41 replies to this topic

[Maggiman]

When Windows 8 was released, there was no one that said that a full start menu would be in it. This is indeed a feature that was decided on later (after heavy criticism).
Features that are promised to be in the product must be in it or the product is incomplete, features that are decided later on however dont count into that. Otherwise you would be right.
Think Warcraft 2. When you bought it back then, you baught what you got. Sometime later an expansion hit, but you weren't teased with that content even though your money was used to develop that content.(In fact at the release of wc2 you probably didn't even know about an expansion).
What counts as content and what as expansion? Everything that is sold as a feature of the game. It is really that simple for me. If cw is a feature of the game, its incomplete until then.
If someone down the road the mauler *may* become available, it is not an advertised feature of the game. So it is complete without it.

Edited by Maggiman, 29 July 2014 - 02:15 PM.

[CompproB237]

Rogue Jedi, on 29 July 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Based on that definition Windows 8 is still in alpha. (Microsoft have stated future updates will add new content, including a full start menu and making the Shut down option relatively easy to find) Windows 7 and Vista are still in beta (still receiving bug fixes and security updates), the most recent complete version of Windows is the 12+year old XP, which recently stopped receiving updates

equally according to that definition any program which releases updates or DLC is still in Alpha.

those definitions are outdated, and have been since the first expansion pack or software update was released

You're over-generalizing the terms and definitions applied. This reminds me of the "Is Star Citizen a Pre-Alpha or Alpha?" thread. A lot of people using the terms didn't quite understand how they apply to the software release life cycle.

Windows 8 - Feature Complete based on the original design plan and is considered in the General Availability stage. The additional functionality mentioned is considered Interim Releases.
Windows 7 - General Availability stage and has Interim Releases for security patches and bug fixes.
MWO - Although it is missing major features from the original final design plan, it could be considered in the Perpetual Beta stage. That is, if you assume Community Warfare was removed from the original design plan.
SC - As stated is in Alpha. It is missing major features and is very prone to crashes and/or data loss.

[Heffay]

CompproB237, on 29 July 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

SC - As stated is in Alpha. It is missing major features and is very prone to crashes and/or data loss.

Does that mean SC will be in Alpha until they've finished with all the stretch goals? Because it can't leave Alpha until all the announced content is complete for testing in Beta, right?

Can't wait for 2022! The Year of $tar $itizen!

[Vanguard319]

THE ERASER, on 29 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

I Like your Math there compare a 40 - 60 people company to a 250 - 350 company..... and yeah I bet with you that you won't get SC on the shelf before beginning of 2016....

IDK, from what I've seen of Arena Commander, it's more polished than MWO is currently, and bear in mind, the excuse that it's still in alpha is legitimate, unlike MWO. Plus, PGI has shown a nasty tendency to break things even more with their "fixes". (they literally seem to have no plan as far as what they want this game to be.) If CIG keeps going at the pace they've set for themselves, and make no slipups, I think they have a very good chance of releasing SC out when they say they will, with most everything they have promised.

[Heffay]

Vanguard319, on 29 July 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

IDK, from what I've seen of Arena Commander, it's more polished than MWO is currently,

They delayed the release of Arena Commander by *6 months* to add "polish". And it still has a very long way to go.

Edited by Heffay, 29 July 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[CompproB237]

Heffay, on 29 July 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Does that mean SC will be in Alpha until they've finished with all the stretch goals? Because it can't leave Alpha until all the announced content is complete for testing in Beta, right?

Initial Proposal:

Star Citizen Kickstarter said:

Real quick, Star Citizen is:

• A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
  
• Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
  
• Persistent Universe (hosted by US)
  
• Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU)
  
• No Subscriptions
  
• No Pay to Win

Stretch goals: Interim Releases or possibly as part of Perpetual Beta

Therefore, once the Initial Proposal features are in the game then you will have it leaving Alpha.

The decision to delay the release of Arena Commander for 'Polish' was because of the bad effect an extremely buggy/crashing/unplayable game might have on early reviews. I'm not defending Star Citizen in that the initial Arena Commander release was

Quote

Spot on perfect.

But it was at least a playable Alpha.



Careful Heff, your Choice-Supportive Bias is showing.

Edited by CompproB237, 29 July 2014 - 04:13 PM.

[Maggiman]

You can have defined goals(features) and milestones (alpha beta or whatever) to see where software really stands or you can believe whatever the marketing guy in charge of the community (And if you are unlucky, the project itself) feeds you.
All that perpetual beta and never be finished bullshit is a safety net to have an excuse when something goes wrong!


I rather have someone stating that an announced feature just isn't doable (for the team/time being) and has to be removed from the feature list, than having this hillbilly attitude modern development seems to take, where you get a list with all somewhat possible features and *maybe* some of it gets actually developed.

[CompproB237]

Maggiman, on 29 July 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

You can have defined goals(features) and milestones (alpha beta or whatever) to see where software really stands or you can believe whatever the marketing guy in charge of the community (And if you are unlucky, the project itself) feeds you.
All that perpetual beta and never be finished bullshit is a safety net to have an excuse when something goes wrong!


