1258 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Felio, on 30 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Slowing the PPC projectile will make it much less useful as a sniping weapon. It also does nothing to nerf the gauss/PPC combo at shorter ranges.

Desyncing the firing is a much better solution, though I think 0.5 seconds is not long enough.

You also need to limit gauss charging to 1 rifle at a time. PPCs get 20 damage before ghost heat, LLs get about 20 (damage over time, no less), AC/20s get 20... why should gauss rifles, which travel farther and faster and can be fired indefinitely without heat, get 30?

It should be 2 PPCs, 1 PPC + 1 gauss, or 1 gauss.

That has always been backasswards logically.

Partical Projection cannons are shooting charged atomic comonents, which like EM propagate at nearly the speed of light. Guass is a slug, it has mass, a LOT of mass, thus takes a LOT more power (like astonomical amounts more) to achieve the same speeds.

.....but guass is faster....this is why you must never allow physics in mechwarrior....it breaks down all to hell right there.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Or just fixing the "spread" on the cER-PPCs.

Seriously go into the testing grounds and pull a couple mechs apart bit by bit and see just how terrible it actually is. (spoiler) you often aren't getting that 5 point spread, a lot of the time you aren't getting it at all.

The thing is... I'm not using nor PPC nor ERPPC either. Cause of it's awful spread and so random damage. I use LBX10 or AC20, sometimes GR. 4 a CQC I use 2x or3x or even 4xLPL which are more effective against all odds.

My point is, if they want to nerf something, they also need to buff something. Gauss for exsample. If during that nerf GR get's it's before clan invasion nerf values I'll be fine.

Plus in my oppinoin they are off-the context with this feedback thread. Where are new maps? Mechs? Weapons? Game modes? Where they are? Actually they done well with taking our attention on such useless things instead making more new content for the game.

WELL DONE PGI!

[S3dition]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 30 July 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Exactly. DW can be nerfed only by skill and adding such counterparts like Pillager and King Crab, but not by nerfing some weapons.

The direwolf is a tennis ball with a thumb tack glued to it. It's not physically possible to nerf it any further without disarming it completely.

[Sug]

Give the PPC a chance to explode like the Gauss rifle!

[S3dition]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 30 July 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

The thing is... I'm not using nor PPC nor ERPPC either. Cause of it's awful spread and so random damage. I use LBX10 or AC20, sometimes GR. 4 a CQC I use 2x or3x or even 4xLPL which are more effective against all odds.

My point is, if they want to nerf something, they also need to buff something. Gauss for exsample. If during that nerf GR get's it's before clan invasion nerf values I'll be fine.

Plus in my oppinoin they are off-the context with this feedback thread. Where are new maps? Mechs? Weapons? Game modes? Where they are? Actually they done well with taking our attention on such useless things instead making more new content for the game.

WELL DONE PGI!

Huh? What random damage? The values are fixed. There is no damage spread. And then you use the lbx because you don't like damage spread? Are we playing the same game?

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Or a SRM commando, or Jenner

.....god help both catch you, you don't stand a chance.

Use 2x or 3xLPL combo with AC20 or LBX10. Few pews and both gone to the better hunting place.

[Olrikus]

First solution looks ideal. No alpha even for macros users. And it's not fair when game mechanics can be broken by macros users.

Edited by Olrikus, 30 July 2014 - 09:41 AM.

[Minoxen]

I believe that the speed de-sync is much more preferable vs the complex charge combo mechanic. The 750ms would make it Very difficult to sync the ppc/gauss combo, but it does mean a look at other combos in that speed range might be justified.

AC5 = 1150m/s combos with the current 1080m/s at a difference of 70m/s This speed change to 750 will de-sync this combo by a greater margin (400m/s) as well (No complaints here) likely killing much of this combo.

AC10 = 950m/s is 130m/s off from current ppc making them a "Meh" ppc partner this will expand to 200m/s making them even less of a combo, not that this combo saw much if any play.

AC20 = 650m/s vs the current 1080 is a huge desparity at long range and even allowed for spread at the 270m optimal range. This change will put these 2 within 100m/s of eachother and its my opinion that the go-to combo will shift back towards the ac20 + 2ppc victor combo. This certainly limits the range of engagement, but enhances the pinpoint brawl accuracy. The heat generated will likely keep this on the 80ton+ chassis, but it will be back.

