126 replies to this topic

[JigglyMoobs]

http://mwomercs.com/...odern-strategy/

I'd also recommend becoming familiar with the concept of the ooda loop. It won't immediately help you kill that direwolf around the corner, but ovr time it will help you evaluate your development as a mech pilot and improve.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 04 August 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[Sug]

JigglyMoobs, on 01 August 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

So, if you are in good teams, your life has gotten better. If you are playing by yourself and you want to win, your life has generally gotten harder.

Been the same for me. 50/50 win/loss. Fewer stomps though. Games are generally better for me. Many more close, good games since they game solo puggers their own queue.

[IraqiWalker]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 04 August 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Honestly, if your going to solo-que... The most important thing to remember, is that the other 11 people on YOUR team are A.I. Bots trying their best to ruin your day. The 2nd most important thing to remember, is the other team has 12 PRO players, and they also are trying their hardest to ruin your day!

Anyway, the bots on your team might be chatting to you, but it's all pre-programmed chat messages made to look like someone is talking to you... They will not carry you, you must carry them to victory! Like others have said, IS mechs should focus on High FLD PP and fast moving engines. Do not stare directly into the eyes of the great direwolf for too long, torso twist frequently and dodge behind cover. Try not to stop moving, and try to move at top speed when ever possible.

If all these things don't help, then it's time to stop playing with bots and find some real people. Jump on team speak and join a team.

Ouch, that's a bit harsh. While true in some occasions, I've had some good PuG games. The solo queue is also improving a lot now that everyone is a solo player. The problem is that not many people take charge and lead.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

DavidHurricane, on 04 August 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

How to combat Clan Mechs:

3. Don't put yourself in a situation where you'll turn a corner and meet the barrel of a UAC/20.

HAHAHA I have a Clan machine with Twin AC20s and Twin AC5s. Its been so much fun when someone walks round a corner on HPG and gets a face full

Edited by Keira_NZ, 04 August 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Keira_NZ, on 04 August 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

HAHAHA I have a Clan machine with Twin AC20s and Twin AC5s. Its been so much fun when someone walks round a corner on HPG and gets a face full

The ghost heat from that is probably astronomical.

[InspectorG]

Lily from animove, on 04 August 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

blood bowl comes with a quite decent manual, which just explains every mechanic and stuff. Its basically the whole TT rulebook. you should read this it explains evertyhing exceptional good. At leats if that is still the same as in the first Bloodbowl game. also, BB 2 confirmed, F*ck Yeah.
but playing it only is impossible, because people there are whiny like hell and want to play Cuddlebowl and not BLOODbowl.

but here, in this game, we would have nothing, without the wiki or smurfs mechlab, this would be a pain to analyse anything, you would not even be able to read the ranges of weapons, since the graphical diagram shows just some points of ranges and the graph ends X pixel next to a range marker, making it a a "guess the range" grapgh. This is like giving a jet pilot some vague informations about his jet. Like try landing between Speed X and X+10 while you tell him X is somewhere above 200km/h

You play Blood Bowl?
I play on occasion at fumbbl.com. I could not get into the console version. Pretty, but slow.
Fummbl is just 16bit pixels and DEATH!!!! The players dont seem too complainy. Most were pretty secure in the knowledge that their pixels were meant to die. I accepted that natural law when i ran pro elves.

If you are ever down for a match, you can beat on my elves! If you can catch them(shouldnt be hard )

[990Dreams]

Keira_NZ, on 04 August 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

HAHAHA I have a Clan machine with Twin AC20s and Twin AC5s. Its been so much fun when someone walks round a corner on HPG and gets a face full

Unless you're the one walking 'round the corner .

Edited by DavidHurricane, 04 August 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

Zoddom, on 28 July 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

I have to get some things off my chest.

I play MWO for 1 year now, but only veeeerrry rarely, so I consider myself a noob.

I only play the Jenner 7D and the Catapult K2.
I play in the EU and the high ping was always a bit of a problem, but never really bothered me.
I always did between 200 and 400 damage per round, and lasted agood while.

now, recently I started playing again, and now its my first days since the clan invasion.

now, my games look like this:
I come around a corner, OP clan mech to my face, melts me in 2 seconds, I do 30 damage and Im dead.

every single game.

