this is the difference between life and death.

But more so, a targeting computer and Command Console could reduce the range of that 'bob' by different levels of strengths [very, very small values; but these values would be enough to mean something in the long run].

This would also significantly increase the value of a Gyro Stablizer module, because an AC/20 will cause an Atlas's third person model to jerk an entire 82 degrees to the left or right when hit in the shoulder. This in turn would under normal circumstances also jerk the pilot's twist that way... and so a gyro stablizer would reduce that.

We need something. If weapons fired twice in 10 seconds to our double armor it wouldn't matter. But we fire 3 to more than 14 times in 10 seconds.

We also need a continuation of the hitbox overhaul. Jenners are still walking center torsos. I was LRM'ing a Jenner and he just got obliterated CT with no damage to anything but one side torso, moving at 150+ kph. Why are its side torsos as skinny as its arms? Why not do a logical design like run the side torsos up the sides of the torso? Or a Raven-esque hitbox design?

Just some thoughts I've had.

huh? with arm lock off , the torso crosshair lags behind the arm crosshair and there is convergence issues if you do not wait....

...or are you complaining strictly about players who use arm lock OFF?

[Agent of Change]

cSand, on 28 July 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Well I can tell you my real solution but you're not gonna like it

I'm actually curious now. But to the original question, objectively universal instant PPFLD has an adverse effect on TTK, pushes the meta into a very limited range of "effective builds" and as a result stifles generally creativity and lends a chilling effect for the rank and file pilots. The trends into cookie cutter builds, universal prevalence of a handful of mechs and reduces both the amount of playstyles but also the variety of equipment (mechs and weapons) that tend to be fielded on the main.

The issue isn't with FLD on its own, nor with pin point convergence on it's own. Together combined with a system that automatically and instantly compensates for every shot with out player input or thought they become an issue that by simply existing degrades the preference for , ability, and effectiveness of DOT and non-PPFLD. Further more removing the Instant universal PP from the equation you can keep all the existing weapons as they are, functionally increase the skill threshold of the current "meta" and increase general TTK. I can't see the down side so long as you just ignore the whining of people who were only interested in COD style one shot FLD style play, but for those folks i say ****'em.

Edited by Agent of Change, 28 July 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[kapusta11]

Convergence is a fancy word, in practice you rolled a dice to determine which location you've hit for EACH weapon. In MWO you roll 1 dice for ALL weapons. To simulate this you can add 0.5 second accuracy penalty (spread) when firing a weapon, firing more than 1 weapon at a time will result in both(or more) shots to be inaccurate from the start. Targeting computer could allow you to fire several weapons simultaneously as long as you invest enough tonnage, it could share case mechanic, for example 1 ML require 0.5 ton of targeting computer equipment in order to remove penalty, heavy weapons like AC20, Gauss and PPCs - 3 tons etc.

Edited by kapusta11, 28 July 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Sybreed]

1. Use a client authoritative system
2. Create a hacking detecting tool to deter potential hackers
3. Remove convergence
4. ???
5. Profit!

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I don't really think PP FLD dmg is really the problem, or convergence. I think it's the recycle time on the weapons. Make harder hitting weapons recycle time longer. Heck, make all weapons have a longer recycle time...

I would basically say, go by Solaris rule set for weapon fire times... (And I'm still confused why MGs don't do 2 dmg per shot, they should shoot bullets similar to ac2s and at a short range, not this constant dakkadakka that auto hit the crosshairs).

Anyway, you want to increase TTK, then just increase recycle times. Don't punish players with good aim, because you indirectly push away new players faster. New players will adapt a lot slower to complex game mechanics, and will probably quit before they get used to the game. Our community is already small as it is. Torso twisting is already complicated enough for new players. They have a hard enough time navigating in reverse let along firing all crazy like with all this wierd convergence stuff. Veterane Light mechs would decimate new players because they will move faster then the mechs convergence system.

