1263 replies to this topic

[ParaOrdnance]

I think that I understand why you want to do this, but I do have two observations that need to be brought into the light here.

First and foremost I am concerned about nerfing anything at this point. When direct fire weapons were steadily nerfed and then lrms buffed (around april I think) we lost a ton of players and I feel that the game nearly died. I certainly didn't enjoy play as much. In general the introduction of the clans have brought us partially out of this. However with the introduction of new competition in the form of star citizen and the like it becomes ever more important to watch out with the constant nerfing of direct fire weapons. Once again and with emphasis the nerfing of direct fire weapons NEARLY KILLED THIS GAME.

Secondly there's the point of the meta gamer, which is apparently what you are going after here. In general these guys are always going to find the weapons platform that allows them to do the most damage while at the same time taking the least damage. This is natural and should be seen as a natural byproduct of competition. The elo system that you have should keep these guys away from your less skilled players, and I really feel that this is where the modification should be. If you don't keep the meta away from the newbs then you are forever going to be chasing your tail on this. Six months from now it's going to be "you need to nerf ac5/3ppc timberwolves!" or something of the like.

So the real solution is to keep the meta away from the newbs and low elo players as much as possible. I feel that aggressive development here is going to do you more long run good than anything that I have seen proposed thus far. Also in order to show fairness between the high and low elo players I suggest that every nerf to direct fire come with a similar nerf to indirect fire weapons. "You can have your lack of 2xppc 2xgauss dire wolves but you also get a 35% bump to ams effectiveness" or something of the like. This will allow the high elo guys to think that you at least kind of care about them.

In short and to wrap this up I feel that if you do not balance your nerf/buff of the low and high elo players and instead continue to pander to the least common denominator at the expense of the experienced player you will once again break this game. Tread lightly friends...

[Madok Pryde]

I personally like the idea of limitations on the number of high pinpoint damage weapons fired at once.
In my opinion, limiting 2ppc or 1 pock gauss is the way to go. It keps the "meta" player from instability some noob.
Steps in the right direction, obviously will need some tweeking, but a start.

Edited by Madok Pryde, 31 July 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[Mitsuragi]

Shuruga, on 31 July 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

You once again will remove diversity from the game. I fear that after many more of these changes we will all arrive at mediocre-playing mechs, with no single advantage or unique selling points. In essence, a boring game, where the difference in mechs is only in the name (Just my pessimistic outlook, after the recent JJ and modules changes, a bleak future seems ahead).

We're not far from that now. The games I play in are full of PPC+Gauss standard. If every mech packs the same weapons aren't we already at a bunch of mediocre mechs using the same weapons over and over?

I don't believe changing PPC impulse speed or tying PPC and Gauss to the same charging mechanic will solve the issue. The best solution I've seen so far is splashing PPC damage further and/or my earlier suggestion of taking all other weapon systems out of the equation with Gauss. Let Gauss fire on its own and prevent any other weapons from firing while its charging and for 0.5 seconds afterwards.

Edited by Mitsuragi, 31 July 2014 - 02:33 PM.

[Skull Leader2]

I say just leave the content alone for now. Instead of fixing small portion of the game, how about we actually finish building the game. There is always time to go back and balance but finish the game. If you had a robust community warfare system and fixed the economy this wouldn't even be an issue. People might think differently about their loadouts if they had to pay for damage and ammo again. This would also fix the LRM boat issue after people blew through their stockpiles of C-bills.

[focuspark]

Another "ghost heat" no UI, completely non-discoverable, convoluted, confusing solution to a simple problem. I'm losing faither here, I really am.

Simple Fix:
* Gauss have a charge before fire (complete)
* PPC spread to all sections in a radius around the impact point (similar to how ERPPC works today)

[Mister Blastman]

Paul--this is a serious question:

Have you ever considered making the projectiles inherit the firing 'mech's vector and velocity?

This would increase the skill threshold for FLD pinpoint weapons considerably!

[AztecD]

why are you guys even considering this?

gauss+ppc are not broken, gauss got that dumb charge thing, leave it like that.

only a few mechs can carry 2ppc+gauss so why pull a invalid game mechanic our of your a** just for a few chassis

dont do it PGI

[Ripper X]

ToxinTractor, on 31 July 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

I actually like this idea. Maybe while we charge the gauss rifle the lights of the mech will flicker?

The cockpit internal lights dim while the Gauss recharges. Is not really that noticeable unless it is on a dark map.

I would be perfectly fine with the Gauss/PPC combo changes. Speed reduction for the PPC I am not cool with. If yer gonna decrease the speed then please make it over 1000 meters a second. At 750 it would take 2 seconds to hit a target at 1400 meters away. That is just wrong for an energy weapon.