What the **** is wrong? This game is now entirely pay2win and the fun factor is 0 for me.

For me, right now its either remove those OP pay2win mechs, or I quit this game forever.

if you see a clan laser mech do whatever you can to kill it; like it's the plague, their lasers are far superior to the inner sphere lasers, esp. on the stormcrow and nova.

also, if you see a direwolf even in the radar, steer clear, some of them have 7 large lasers which outrange the inner sphere ER laser :S which is indeed bullcrap!!!

but their other weaps are not as strong as their lasers, i wish you luck! if not get an ecm cicada it might at least deter their streaks which are more powerful for clans who shoot em in sixes

[SVK Puskin]

Koniving, on 28 July 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

The typical Clan UAC/20 shot is 4 damage. (Fires 5).
The Inner Sphere AC/20 shot is 20 damage.
Clan UAC/10 shot is 2 damage. (Fires 5)
IS AC/10 is 10 damage.
Clan UAC/5 is 1.67. (Fires 3).
IS UAC/5 and AC/5 is 5 damage.
Clan UAC/2 is 1 damage.
IS AC/2 is 2 damage.

(IS mechs are simply more dangerous at any one instant with their weapons when it comes to ballistics).

Now on to energy weapons...

Clan ER Large Lasers are 0.25 more damage than they should be (tabletop is simply 2 damage above IS, MWO it's 2.25 more than IS) but the beam time is 50% longer.

Otherwise, Clan weapons are at canonical values (except the ER Smalls and Pulses. I won't get into Pulses.) Both at heat and damage. (Clan ER Medium is 7 damage, 5 heat as it should be. Clan ER Small 5 damage, 2 heat. It's 4 damage, 2 heat.)

Meanwhile the IS medium and small lasers are at canonical damage values but extremely high heat. (4 instead of 3 for ML. 2 instead of 1 for SL.) Fixing that would give the IS mechs a better chance up close as all standard IS brawling lasers (270 and lower range; doesn't include pulse lasers) are by lore much, much colder than Clan ER laser weapons.

PGI should fix that discrepancy. Especially since the ER Larges, Larges, and Large Pulse Lasers are all so cold despite having longer than canonical ranges. (ER Large is 8.5 heat in MWO, but 12 in tabletop. Large Pulse is 8 heat, but in tabletop it's 10 heat. Regular Large Laser is 9 heat in tabletop, but 7 heat in MWO. The tradeoff for range and firepower was heat and weight. In MWO it's just weight with less heat).

And what about double heatsinks? I think MWO has less effective double heatsinks, right? Yeah i agree with you about ballistic weapons but overall Clan weapons are better, they have longer range, less weight, less slots but more heat.

[Koniving]

ENS Puskin, on 04 August 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

And what about double heatsinks? I think MWO has less effective double heatsinks, right? Yeah i agree with you about ballistic weapons but overall Clan weapons are better, they have longer range, less weight, less slots but more heat.

Tabletop for 10 DHS.
30 threshold, 20 cooling in 10 seconds which is 2/sec cooling.

Spoiler

MWO for 10 DHS for a 150 engine.
Cooling Rate : 1.76 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 47.6

MWO for 10 DHS for a 150 engine with elite skills.
Cooling Rate : 2.02 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 57.12

MWO for 10 DHS for a 200 engine.
Cooling Rate : 1.88 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 48.8

MWO for 10 DHS for a 200 engine and elite.
Cooling Rate : 2.16 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 58.55999999999999

MWO for 10 DHS for a 250 engine.
Cooling Rate : 2.00 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 50

MWO for 10 DHS for a 250 engine and elite.
Cooling Rate : 2.30 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 60

TT for 15 DHS.
30 threshold, 30 cooling for 10 seconds, 3/sec cooling.

Spoiler

MWO for 15 DHS for 200 engine.
Cooling Rate : 2.58 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 55.8

MWO for 15 DHS for 200 engine and elites.
Cooling Rate : 2.97 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 66.96

MWO for 15 DHS for 250 engine.
Cooling Rate : 2.70 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 57

MWO for 15 DHS for 250 engine and elites.
Cooling Rate : 3.10 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 68.39999999999999

You were saying something about less effective DHS?

