1263 replies to this topic

[DrSlamastika]

Don't mess with a good weapons dear PGI please.
You do better if you will create some new content!

[Cerlin]

There has been some great ideas and some bad ideas in this thread, but the OP is pretty terrible. While shooting PPC and Gauss together is one of the most annoying mechanics right now, nerfing PPC speed isnt the answer. Just not being able to fire them together would work.

My biggest concern is the nerf the PPC into uselessness AGAIN. Keep all weapons viable.

[warner2]

What I would also add before I log off and wonder whether I'll ever get back to enjoying this game again is that given knowledge of what map they will be playing on it is already the case that players are not automatically equipping their GR and PPC (especially now that SRM seem to be working better). The MRBC league for example is played with private lobbies and specific maps each week. A lot of teams brawled in week 1 on Caustic, Tourmaline, Forest, Canyon and Frozen City (although the tonnage restrictions played into that, low tonnage tends to encourage short range combat).

Right from the start not knowing what map we are playing on makes 'mech builds homogeneous. Players will take JJ and they will take medium range direct fire weapons because simply put they will then do OK on ANY MAP. You punish non-JJ 'mechs on Canyon. Short range is risky because you might get Alpine or Tourmaline and may find it hard to get into range, LRMs are risky as you may end up on River City Night or another small map. The idea around at the start of open beta that not knowing the map would create 'mech builds that were jack-of-all-trades containing some long, some medium and some short range (for "backup" LOL) weapons was laughably naive. Players will boat and be super-effective in their chosen range and given the absence of knowing map you will drop onto that means medium range direct fire weapons. I said it back then and it turned out to be so true (surprise).

Maybe you should let players know what map they are dropping on. You'd see A LOT more brawling on I would say most maps. Heck, on the solo queue it's ALREADY a lot easier to brawl and I've been enjoying an SRM Centurion for the first time in a long time. It's sad that leg fall damage drove me to it and has discouraged me from using lights, however, that is another story. Of course you would also see a lot of LRMs and ERPPC on Alpine but what exactly is wrong with using long range weapons on maps with long sight-lines?

Show some restraint and stop making this game a convoluted mess or the player base will always remain what it is (sadly).

[Capsta]

Hellcat420, on 30 July 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

that didnt work for the gauss rifle, why do you think its gonna magically work now? people can and have easily worked around firing delays.

It didn't? I didn't realize that....Its been months and months since I've heard people whine about the gauss rifle, other than to say they suck with it.
You cannot balance skill out of a game. You can come close and lose your hardcore playerbase, but you can never fully balance skill out of it. What would be the point of that anyway?

~Cap.

[Jern]

Lets list all of the complicated efforts made by PGI to fix the problem of pin point accuracy. That's right I named the -REAL- problem not the "PPC/Gauss meta problem" because you see that is just a symptom of the pin point accuracy problem.

1) Doubling Armor per location.
2) Ghost heat
3) Gauss charge Delay
4) Charging multiple gauss restrictions
5) Slight off subject but add all of the AC nerfs to the list as they also were done to fix PPC combo accuracy balance.

All of the above game changing complicated hard to program and difficult to justify and implement solutions to fix a single problem. The reason they have not worked is because none of them are designed to fix the real problem. The above solutions only mitigate symptoms of the problem. So now just to prove to us that your not tired of chasing your own tail .. you want to implement another complicated solution to fix the Gauss/PPC Meta that ALL of the above things were already supposed to have fixed? Please wake up!

Single solution that would have made ALL of the above "fixes" unnecessary. - Minute of Angle Dispersion - Meaning relative inaccuracy of a projectile from it's aimed point.

I do not doubt that programming Dispersion mechanics is not as simple as PIE .. well actually.. But, all of us gamers that love simulations games and shooters have all seen and EXPECT accuracy related programming built into our games. I am sure you guys can figure out how to do it and probably far easier than the combined effort put forth to NOT solving the problem with all of the above "solutions". Is dispersion justifiable for all weapons? Absolutely! All for except maybe laser beams which do not need it because that is one of the few things you guys interpreted well from the start. Forcing us to keep an extended duration beam on target created the necessary dispersion all by itself.

Ballistics - No brainier here all ballistics including the Gauss are subject to inaccuracy it is a reality. Sure you could get complicated with it and say well in certain low atmospheric/gravity environments there is greater accuracy etc.. etc. Yeah well fire a gun a few times get the barrel hot and see the accuracy fall off dramatically even if the atmosphere and gravity did not affect it. The projectiles themselves have flaws that cause them to -leave the barrel- with a the slightest bits of dispersion. The point is you can use REAL physics to justify a random value of inaccuracy every time a ballistic weapon is fired .. even in space-. Do not try to make it over complicated and change it from map to map just give each weapon a value and let math do it's wondrous work.

