1263 replies to this topic

[Taelon Zero]

Both bad ideas, either make PPCs useless (compaired to Large Laser) or stop the PPC Gauss combo so you can then try stop PPC AC combo. Total over kill.

[Mindnut]

Hi all,
I don't mind the lockdown idea just cause I hate those Direwolf alphas.
I do however HATE the slow PPC idea...

I remember the days when I could field a dual ER PPC CPLT-K2 (my favorite 'mech) and get up to 800 dmg per match. After the nerf I changed back to PPC's and now it's hard to get 500 dmg - I get around 300 average. Same with Battlemaster when you nerfed the ac's... I can't get used to the changes and I'm tired of constant changes.

I understand that nerfing these weapons was ment to bring down the damage for better balance, but I don't understand why you made clans op - they easily get over 700 damage. (This opinion is by average and derived from observation).

Imho clans are waaaay op, whatever changes you want to make please do not let the changes effect IS 'mechs - they don't need any more nerfing - I'll even get used to dire-alphas (quick fix = avoid confrontation).

Soon after clans came out I made a prediction that when clans come out for c-bills IS 'mechs will disappear from the battlefield. I'll make a further prediction - you're going to nerf the clans and bring down their damage, then bring in another pack of op 'mechs.

Take care,
Mind

Edited by Mindnut, 01 August 2014 - 04:34 AM.

[Leigus]

So many ideas involving convoluted mechanics. So few ideas involving a cone-of-fire to weapon convergence...

[Jakob Knight]

One last thing that is puzzling me...

"I'm going to pre-empt the concern that nothing has happened with the PPC/Gauss combination in the game and Russ mentioning work being done on it for this patch.

The new firing mechanic that Russ was mentioning is indeed in the game right now but it is set to off."


Where, in the Forums, did Russ mention this? I don't remember anything posted about this here, and at the same time, I know the Devs wouldn't be playing favorites with information by only releasing such important info only on non-official sources like NGNG (which I can't listen to since they discontinued publishing their RSS podcasts) or Facebook (which I don't use).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 01 August 2014 - 02:59 AM.

[Wolfways]

PPC's are okay where they are. A long range weapon needs to have a fast projectile speed, otherwise you turn it into a shorter ranged weapon and make it as useless at its intended purpose as direct-fired LRM's.
Imo PPC's should not be slower than 1000ms, but 1500ms is fine.

[Ryoken]

I think both solutions are bad.

The first solution is overly complicated. The second one will simply push PPCs into the sync with ACs again.


So once again. In MWO everyone tells that players beeing able to put out a lot damage in one alpha shot is the problem. Also, and this is a problem concerning MWO in special is that the player, unlike in TT where the damage is spread across all of the targets armor sections by 2d6 rolls, can place all this damage into one location.

My suggestion to solve this problem is not to try to spread this high alpha pinpoint damage in a timely manner, as both suggestions of the OP do, but to take away the ability to focus so much damage of this one high alpha volley into one location.

So how about integrating a weapon specific standard deviation of weapons, and make that deviaton bigger the more weapons are fired simultaniously?

In real life and also in battletech lore no weapon fires in an ideal line. There always is a weapon specific scatter that can get worse with weather conditions for example. Also battletech lore more than once explains the low quality of aiming systems and targeting computers. So it would even be supplemeted by lore, that the more weapons the mechs targeting systems have to take care of at the same time, the bigger the scatter might get.

So we could get a dynamic reticle like in WoT which tells us the current weapons scatter and it even could incorporate our mechs movement, the torso movement and the arm movement. So the more we move around the longer our targeting systems will take to focus. This will still allow to do fast aimed shots with single weapons. And also allow quick action high alpha folley shots, but those will suffer accuracy as firing several weapons while moving up a corner and back puts a lot of stress on the mechs targeting systems.

By this we could not only use the timely desync of weapons, which actually works fine for lasers, ACs, PPC and missiles.
But also add the focus desync to further avoid instant kills or location amputations by pinpoint high alpha dmg volleys.