Even with the ac20 + 2ppc combo likely to re-emerge I think something needs to be done, and I'd much favor a speed change rather than more mechanics.

Just my 2 Cents =)

[Red Lynx]

If pinpoint damage is the issue, why not merge all front torso armor and all back torso armor. When the game was designed around random location it made sense to have more target location but when you can aim “with skill” it might be better to have fewer target location. Keep head, arms, legs, front and rear torso. The internals can stay the same but just combined all the armor location on the torso. It will take longer to open up the armor on the front side and give lights a reason to move to the back side to take out assaults and heavies. Lasers already spread their damage so this would not reduce their effectiveness. LRM would be in the same boat as lasers. It would reduce the dominance of pinpoint damage because you have to burn through all of torso armor not just a small section of it.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

The direwolf is a tennis ball with a thumb tack glued to it. It's not physically possible to nerf it any further without disarming it completely.

That's why I against nerfing something that way.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Huh? What random damage? The values are fixed. There is no damage spread. And then you use the lbx because you don't like damage spread? Are we playing the same game?

I just don't know how to cook that PPC, totally not my gun.

Red Lynx, on 30 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

If pinpoint damage is the issue, why not merge all front torso armor and all back torso armor. When the game was designed around random location it made sense to have more target location but when you can aim “with skill” it might be better to have fewer target location. Keep head, arms, legs, front and rear torso. The internals can stay the same but just combined all the armor location on the torso. It will take longer to open up the armor on the front side and give lights a reason to move to the back side to take out assaults and heavies. Lasers already spread their damage so this would not reduce their effectiveness. LRM would be in the same boat as lasers. It would reduce the dominance of pinpoint damage because you have to burn through all of torso armor not just a small section of it.

Pinpoint damage is not an issue. It's a part of a game. Get used to it.

[Falcore]

Maybe slow down the PPC by 25% and do the limiting things like you have said. I like the limiting of number that can be shot at a time.

Though I do think you are just going to move it to UAC5 and PPC together then.

Edited by Falcore, 30 July 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[CHH Badkarma]

You should really just nerf and bandaide everything. Because once the next weapons systems combo because popular and effective you will be forced to nerf that to do to the constant crying. Never ending cycle of nerfing and crying.

[Gas Guzzler]

Olrikus, on 30 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

First solution looks ideal. No alpha even for macros users. And it's not fair when game mechanics can be broken by macros users.

No one worth their salt at this game needs to use macros to sync PPCs and Gauss. Its sad how many people think you need to use macros to accomplish this.

CHH Badkarma, on 30 July 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

You should really just nerf and bandaide everything. Because once the next weapons systems combo because popular and effective you will be forced to nerf that to do to the constant crying. Never ending cycle of nerfing and crying.

Yep, if this de-sync goes through the next thing will be charging gauss while shooting lasers. You heard it here first.

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

Yo PGI. The players have spoken. The upper echelons of players, the competition teams, the high ELO crowd ALL disagree with this.

Stop making balancing changes to appeal to whining bads.

As it stands, the dominant IS mech is the Dragon Slayer with either PPC/Gauss or AC/5 / gauss. Nerfing the gauss/ppc combo will just usher in more ac/5 usage.

Nerfing PPC projectile speed will usher in a new age of ERLL boating.

PPCs are in a good spot, how about buffing lackluster mechs and weapon systems instead of squashing efficient playstyles?

[L Y N X]

Paul, Niko,

Your posts have confirmed my suspicions for a while now. PGI has stealth buffed PPCs from the time months and months ago when the PPC was nerfed to around 1100-1200 m/s and the Guass was buffed to somewhere around 1700 m/s. That was a good solution. But then PGI slowly began buffing the PPCs to faster projectile speeds, and PGI did this not once but several times so as to be not very noticeable during any one patch but became VERY obvious over months of patching, to the point where the Gauss and PPC projectile speeds were similar enough to bring this OP combo to the surface once more.

Conclusion, PGI brought this situation upon themselves and by not noting PPC projectile buffed in the Patch notes, PGI has lost further integrity in my eyes. Furthermore, PGI does not need to nerf the PPC projectile speed to 850m/s, 1100-1200 worked fine. BUT both Guass and PPC projectile speeds SHOULD NOT be within a few hundred m/s of each other as they were and are currently once again.