PPC - PARTICLE PROJECTION - This is sci-fi so no reality here but the theory is your blasting charged particles through the air. Well LOTS of things can have minor affects on the course of Charged particles (ever seen a straight lightning bolt?) Ionic fields on the mechs themselves and in the air or ground could all create a dispersion effect very similar to that of ballistics.

Missiles are slightly off subject but worth mentioning because SRMs already have massive dispersion programmed into them. Some of them spread from the point of where they are aimed the moment they are fired. Streaks and LRMs - You need to give LRMs the same treatment you gave streaks for hitting something other than the CT ( but that is a debate for another thread).

In the end if you guys would simply start trying to fix Pin Point accuracy as many other games (trying not to name WoT...opps guess I did it.) have already done then you would finally "solve" many of your balance issues and would dramatically improve your game. You might even be able to turn off some of your unpopular changes and get some of your player base back!

Thanks,

Edited by Jern, 30 July 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Alreech]

so the first part problem is:
that all Mechs can replace a Machinge Gun or AC5 with a Gaußrifle and a Small or Medium Laser with a PPC, leading to a Meta with too much PPCs and Gaußrifles ?

and the second part of the problem is:
that all Weapon Projectils hit the same spot, because heat, actuator damage and movment doesn't affect gun convergenz, leading to a Meta with high pinpoint damage ?

and your new solution is to slow down reaload or projectil speed, because the old fix (adding additional heat to too muchs PPCs) didn't solve those two problems ?

Sounds like a good idea...

But would it be easier and more sensible to put a limit on the ammount of PPCs a Mech can mount, and to make gun convergenz subjected to movment, heat and acuator damage ?

Edited by Alreech, 30 July 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[Hellcat420]

Capsta, on 30 July 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

It didn't? I didn't realize that....Its been months and months since I've heard people whine about the gauss rifle, other than to say they suck with it.
You cannot balance skill out of a game. You can come close and lose your hardcore playerbase, but you can never fully balance skill out of it. What would be the point of that anyway?

~Cap.

there are still tons of ppc/gauss out there even with the gauss firing delay. why is that? oh ya, adding firing delay did not work. this game does not take skill to begin with, so there is no balancing skill out of the game. the fact that this game is point and click without any inaccuracy or environmental factors at all to compensate for removes skill from the game.

Edited by Hellcat420, 30 July 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[Baylien]

I'm glad that you are looking into the issue of combining Guass and PPC; its far to prevalent of a build right now.

However, I do feel that together the changes of the fire/charge blocking mechanism and the projectile speed reduction are to large of a reaction when combined. It seems to me that either one or the other would help reduce the overuse, with a personal preference for the blocking mechanism over the projectile speed change.
Cutting the projectile speed in half is a major punishment to the PPC weapon in general and affects all of its uses, not just when being combined with other weapons. The blocking mechanism allows you to selectively prevent certain combinations of weapons while not neutering a weapon when used on its own.

Thanks for continuing to improve the game.

[GoKuXo]

gauss+ppc has the same dps of the lrm20, but i dont see any nerf to avoid lrm40,50,60 or more... so why nerf the real anti-misil weapons.

pgi already nerf ppc in the past and that did not work


next time put 1 ballistic, 1 energy and 1 misil hard point in every mech and fix all the future combo-weapons problems

Edited by GoKuXo, 30 July 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[Cest7]

3.75 gauss recycle time please.

[Drogra]

Semper Fi, on 30 July 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

PPC/ERPPC speeds slow down as they move away from the mech. So, at 350m the bolt of lightning is moving 1200 m/s at 500m 950m/s at 800m 650 and so forth.

Gauss: Same speed, however one at a time can be fired due to draw on mech resources.
PPC: One can be fired if with Gauss (different power sources being used from engine), two can be fired if PPC's are linked. 3 cannot due to resources.
This keeps alpha to 30 for combo of PPC/Gauss, 30 with PPC. (Choice is there).
Also means ACs will come back in a hurry. However same concept can be used.

So now you are still effective against lights at short range, and the sniping gets harder/easier based on point of view. Lights might actually have to be scouts and what nots again instead of snipers.