Using both mechanisms timely and focus desync of weapons give us:
Laser - are desynced of other weapons by beam duration, could also get a scatter as the deciation is targeting system based
Missiles - are desynced by different arcs, flight times and loc on (allready got scatter!)
AC - are desynced by different flight times, ballastic flight path, do use burst fire in case of Clans, (HOPEFULLY InnerShere ACs will get short bursts to!) And may get scatter to!
and the two still missing systems that by the players ability to compensate the timely desync of the Gaussrifles chargetime
PPCs - are allready desynced timely by flight time and could now get scatter desync from Gauss and AC as well
Gaussrifles - are allready desynced by charge time but now also get scattered from PPC and Gauss by scatter as well

I know this would take a more complex and costly rework of gamecode - but it would result in an uncomplex implementation of further weapon desync which is easy to grasp for the player as WoT allready shows. Every player understands that the more he moves his tank over bumpy terrain or turns his turret the less precise he can fire his weapons. The same is true in WMO but simply translates into mech movement (possible further tweekin of jumpsniping) and torso twisting - plus it could take into account how many weapons get fired.

So we players still can jumpsnipe. We players still can peek a boo around a corner and unleash an dualGauss+dualPPC alpha. But instead of putting all damage into one location we will put all that damage into the mech more evenly distributed accross its armor. This should make balancing this game more easy and better as the whole armor diagramm is based on distributed damage as in TT every weapon to hit role is done seperate for every weapon. It just works a lot worse if you would simply roll one time and put all damage into one location. And this is what is giving so much problems right now in MWO with the dualGauss+dualPPC beeing an extreme case of showing the dilema of using an armor diagram for scattered damage in a pinpoint damage situation.

So what do you think? Cheers Ryo

Edited by Ryoken, 01 August 2014 - 04:14 AM.

[fyurian]

First rant ever: how about not changing it at all?
People are complaining about every weapon & build except the one they use! lurm boat, poptarts, ppc gauss DW
Im sick of it... deal with the game play or gtfo

Now that that is fixxed how bout a real suggestion:
Just being able to equip 2 Gauss or 2ppc or 1of each
main reason because of the energy drain...... (lame reason)

[Zyllos]

Ryoken, on 01 August 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

I think both solutions are bad.

The first solution is overly complicated. The second one will simply push PPCs into the sync with ACs again.


So once again. In MWO everyone tells that players beeing able to put out a lot damage in one alpha shot is the problem. Also, and this is a problem concerning MWO in special is that the player, unlike in TT where the damage is spread across all of the targets armor sections by 2d6 rolls, can place all this damage into one location.

My suggestion to solve this problem is not to try to spread this high alpha pinpoint damage in a timely manner, as both suggestions of the OP do, but to take away the ability to focus so much damage of this one high alpha volley into one location.

So how about integrating a weapon specific standard deviation of weapons, and make that deviaton bigger the more weapons are fired simultaniously?

In real life and also in battletech lore no weapon fires in an ideal line. There always is a weapon specific scatter that can get worse with weather conditions for example. Also battletech lore more than once explains the low quality of aiming systems and targeting computers. So it would even be supplemeted by lore, that the more weapons the mechs targeting systems have to take care of at the same time, the bigger the scatter might get.

So we could get a dynamic reticle like in WoT which tells us the current weapons scatter and it even could incorporate our mechs movement, the torso movement and the arm movement. So the more we move around the longer our targeting systems will take to focus. This will still allow to do fast aimed shots with single weapons. And also allow quick action high alpha folley shots, but those will suffer accuracy as firing several weapons while moving up a corner and back puts a lot of stress on the mechs targeting systems.

By this we could not only use the timely desync of weapons, which actually works fine for lasers, ACs, PPC and missiles.
But also add the focus desync to further avoid instant kills or location amputations by pinpoint high alpha dmg volleys.

Using both mechanisms timely and focus desync of weapons give us:
Laser - are desynced of other weapons by beam duration, could also get a scatter as the deciation is targeting system based
Missiles - are desynced by different arcs, flight times and loc on (allready got scatter!)
AC - are desynced by different flight times, ballastic flight path, do use burst fire in case of Clans, (HOPEFULLY InnerShere ACs will get short bursts to!) And may get scatter to!
and the two still missing systems that by the players ability to compensate the timely desync of the Gaussrifles chargetime
PPCs - are allready desynced timely by flight time and could now get scatter desync from Gauss and AC as well
Gaussrifles - are allready desynced by charge time but now also get scattered from PPC and Gauss by scatter as well

I know this would take a more complex and costly rework of gamecode - but it would result in an uncomplex implementation of further weapon desync which is easy to grasp for the player as WoT allready shows. Every player understands that the more he moves his tank over bumpy terrain or turns his turret the less precise he can fire his weapons. The same is true in WMO but simply translates into mech movement (possible further tweekin of jumpsniping) and torso twisting - plus it could take into account how many weapons get fired.