As you can see they start less effective, and are if you have a lower than 250 engine. They are, to some extent, lower for the 5 after the initial 10 in the 250 engine, but even that balances out with elites. It's not until you reach 17 DHS that you actually fail to break even in comparison to tabletop DHS, and even then your threshold is so through-the-roof that you can alpha 3 times more than tabletop can.

For the 250 engine + elites

Spoiler

MWO for 10 DHS for a 250 engine and elite.
Cooling Rate : 2.30 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 60

Compare to TT 10 DHS:
Cooling rate of 2/sec
threshold of 30.

The MWO mech can alpha twice as much as well as fire much more often.

Convert MWO 250 engine with 10 DHS into TT:
23/turn with 60 threshold OR more literal to conversion within TT rules: 5.3/sec cooling and 30 threshold.

http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/ All using forest colony.

Edited by Koniving, 04 August 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[SVK Puskin]

Koniving, on 04 August 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

You were saying something about less effective DHS?

No man i was asking you.

[Koniving]

ENS Puskin, on 04 August 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

No man i was asking you.

Ah. Welp, answer given in the spoilers. Before elites and for a lower-than-250-engine (sorry lights and mediums, you're alienated), DHS is quite a bit less powerful.

250 or elites pretty much evens it out; put the two together and it's basically an unstoppable killing machine so long as you don't bother with more than 16 DHS. After that it isn't 'as valuable' anymore.

But yeah, Clan mechs that require more (Warhawk which has them mandatory) are hurt more than not. The Nova and up are actually in great shape, but once you hit Timber Wolf they start losing quality, and beyond that it's down hill.

[SVK Puskin]

Koniving, on 04 August 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Ah. Welp, answer given in the spoilers. Before elites and for a lower-than-250-engine (sorry lights and mediums, you're alienated), DHS is quite a bit less powerful.

250 or elites pretty much evens it out; put the two together and it's basically an unstoppable killing machine so long as you don't bother with more than 16 DHS. After that it isn't 'as valuable' anymore.

But yeah, Clan mechs that require more (Warhawk which has them mandatory) are hurt more than not. The Nova and up are actually in great shape, but once you hit Timber Wolf they start losing quality, and beyond that it's down hill.

Well according this we still have arm race so maybe we can expect more weapon tunning in the future but i think that devs are not following tabletop game rules, right?

[IraqiWalker]

ENS Puskin, on 04 August 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

And what about double heatsinks? I think MWO has less effective double heatsinks, right? Yeah i agree with you about ballistic weapons but overall Clan weapons are better, they have longer range, less weight, less slots but more heat.

For "overall" to be correct that means clans have to have better energy, ballistic, and missile weapons. To be honest, the statement has falsehoods in it.

For example, clan LRMs are by far the worst weapon in the game, that isn't a flamer being used at 100 meters. Clan SSRMs
have crazy cycle times, and they deal less damage per missile than IS SSRMs. Same thing with regular SRMs. They weigh a bit less, but deal less damage, while generating the same heat.

IS missiles are pretty much better in terms of damage, and cycle times, also, to be fully considered one should take into account that IS mechs can use proper torso twisting, while clan mechs have a harder time with that, and as such in a brawl (where SRMs will come into play) IS short range weapons become more effective. This is all before factoring in the heat build up from energy weapons that will overwhelm clan mechs rather quickly.

Energy weapons is where the clan mechs have an advantage. Damage over Time is what they excel at, and energy weapon are the perfect manifestation of that philosophy, if you try and stare them down, they will melt you at 800 meters. However, the draw back is in the cycle times, burn times and higher heat.

As such, if you are trying to kill a clan mech, get close, force them to use those high heat weapons to shut down. Keep torso twisting and you will survive while they kill themselves.

Clan ballistics are by and large all inferior to IS ballistics, except for the Gauss (I personally would rather it has either a longer charge up time, shorter charge retention time, or both)

So aside from energy weapons, the other weapons are between equal, and inferior. Leading to a mostly balanced existence.

The mistake many people make when discussing balance (and I'm not saying you're making it), is that they confuse balance with operating in a similar way. Balance means that each weapon has it's own edge and niche, and there's a valid reason for why both are viable weapons, and can be chosen.