Still think it should be reticle bloom. This would follow current FPS games that do the same thing.

Semper Fi.

PPC: Fires a particle, or stream of particles, at near light speed. Minimal slowdown at long range, but "bloom" works fine (a single particle is hard to properly project at long range).
PPC Mechanics: Extreme power draw (High heat, current model works), high damage (current model works for 1 particle, could be changed to 3-5 particles over a very short time frame, 0.2-0.5s would work), extreme range (current model works), High Accuracy (should bloom at long range, and massive bloom beyond that, ER has further "long range", and will bloom slower), extreme "projectile" speed (slower then lasers, faster then anything else, current model works given engagement ranges), long recharge time (no fire delay needed, the cool-down already is its fire delay, ER has longer recharge).

Gauss: Rail gun firing a solid slug (no propellant used, which is why the ammo doesn't explode). Minimal slowdown with range, but extreme accuracy at long+ range.
Gauss Mechanics: High Power draw + heat generated from accelerating the slug (High heat, 0 heat is bad for this type of weapon, probably about the same as a PPC), Long Range (Current model works), Pinpoint Accurate (current model works), High speed (slower then PPC, but much faster then AC's), Long Recharge time (slightly faster then PPC's, but longer then anything else).

Autocannons: Standard propellant projectile, with larger firing bigger bullet. Easy to equate to standard weapons, smaller shells will have higher velocity and better accuracy.
Autocannon Mechanics: All AC's should bloom, with UAC's having exactly the same bloom as the standard version, they just generate slightly more heat per shot, and fire twice as fast (2 barrels, with it attempting to reload each barrel as it empties, no double tap, simply 2x fire rate, but a jam chance each time it tries to reload). IMO, AC's and UAC's should use the same ammo (not BT cannon, but its the firing/reloading mechanism that changes, not the bullet).

Red Lynx, on 30 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

If pinpoint damage is the issue, why not merge all front torso armor and all back torso armor. When the game was designed around random location it made sense to have more target location but when you can aim “with skill” it might be better to have fewer target location. Keep head, arms, legs, front and rear torso. The internals can stay the same but just combined all the armor location on the torso. It will take longer to open up the armor on the front side and give lights a reason to move to the back side to take out assaults and heavies. Lasers already spread their damage so this would not reduce their effectiveness. LRM would be in the same boat as lasers. It would reduce the dominance of pinpoint damage because you have to burn through all of torso armor not just a small section of it.

This would be the easiest and probably most fair fix. Lights and Mediums would gain a HUGE increase in survivability (especially Hunchbacks), and torso twisting on assaults and heavies wouldn't be as "if you don't do this, you suck" unless they were able to catch shots with their arms. Internal criticals would pull from 36 locations, with only ammo/gauss explosions prioritizing the "side torso" when dealing internal damage. XL engines would have double the chance to get crit over standard (Clan XL +80% chance), so it would still be a risk, but it would open the option up to a lot of Mediums AND Heavies that can't currently mount them because of their huge side torso(s) (You can shoot a Hunchbacks right torso when he has is left side facing you directly, making an XL engine suicide). This would also reduce the durability of "zombie tough" mechs, as shots into the side torso are treated the same as shots to the center torso, causing all mechs to not be "zombie tough".

[Conductor Rarity]

This is a monumentally awful idea. A short sighted band-aid fix instead of fixing the real issue of weapon convergence and perfect pinpoint accuracy every time you pull the trigger. This just invalidates a weapon combo so we'll have to move on to the next perfect pinpoint combo that still works. Like 2ppc 2ac5, or 2ppc ac20 (again) if you lower the speed that much.

[BlackDrakon]

<p>Leave the big alphas alone, give the SRMs more punch, put them back to 2.5 per missile, and the game will get an even more brawly change.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its fun to one shot a light or a medium, if Im not mistaken, TT rules implies that a light cant get a direct hit from an AC/20, the problem is that ppl cant get that 60 alpha Direwolf yet, so they are qqing about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Direwolfs are slow ass whales, but hey, if u run in front of one ull die, it should be like that! its a 100 ton mech with a 60 alpha!! gtfo!! don't try to brawl him in a light or a medium!!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I mean, if u watch an elephant at ramming speed going straight to u, u don't stay still right? u gtfo and scream like a little girl!! Same story here ppl!!!</p>
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[Mazgazine1]

I think we need to step back.

Remove ALL the current weapon mechanics and start at the beginning. So no ghost heat , no gauss restrictions, no gauss charging

We need a CONE OF FIRE, you fire more stuff - the less accurate it is. How hard is that?