So we players still can jumpsnipe. We players still can peek a boo around a corner and unleash an dualGauss+dualPPC alpha. But instead of putting all damage into one location we will put all that damage into the mech more evenly distributed accross its armor. This should make balancing this game more easy and better as the whole armor diagramm is based on distributed damage as in TT every weapon to hit role is done seperate for every weapon. It just works a lot worse if you would simply roll one time and put all damage into one location. And this is what is giving so much problems right now in MWO with the dualGauss+dualPPC beeing an extreme case of showing the dilema of using an armor diagram for scattered damage in a pinpoint damage situation.

So what do you think? Cheers Ryo

Essentially, this is just a background value that increases/decreases based on actions:

• 0% throttle (standing still)
  
• <=66% throttle (walking)
  
• >66% throttle (running)
  
• Firing weapons (either by chain firing or alpha)
  
• Movement actions (jump jetting or falling)

Once a value is determined for that specific instance, when a weapon is fired, this value determines the current distribution of fire. This is a slightly complex solution with a very intuitive feel.

This has been suggested MANY months ago (early 2013/late 2012?) with something called a TCS/TCL (Targeting Computer Stress/Targeting Computer Load). It's just a value that increases/decreases based on actions and time that determine the spread of weapons.

[Khobai]

Quote

If Gauss and PPCs are a problem...

Why not simply reduce the damage?

because its not convoluted enough.

besides slowing ppcs down to like 100m/s will make all the metahumping babies cry. that alone is worth it.

[Domoneky]

Lets not change a damn thing and force players to adapt to the current state of the game while PGI work on CW and other content that everyone cries about

[William Warriors]

Firstly, the Gauss weapon was a good weapon.. there was nothing wrong with it until they decide to have a pre-firing charge add to the weapon where the weapon had to RECHARGE every time after it had fired.

That make the Gauss rifle a less distributed weapon to players that it was before, it can't target light mech or fast mech, useless in a brawl

I had sold all my gauss rifles because of this and now they are going to over complicate things with another brain damage idea.

So.. NO! And if you want to fix something, fix the damn Lag every time a game was played, REMOVE pre-firing charging of the gauss rifles. That way perhaps it will restore my faith that PGI is run by intelligent designers.

While you are at it, remove ghost heat too... that make the game more fun.. now that clan mech is out, perhaps we inner sphere pilot had a chance against them.

I don't use PPC because it always run too hot.. and I don't use gauss rifles because they can't hit fast mechs.. so it does not affect me.

Edited by William Conrad, 01 August 2014 - 07:32 AM.

[Junzo]

I've always been surprised that this FPS shooter has no cone of fire. Players of FPS have always looked for the gun that had the smallest cone of fire so that their shots are as accurate as possible. Rather than making all these complicated mechanics, players have been asking for a cone of fire since the start. The introduction of targeting computers is a perfect introduction to a cone of fire. The larger your targeting computer, the smaller your cone of fire. If a players wants a accurate poptart sniper then he needs a 7 ton targeting computer to be pixel accurate at long ranges. Brawlers won't take the computer because they want to be in close range anyway. So we see that players can make more decisions on their play-style and equipment load-out.

Standing still makes for a very accurate cone while moving and jumping cause a expand. This is a mechanic that every FPS player is familiar with and the cone of fire also appeases the table top crowd. PPC and AC cause a larger bloom in Cone of Fire (CoF) due to the explosive nature of the projectile. Lasers and Gauss cause no bloom. Gauss casing no bloom due to the magnetic effect launching the projectile. Keep the charging mechanic in though. AC 20s cause a significant bloom due to the recoil. AC 2s cause a very very slight increase in bloom with each successive firing as their projectile isn't big. Projectiles are affected by many more factors than lasers so the lasers can be kept as they are currently.

I can hear now IS pilots saying that they doesn't have access to Targeting Computers yet. When CoF is introduced then by then IS have designed their own TCs. Set it up with different stats than the Clan TC but make the cone of fire reduction the same.

Setting programmers aside after current projects to make a change to a CoF would in the long run make things more fun. It's much easier to make adjustments to CoF then creating all these new weaponfire restrictions for balance. If I can get close enough to target your specific armor area then I deserve the alpha I put into it. However what no one likes currently is the alpha from a assault poptart from across the map all hitting the exact same location.