I rather have someone stating that an announced feature just isn't doable (for the team/time being) and has to be removed from the feature list, than having this hillbilly attitude modern development seems to take, where you get a list with all somewhat possible features and *maybe* some of it gets actually developed.

I would prefer that myself. In the case of Star Citizen I would prefer they state that a feature they initially intended to be put into the game isn't feasible. So far most of the features the Stretch Goals have outlined seemed reasonable. They've also been fairly straight-forward with conveying issues they're having to the community.

[Maggiman]

Truth to be told (Sry if i am too of topic ) i hold out on SC untill more of it is developed. What interests me the most is the rich universe, which is also a really vague term that could mean a lot of things and i dont want to hype anything up (Which is unfair towards any developer anyway). They way it looks though, i am onboard when the time comes =)

[Heffay]

CompproB237, on 29 July 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

Therefore, once the Initial Proposal features are in the game then you will have it leaving Alpha.

The decision to delay the release of Arena Commander for 'Polish' was because of the bad effect an extremely buggy/crashing/unplayable game might have on early reviews. I'm not defending Star Citizen in that the initial Arena Commander release wasBut it was at least a playable Alpha.

Careful Heff, your Choice-Supportive Bias is showing.

I didn't realize I made a "choice" between the games. I'm a big supporter (financially and faith) of both games. Heck, I'm an MVP poster on the Star Citizen forums for my contributions to the game, which I'm *sure* you've done something similar...

What I'm not is deluded enough to think that Arena Commander is in any way even remotely as polished as MWO is. It should get there eventually, but the gameplay is limited to two game modes in which the best way to play is to sit and be a turret, die 10 seconds later, respawn, and repeat. MWO's gameplay is spot on perfect, orders of magnitude less buggy, and damn fun.

I think confirmation bias may be a problem in this thread, but it's definitely not *my* problem. That is pretty much reserved for people who think that the Arena Commander is "more polished" than MWO.

[CompproB237]

So, with that said we can all agree that MWO is either in Alpha stage still or is in Perpetual Beta stage?


P.S. - Heffay, you have persistently attacked Star Citizen and only defended MWO. If that isn't a Bias, I don't know what is.

[Maggiman]

Yep, MWO sure is still in Alpha development. I find anything else depressing =(

[Roadbeer]

Heffay, on 29 July 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well, looks like you learned a fancy new term from Roadbeer,

Nope, not mine.
If he had said
#mechwarriorinnameonly
Used car salesmen without cars
or
ALPETA
Those would have been mine.
Know your memes Heffapalooza, know your memes.

[CompproB237]

Roadbeer, on 29 July 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Nope, not mine.
If he had said
#mechwarriorinnameonly
Used car salesmen without cars
or
ALPETA
Those would have been mine.
Know your memes Heffapalooza, know your memes.

ALPETA, is that a contraction of Alpha and Beta?

[Punkass]

CompproB237, on 29 July 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

ALPETA, is that a contraction of Alpha and Beta?

Perhaps a middle eastern animal rights organization?

[Heffay]

CompproB237, on 29 July 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

P.S. - Heffay, you have persistently attacked Star Citizen and only defended MWO. If that isn't a Bias, I don't know what is.

I've been a huge supporter. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best. Again: MVP poster. What have you done for the Star Citizen community?

Admitting that the game lacks polish and gameplay elements is *not* attacking the game. That's admitting it's in pre Alpha state and has a long road ahead of it.

Edited by Heffay, 29 July 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[CompproB237]

Heffay, on 29 July 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

MVP poster. What have you done for the Star Citizen community?

Admitting that the game lacks polish and gameplay elements is *not* attacking the game. That's admitting it's in pre Alpha state and has a long road ahead of it.

The context you originally made that statement was to put down Star Citizen. Also, MVP means absolutely nothing to me. You're attempting to showcase that you're Internet Famous?

[Vanguard319]

Heffay, on 29 July 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

They delayed the release of Arena Commander by *6 months* to add "polish". And it still has a very long way to go.

perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that it is still a more polished game, and hasn't been in alpha for all that long. What's PGIs excuse?

[Roadbeer]

[Punkass]

Heffay, on 29 July 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Didn't Star Citizen begin development in 2011 as well?

How would you compare the state of Star Citizen with MWO, which both began at the same time using the same engine?

Heffay, on 29 July 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Leader of $tar $itizen, the premier fund-raising experiment of the 21st century!

Will people spend $15,000 on virtual goods just on faith alone? CHRIS ROBERTS KNOWS!

Heffay, on 29 July 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Does that mean SC will be in Alpha until they've finished with all the stretch goals? Because it can't leave Alpha until all the announced content is complete for testing in Beta, right?

Can't wait for 2022! The Year of $tar $itizen!

So, putting your previous statements into context, you're not being critical of SC at all? These are all constructive points? Presuming none of the content will be delivered, or that it's going to be delayed for several years is being supportive of the game.

Heffay, on 29 July 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

I've been a huge supporter. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best. Again: MVP poster. What have you done for the Star Citizen community?

Admitting that the game lacks polish and gameplay elements is *not* attacking the game. That's admitting it's in pre Alpha state and has a long road ahead of it.

So admitting that the game lacks polish and gameplay elements is not attacking the game...when you take it out of context...your own context...