(For example, if IS ML was brought back to it's original TT heat levels, I would love to slap plenty of those on my clan mechs, they are colder, and I generally engage enemies at around 300 meters anyways, so I want cooler running weapons.)

Clan pulse lasers are ... I'm not comfortable with the latest tweak to them, they were supposed to be comparable, if not weaker in many regards to their clan normal counterparts.

Mazzyplz, on 04 August 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

if you see a clan laser mech do whatever you can to kill it; like it's the plague, their lasers are far superior to the inner sphere lasers, esp. on the stormcrow and nova.

also, if you see a direwolf even in the radar, steer clear, some of them have 7 large lasers which outrange the inner sphere ER laser :S which is indeed bullcrap!!!

but their other weaps are not as strong as their lasers, i wish you luck! if not get an ecm cicada it might at least deter their streaks which are more powerful for clans who shoot em in sixes

The clan ERLL is supposed to outrange the IS ERLL. In fact, every single clan ER weapon should outrange it's IS counterpart.

As for clan streaks, they suffer from long cycle times, and actually deal less damage per missile than IS streaks. Yes, 2 SSRM4s is a lot of missiles to be hit by. Except for the fact that my COMD-2D with 3xSSRM2s will most likely out DPS that build (6 missiles vs. 8, and the 6 are more likely to win) {I'll actually test this and bring back the numbers.)

What you want to do, is use terrain for cover, get close, and hit and fade. Smack those test tube babies when they least expect it, and then disappear. Spin around, and smack them from another area. Or get close, fast, and brawl, bring them into melee range, where they will spread their damage a lot, and are more likely to miss, get them to over heat, and keep smacking their CTs.

ENS Puskin, on 04 August 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Well according this we still have arm race so maybe we can expect more weapon tunning in the future but i think that devs are not following tabletop game rules, right?

There are a few IS weapons that should have been here by now. I hope we get them soon.

Also, yes, the devs did stray from TT in certain regards.

[Koniving]

ENS Puskin, on 04 August 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Well according this we still have arm race so maybe we can expect more weapon tunning in the future but i think that devs are not following tabletop game rules, right?

Definitely not following those rules. Sometimes that's for the better (burst fire ACs for example is more lore-rooted, but in tabletop it's 'simplified' as TT is complicated enough without a comprehensive 500+ page book that covers weapon variants for all 44 unique, 63 total standard Inner Sphere medium lasers, 18+ Inner Sphere Gauss Rifles, 15+ Inner Sphere AC/20s, etc.), sometimes that's for the worse (ECM).

[SVK Puskin]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

For "overall" to be correct that means clans have to have better energy, ballistic, and missile weapons. To be honest, the statement has falsehoods in it.

For example, clan LRMs are by far the worst weapon in the game, that isn't a flamer being used at 100 meters. Clan SSRMs
have crazy cycle times, and they deal less damage per missile than IS SSRMs. Same thing with regular SRMs. They weigh a bit less, but deal less damage, while generating the same heat.

IS missiles are pretty much better in terms of damage, and cycle times, also, to be fully considered one should take into account that IS mechs can use proper torso twisting, while clan mechs have a harder time with that, and as such in a brawl (where SRMs will come into play) IS short range weapons become more effective. This is all before factoring in the heat build up from energy weapons that will overwhelm clan mechs rather quickly.

Energy weapons is where the clan mechs have an advantage. Damage over Time is what they excel at, and energy weapon are the perfect manifestation of that philosophy, if you try and stare them down, they will melt you at 800 meters. However, the draw back is in the cycle times, burn times and higher heat.

As such, if you are trying to kill a clan mech, get close, force them to use those high heat weapons to shut down. Keep torso twisting and you will survive while they kill themselves.

Clan ballistics are by and large all inferior to IS ballistics, except for the Gauss (I personally would rather it has either a longer charge up time, shorter charge retention time, or both)

So aside from energy weapons, the other weapons are between equal, and inferior. Leading to a mostly balanced existence.

The mistake many people make when discussing balance (and I'm not saying you're making it), is that they confuse balance with operating in a similar way. Balance means that each weapon has it's own edge and niche, and there's a valid reason for why both are viable weapons, and can be chosen.