This is the only way to make this work.

its easy - there are 3 factors that would affect the size of your cone of fire - Speed/movement, weapon type, and getting hit.

All laser weapons will have the highest accuracy - they make no recoil. This makes them easier to fire all together, but movement and such with still affect them - maybe even some laser drift.



Next - light ballistics

AC2 1% change per shot

AC5 1% change per shot

UAC2 1.5% change per shot

UAC5 1.5% change per shot

Light ballistics would generate recoil, but when firing them in rapid succession the accuracy cone will grow. Makes sense - lots of rapid recoil - after a couple of volleys the accuracy could drop to 70% at 500m

Medium Ballistics -

AC10 10% change per shot

PPC 9% change per shot

this Would be where firing a lot of them would start to be impractical firing 3 or more at onc results in 30% drop in accuracy at 500m, but 2 together or in succession would keep accuracy from getting to low.

Heavy / Long range

ERPPC 12.5%

AC20 20%

Gauss 15%

So firing 3 gauss would at once would get you stuck with 55% accuracy - bascially firing in the vicinity and hoping to hit something. Using more then one or two big guns at the same time become brawling range only weapons or for patient snipers.



Obviously we would have to figure how fast your accuracy would recover, but I would think that the slower your mech moves, the more you regenerate accuracy. So going really slow like a direwolf or DDC would have a mechanical advantage of simply being slower and easier to aim with. If you were a fast ballstic mech you would want to hide and get your accuracy back up before heading back in.

This allows users to chain fire for sniping, but also requires them to stand still for good shots - leaving them open to laser fire.

Lights would probably have 80-90% accuracy at full speed if they only use lasers, but say a black jack going 100K firing an ac20 - would only recover a few % points of accuracy and would require being really close to a target to hit them.

What this does to the meta -

when you jump - your accuracy goes down - no more weird shaking - it would probably be 10-15% accuracy at 500m after a 2-3JJ burn - firing more then one weapon at the pinnacle of a jump would in-turn drop you to around 60-70% if you were firing PPCs and AC5s. this would either force you to use more beam weapons to keep accuracy up, or use less weapons at a time.

Missles without ghost heat - it might be wise to increase their heat generation in general? still preventing LRM boats from being too scary, but they are already as accuracte as they need to be, but the cone could widen their missile spread.

Oh yeah, LBXs would be the least affected but they would still generate as much accuracy change as their counterparts. BUT - they would cause the most accuracy drop for on enemies. but again figuring out how much your accuracy drops from getting hit would have to be factored into how much your accuracy reocvers.


so thats what I want. I don't want ghost heat, or bizzare firing mechanics, I want an accuracy system. Lasers would suddenly be always a good alternative, ppcs and heavy guns would need skill or patience, and brawling would be king.

Edited by Mazgazine1, 30 July 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[GXMan]

I'm just putting this on record. I'm completely okay with dual gauss and dual PPCs.

[Wintersdark]

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Spoiler

You seem to have some issue with thinking that a spider should be just as easy to hit as an atlas. This is not the case. A light mech should be harder to hit regardless of the circumstances. This is not an issue. What is an issue is that a spider can move at 140kph over rolling hills while jump jetting with absolute precision in their shots.

The notion that a target should not be easier to hit as you get closer is rubbish, and you know it. That's how it should work. Brawlers sacrifice long range anonymity for greater accuracy. They are either rewarded with a better chance to hit a specific component or torn to pieces by the enemy team. We call this balance. What is not balanced, and what is the center of discussion, is the ability to fire a large number of medium to long range weapons and hit the same component at a range that the weapon was never even designed to work at.

Cone of fire has worked well in dozens (if not hundreds) of game sand suffers from none of the issues you are trying to apply to it. It's a far more accurate interpretation of variances in where you aim and where you hit.

Yes, light mechs will have a slight advantage due to size - THEY SHOULD. Use lasers and guided missiles.
Light mechs will have a severe disadvantage when moving very fast and using jump jets - THEY SHOULD. Long range weapons are meant to aim and shoot, not run and gun.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

How do you know? Can you point out the exact reference to the numbers in MWO where lights have to slow down &quot;only a little?&quot; Oh, wait, those mechanics aren't in, so we can make them inaccurate starting at 20kph if necessary. Ask people who play lights if 20kph is slowing down &quot;just a little&quot;.

You can't make calls based on perceived numbers. They can be anything that PGI makes them.