[Malleus011]

If we had a simple cone of fire mechanic, affected by movement, high heat levels, jumping, and targeting computers, then we could remove the Ghost Heat and other band-**** and avoid both of these horrible ideas.

Many people have suggested excellent ways of doing this in dozens of good threads. Yes, some people hate it - they can stand still or put in a huge TC and make it go away. The rest of us can get back to having fun.

[Maxx Blue]

Someone mentioned just nerfing damage. I'm not sure that is ideal, but I could also get behind that option more than the two presented. Knock Gauss down to 12 and PPC down to 8 (splash down to 1.5 or 2 on clan ERPPC's) and let people keep firing what they are now. That would knock the dire-whale alpha from 50 down to 40 and the timber-tart from 35 to 28. Maybe throw that up on the test server and see what people think. I still think cone-of-fire/Dispersion is a better answer, but I would be willing to try a damage nerf rather than the original suggestions.

[NoClass]

Movement based cone of fire is bad. It nerfs lights who rely on speed to offset poor armor and light weaponry. It does not fundamentally alter the fact that the most efficient way to get a kill is to front load damage onto a single component. As such, it encourages camping and discourages pushing and brawling by virtue of inherent inaccuracy due to movement. It's a better gamble to let the other team cross the trench.

Edited by VigilanceHawkwind, 01 August 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[Mitsuragi]

Zyllos, on 01 August 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

Essentially, this is just a background value that increases/decreases based on actions:

• 0% throttle (standing still)
  
• <=66% throttle (walking)
  
• >66% throttle (running)
  
• Firing weapons (either by chain firing or alpha)
  
• Movement actions (jump jetting or falling)

Once a value is determined for that specific instance, when a weapon is fired, this value determines the current distribution of fire. This is a slightly complex solution with a very intuitive feel.


This has been suggested MANY months ago (early 2013/late 2012?) with something called a TCS/TCL (Targeting Computer Stress/Targeting Computer Load). It's just a value that increases/decreases based on actions and time that determine the spread of weapons.

THIS, WE NEED THIS. Face it PGI, it's time to add scatter to our weapons and implement a cone of fire.

Domoneky, on 01 August 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

Lets not change a damn thing and force players to adapt to the current state of the game while PGI work on CW and other content that everyone cries about

They have multiple people working at this company. There's a "content" team and a "bug fix" team. While these teams might only be 1 person each they are typically completely separate. Just because you want to LITERALLY THROW EVERY PERSON at a project doesn't mean they can all meaningfully contribute.

[Daddy Pig]

Mitsuragi, on 01 August 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

THIS, WE NEED THIS. Face it PGI, it's time to add scatter to our weapons and implement a cone of fire.

So a skilled player aims the head and hit an arm, an unskilled one aims in the general direction of a mech and get an headshot. No, thank you.

[Sandpit]

This is turning into 3pv all over again. Bad idea. None of the customers, those guys that pay the bills at pgi, LIKE EITHER of these ideas. I really hope they read through some of the ideas here

Edited by Sandpit, 01 August 2014 - 01:14 PM.

[NoClass]

Daddy Pig, on 01 August 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

So a skilled player aims the head and hit an arm, an unskilled one aims in the general direction of a mech and get an headshot. No, thank you.

I don't think that aspect is a very large issue since it's no different that most FPS games. Unlike those games, mechs don't move at the same top speeds, accelerate and decelerate at the same rate, have the same hitboxes, have the same proportions or the same amount of health. Because of these disparities, movement based cone of fire is a god awful mechanic.

It buffs mechs with more narrow geometry and brutalizes mechs with wide set geometry depending on the amount of spread. In any event, the more narrow the mech is, the better chance incoming fire is distributed and vice versa.

Edited by VigilanceHawkwind, 01 August 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Verkhne]

HUGE CLAN NERF (and awesome now too, lol)

There goes Clan pinpoint, advantage IS. My biggest damage games in a DWF are the multi-UAC set ups, the dual Gauss/PPC mech is much harder to use , but can damage poptarts quite well.

This will also have major ramifications to the Warhawk, which with its ammo storage issues runs quite well with 4 cer-PPC. I think it will move the Warhawk along with the Summoner and Adder to the "DO NOT BUY" list.