[Lightfoot]

None of my weapons have pin-point convergence, except the lasers, but they are DoT. All the MWO weapons have different travel times so once you start moving laterally to your attacker you should spread that damage out no problem.

However, most new players in MWO have not learned to do this. So many come straight at you, firing away with higher accuracy, but taking everything fired at them in the Center Torso and they are easy shots to a skilled pilot.

That's a skill feature of MechWarrior, not a flaw.

What you are asking for would probably require players to lock their targets because otherwise the game would not know what you were aiming at. What I remember in Beta was some lasers crossing in an X occasionally, but mostly the weapons worked normally or as they do now.

Edited by Lightfoot, 28 July 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[1453 R]

Manual convergence sounds attractive to heavy sim-jockeys and people who make ‘Mechpits (who are awesome people by the way, no sass intended), but it’s the sort of solution that becomes an aggravating, mood-killing hassle for ninety percent of the playerbase.

Even assuming you get to do the scrollwheel thing instead of just saying “My convergence point is 300m; any shot I take anywhere outside of 295-305 meters is going to be wildly inaccurate, but that’s okay because balance!”, it means that a majority of players are basically never going to get off accurate shots again outside of guided missiles. Nobody except the game’s upper-echelon players is going to be able to determine the range they need to converge at, manually set the thing mid-battle, and then get off an accurate shot in anything much less than three seconds, and if you can’t fire an accurate shot in much less than three seconds – not to mention only one such shot in those three seconds, since two or three steps by either ‘Mech is going to change the range to target enough to get back into Wildly Inaccurate – a lot of players are going to end up default to guided missiles because it’s the only thing that still works.

Yes yes yes, I KNOW – “Git Gud, Son.” Some people would have no trouble whatsoever manually resetting their convergence with the same instinctive speed and certain they already aim with and would suffer no penalty whatsoever to their fighting with a manual convergence system. Some people can also build a model airplane kit while playing chess balancing on a see-saw during the middle of a driving thunderstorm. It’s already hard enough for many players simply to keep track of the game’s dual-reticle system as it is – do we really want to add the idea of forcing players to keep track of not only both reticles and their ‘Mech’s own movement, but a dynamic range adjustor they have to get exactly right or miss every shot they fire?

I’m much in favor of a simpler system like Koniving’s 1^st-person reticle bob. It’s simple, intuitive, and unlike the dynamic manual convergence nonsense with the scrollwheel, a new player looking at what their reticle’s doing will immediately understand it – the reticle’s following the ‘Mech’s own movements. Learning to compensate for it becomes a way of actually mastering the particular ‘Mech in question – maybe you’re a really slick shot in that Dragon, and can compensate for its particular reticle sway like a champ, eh?

Simple, intuitive, and easy to understand. We have enough barriers in the way of new blood in this game as it is.

Edited by 1453 R, 28 July 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[cSand]

^^This^^

[Agent of Change]

or of course the ever popular "cone of fire" for all weapons fired at once. but you see the problem is not where the reticle is but that all weapons go to that single point. Reticle wobble won't solve the issue unless it desyncs the weapons from the reticle.

manually and pre-set convergence has some issues but it is technically simple to implement, (no HSR issues because there are no calculations as you set once prior to the game. It maintains skill as your rounds may not always hit the middle of your reticle but they will always fire consistently towards your convergence point, vs. CoF which is random. And it's easy enough to understand, I mean Warthunder players manage it.

I;m not talking about active convergence I'm talking about setting your convergence distance prior to the match based on your personal strategy for your build. wanna be a long range sniper set convergence out at 700+ meters but don;t expect to bring that ppfld on one spot when some one hugs you. wanna build a brawlers set closer. I think arms and torso could be set differently.

As to people relying on missles? Well they do that now because it's basically the only other thing out their thats not either clan-tech of meta.

Edited by Agent of Change, 29 July 2014 - 05:38 AM.