You do understand that reticule bloom *is* cone of fire, right? The idea is an expanding cone of fire based on circumstance.

As to your second post: Yes, PGI could totally botch it, but that applies to everything.

However, if you're using the concepts in my post, it's a net buff to lights and brawlers. Most lights are using short range weaponry. At short ranges, a couple degrees of CoF is irrelevant, particularly when firing at a large target. Lights engaging at long ranges can slow to 75%speed and fire with pinpoint accuracy (most tend to slow/stop for long range sniping anyways), slowing when you're at 600+m isn't a death sentence. Particularly as mechs in this situation tend to be peeking out of cover anyways.

But a small light at range? Practically impossible to hit if the firing mech has any CoF - so he'd need to slow, aim carefully, be on the ground and at moderate or lower heat. Vulnerable.

This all makes sniping every bit as dangerous. You CAN land distant, pinpoint shots. But you need to be vulnerable to do it. You can't do it while running at top speed, etc, etc.

[Livewyr]

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

You seem to have some issue with thinking that a spider should be just as easy to hit as an atlas.

They are already much harder to hit than an atlas. (1/4th its size and moving 3 times as fast.)

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

This is not the case. A light mech should be harder to hit regardless of the circumstances. This is not an issue. What is an issue is that a spider can move at 140kph over rolling hills while jump jetting with absolute precision in their shots.

Harder to hit, yes, as they already are. What you are talking about is making a successful hit on this a piece of blind luck.

I do not understand how you can see this as a healthy maneuver, why would I bother taking a long range weapon if now, in addition to adjusting for speed, lead-times, cursor scroll, etc.. I now have to pray that the RNG diety is with me.

Well, I should say, why would I bother taking a long range weapon in anything but a spider or Kitfox.. I can sit at at range with relative impunity because even if my opponent is a crack shot, he has to pray to the RNG gods for a hit on me... That is called "Skill reduction"

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

The notion that a target should not be easier to hit as you get closer is rubbish, and you know it. That's how it should work. Brawlers sacrifice long range anonymity for greater accuracy. They are either rewarded with a better chance to hit a specific component or torn to pieces by the enemy team. We call this balance. What is not balanced, and what is the center of discussion, is the ability to fire a large number of medium to long range weapons and hit the same component at a range that the weapon was never even designed to work at.

Yeah, it heavily punishes snipers and people with a talent for placing their shots accurately, with the the random number generator decided their fate, with a 2-3-4 to-hit MULTIPLIER for smaller mechs.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Cone of fire has worked well in dozens (if not hundreds) of game sand suffers from none of the issues you are trying to apply to it. It's a far more accurate interpretation of variances in where you aim and where you hit.

Well yeah, as I pointed out for Yok.. NONE OF THE OTHER GAMES HAVE TINY LITTLE TARGETS. They have uniform sizes, with uniform speeds so the same Cone of fire effects EVERYONE equally.

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yes, light mechs will have a slight advantage due to size - THEY SHOULD. Use lasers and guided missiles.
Light mechs will have a severe disadvantage when moving very fast and using jump jets - THEY SHOULD. Long range weapons are meant to aim and shoot, not run and gun.

I think you and I have a different view of "slightly."

----------------------------------------

I can honestly say, I would drop this game in half a heartbeat if they implement what you suggest. Not only is CoF terrible in general for a game with as many weapon considerations as we have now, it gives monumental advantage to a player simply for the mech they are in.

(Or were you not here when the Raven hit-boxes were broken? That was just a TASTE of RNG applied to this game.)

Edited by Livewyr, 30 July 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[knight-of-ni]

While I can certainly understand the idea behind taking steps to limit certain weapon combos, the method used to implement this violates the KISS principle, and therefore I am opposed to it.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

What about reducing our Heat Capacity? And introducing Heat Effects?

Setting us at a 30 Max for automatic shutdown would be a good start to reduce big FLD, and then adjusting Heat Scale penalties before adding more Staged systems can then be used to adjust outlier builds that are problems after that point.

[PropagandaWar]

Here's a thought or three if your that worried about it:
*Make any weapon over 7 tons extremely slow when converging and cause the mech to kick (Recoil) when it fires.
*Make torso weapons Static so they can't converge (I know that's a complete redesign) Oh damn.
*Come up with some silly reason on how the PPC’s discharge effects the Gauss Rifles Magnetic field when firing so they can’t fire together.
No matter what get rid of that stupid charge mechanic.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 30 July 2014 - 02:14 PM.