(For example, if IS ML was brought back to it's original TT heat levels, I would love to slap plenty of those on my clan mechs, they are colder, and I generally engage enemies at around 300 meters anyways, so I want cooler running weapons.)

Clan pulse lasers are ... I'm not comfortable with the latest tweak to them, they were supposed to be comparable, if not weaker in many regards to their clan normal counterparts.



The clan ERLL is supposed to outrange the IS ERLL. In fact, every single clan ER weapon should outrange it's IS counterpart.

As for clan streaks, they suffer from long cycle times, and actually deal less damage per missile than IS streaks. Yes, 2 SSRM4s is a lot of missiles to be hit by. Except for the fact that my COMD-2D with 3xSSRM2s will most likely out DPS that build (6 missiles vs. 8, and the 6 are more likely to win) {I'll actually test this and bring back the numbers.)

What you want to do, is use terrain for cover, get close, and hit and fade. Smack those test tube babies when they least expect it, and then disappear. Spin around, and smack them from another area. Or get close, fast, and brawl, bring them into melee range, where they will spread their damage a lot, and are more likely to miss, get them to over heat, and keep smacking their CTs.


There are a few IS weapons that should have been here by now. I hope we get them soon.

Also, yes, the devs did stray from TT in certain regards.

Ok to be honest my knowledge about clan weapons in MWO is not high but you can agree with me that clan weapons are better in terms of range, weight and slots, maybe there are some exceptions. Yeah i would like see some new IS weapons too and also Mechs.

Edited by ENS Puskin, 04 August 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[SVK Puskin]

Koniving, on 04 August 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Definitely not following those rules. Sometimes that's for the better (burst fire ACs for example is more lore-rooted, but in tabletop it's 'simplified' as TT is complicated enough without a comprehensive 500+ page book that covers weapon variants for all 44 unique, 63 total standard Inner Sphere medium lasers, 18+ Inner Sphere Gauss Rifles, 15+ Inner Sphere AC/20s, etc.), sometimes that's for the worse (ECM).

Ah yeah it is good that they are not following complicated things which you mentioned. We use to say: Simplicity is beauty, power and efficiency.

[SVK Puskin]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

...get them to over heat, and keep smacking their CTs.

But if your target overheat and shutdown you lose lock and you are not able to shoot with streaks. I do not know how it works in this situation with tag laser or narc. Do you?

[IraqiWalker]

ENS Puskin, on 04 August 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

Ok to be honest my knowledge about clan weapons in MWO is not high but you can agree with me that clan weapons are better in terms of range, weight and slots, maybe there are some exceptions. Yeah i would like see some new IS weapons too and also Mechs.

I can agree with that, but that is only one side of the coin. The other side is they are worse at heat, cycle times, burn times, and lack PP FLD, except for two weapons (Gauss and ERPPC, those are the only PP FLD weapons the clans have. LBXs are not PP.). The weapons are also hindered by the quirky mechs they are put into, as problems with lack of slots, and inflexible hard-wired internals.

Yes, they have advantages, but they also have drawbacks that even them out (to some extent, we did mention some tweaks need to be made. Nothing drastic though).

Also, if I am not mistaken, we should be getting 1 or 2 new IS mechs very soon.

ENS Puskin, on 04 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

But if your target overheat and shutdown you lose lock and you are not able to shoot with streaks. I do not know how it works in this situation with tag laser or narc. Do you?

BAP detects powered down mechs within 120Meters. You should have BAP anyways if using streaks.

[SVK Puskin]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I can agree with that, but that is only one side of the coin. The other side is they are worse at heat, cycle times, burn times, and lack PP FLD, except for two weapons (Gauss and ERPPC, those are the only PP FLD weapons the clans have. LBXs are not PP.). The weapons are also hindered by the quirky mechs they are put into, as problems with lack of slots, and inflexible hard-wired internals.

Yes, they have advantages, but they also have drawbacks that even them out (to some extent, we did mention some tweaks need to be made. Nothing drastic though).

Also, if I am not mistaken, we should be getting 1 or 2 new IS mechs very soon.


BAP detects powered down mechs within 120Meters. You should have BAP anyways if using streaks.

Yeah agree they also have some handicaps. I would like to see a Devastator or Annihilator in game as a counterpart for a Direwolf. Ah yeah i forgot BAP, thanks for the reminder.