PS. I am on a small island with 36 other pilots. I represent a TEAM Special Forces MWO Division of about a battalion in strength on the roster.

[MechB Kotare]

Quote

Even though we in CSJ love our ER LLs im completely against nerfing Jumpsniping even more. Instead of nerfing, PGI could buff something instead. Dont want my ERLLs to get nerfed because bunch of bads dont know how to fight it, and dont want betters to loose a way to fight it. Screw you and your "Fixing" in form of nerfing everything that is viable.

You talk about balance, but only thing you really care about is making this game boring and noob friendly. Despite my respect towards PGI.

F*** you.

I dont understand why ER/PPC - Gauss needs a nerf? People need to understand that there was, is and always will be meta.

First you saw PPC ac5 combo stronk, never even thought about crying about Gauss PPC combo. Now bads wants even more nerfing and you want to completely comply?

I wont even bother writting something else, i'll just quote myself from other similar thread.

[Khan Hallis]

Bottom line is the designers are going to do what they feel they need to do. Ultimately satisfying the "gamers" of the community.

Ideas about speed reduction for Particles is sound, and so is the lock downs due to energy drains on the power systems and reactor. Anyone saying you've "lost" range due to reduced speed has lost sight of what the difference is between range and speed. They are not the same thing.
ERPPC's and standard PPC's should have same speed profile since they are the same type of weapon, only real difference is the extra range that an ERPPC has, which is also the reason for increased heat production in order to achieve that additional range.

But that is too complex a thought process for "gamers" since it is counter to what they WANT.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

ALL WE NEED IT THIS! Not an another useless nerf...

[Livewyr]

Now that you have quantified it, I can make my argument clearer.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

You can't make that call. You have no clue how large the cone of fire is with "good accuracy" That's a completely ambiguous term.

It mattered little, because:
What is Good accuracy for hitting an assault is piss poor for hitting a light.
What is Good accuracy for hitting a light is near perfect for hitting an assault.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

I envision good accuracy as hitting somwhere between the left and right arm on an atlas at 650 meters.

Now that we have a quantity, i can demonstrate.
1: If we move much closer to the atlas (like say the range of an AC20) you are picking out a component. (Cut that Atlas body spread down a third of Atlas body spread at 270)
2: With that much spread, you are looking at a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of hitting the spider at 650m, even if it is sitting perfectly still.

Atlas would be generally hosed at range. Spider would closer to immune, even while sitting still.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

That's 6 possible components you could hit at the PPC's long range, assuming neither you or your target is moving. And you have no control over which component is hit.

And a 33% chance of hitting a spider at all.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

How is that doing pinpoint damage in any way? How is that even remotely close to hitting the center torso every time on a moving target at 800+ meters like you can do now?

How is it going to be remotely close to hitting light mechs?

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

The PPC isn't even supposed to do ANY damage past 650 meters. The fact that it can is purely PGI's doing, and that's a really long range to retain accuracy for a combat vehicle that has a 1000m radar range. Good accuracy translates to hitting somewhere on the target at the maximum effective range, assuming both mechs are stationary. Excellent accuracy is hitting the component you aim for. Perfect accuracy is hitting the pixel you aim at (current state).

Components are different sizes in this game.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

So, yes, good accuracy is fine.

For the light mech.

Edited by Livewyr, 30 July 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[L Y N X]

Red Lynx, on 30 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

If pinpoint damage is the issue, why not merge all front torso armor and all back torso armor. When the game was designed around random location it made sense to have more target location but when you can aim “with skill” it might be better to have fewer target location. Keep head, arms, legs, front and rear torso. The internals can stay the same but just combined all the armor location on the torso. It will take longer to open up the armor on the front side and give lights a reason to move to the back side to take out assaults and heavies. Lasers already spread their damage so this would not reduce their effectiveness. LRM would be in the same boat as lasers. It would reduce the dominance of pinpoint damage because you have to burn through all of torso armor not just a small section of it.

This is the best argument for solving the pin point damage issue. It would improve client and server side game performance as well. It does get further away from cannon but in terms of balance, it makes logical sense.