[Draxist]

Homeless Bill, on 29 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Bottom line: the weapon lock mechanic is awkward, and there's no way to make it not awkward. And the alternative of changing PPC speed will just make it synergize with higher-calibre autocannons better, so people will switch to that. Sure, it negates the range, but the problem is still ultimately 30+ pinpoint damage to a single location.

I'm begging you to consider something like this. A hurricane of bandaids has done half of what a serious effort to tackle front-loaded damage could do, and you'd have the added benefit of having another way to balance over/under-performing variants.

If you're going to go with weapon lock, at least combine it with that sort of scale so that all weapons can be balanced accordingly. One-off mechanics like what's being proposed are really awkward.

You could argue that it's complicated, but how is it any more so than the combination of this arbitrary mechanic, Ghost Heat, the Gauss charge, and all the other jumpjet and PPC adjustments it's taken to get even this close? Please go comprehensive and get this over with.

I vote this suggestion. Does this count as a vote on the new changes? Because I vote for this.

[Almeras]

Seems to me a Soft cap of pin point damage to a single location from a single source is needed

Say;
Soft cap=35 dmg
Hard cap=45dmg


It keeps pin point but does away with silly mechanics like ghost heat and charge/linking.

Edited by Almeras, 31 July 2014 - 03:55 PM.

[1453 R]

Homeless Bill, on 29 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Bottom line: the weapon lock mechanic is awkward, and there's no way to make it not awkward. And the alternative of changing PPC speed will just make it synergize with higher-calibre autocannons better, so people will switch to that. Sure, it negates the range, but the problem is still ultimately 30+ pinpoint damage to a single location.

I'm begging you to consider something like this. A hurricane of bandaids has done half of what a serious effort to tackle front-loaded damage could do, and you'd have the added benefit of having another way to balance over/under-performing variants.

If you're going to go with weapon lock, at least combine it with that sort of scale so that all weapons can be balanced accordingly. One-off mechanics like what's being proposed are really awkward.

You could argue that it's complicated, but how is it any more so than the combination of this arbitrary mechanic, Ghost Heat, the Gauss charge, and all the other jumpjet and PPC adjustments it's taken to get even this close? Please go comprehensive and get this over with.

Seriously.

Rip it out. Rip it all out. All of it.

Sometimes all you need is a quick, half-assed fix to patch up a crack - but right now the entire game is little more than a crazed tower of half-assed fixes and low-hanging-fruit solutions stacked on top of each other over and over again until the whole thing is threatening to collapse under its own weight.

It's time to flush the pipes and implement Homeless Bill's energy draw, or something like it. Get rid of all the crazy, overly-specific quickpatch fixes that make this game so impossible for new players to learn and make all your vets hate you. Yes, it'd take a lot of work and effort. Ye know, though?

The longer you guys put this off, the harder it's going to be.

[Phellian]

Here is what I read from all the changes since beta.

There is a room. That room is crowded and its hard to find a seat. So PGI tries and change the furniture in the room. They bring in different chairs, sometimes melding chairs into a couch or bringing in a beanbag chair. Now they are making it so these two chairs have to be on opposite sides of the room. Still the room is crowded and uncomfortable. Meta players are still moving things around to make there experience better at the cost of others, while PGI diligently chases them around the room with new furniture or trying to take the furniture they are using away. All this while no one is looking in the middle of the room at the big PINK ELEPHANT taking up all the space.

Nearly every mod or Nerf for the past two years has been aimed at fixing the problem of having a Pink Elephant in the middle of a room. A room that we can't change as its the Game Engine.

The Pink Elephants name is: Pin Point Damage.

Fix Pin Point damage and all these band **** can go away (ghost heat, charge times, ect. ect.). Until then PGI is going to be running around chasing the Meta players with the Nerf bat.

[Livewyr]

Yokaiko, on 31 July 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Boy just what I said yesterday, cone of fire.

....but you didn't want to buff light mechs.

There is a huge difference between reticule sway and a cone of fire. (With Reticule sway, your weapons still go where your reticule is pointed without fail.)

But good try, that was cute.

[p4r4g0n]

If a mech carries 3 PPCs can I alpha all three? If I have 3 gauss bound to separate weapons groups, can I fire all 3 simultaneously by pressing all three fire buttons and releasing them at once?

If yes, this renders the proposed limitation unintuitive in a way very similar to some of the *anomalies* in the ghost heat mechanic. If no, you're going to be penalising certain energy heavy mechs by reducing their alpha damage.

Insofar as the second proposal is concerned, halving the PPC projectile speed seems to be a little extreme. Why is such a drastic reduction necessary?

Of the two, I would have to say I prefer the former over the latter SUBJECT to actual testing.

[Baltazar]

PPC is already slow.

Do variant charging GR and PPC

[Euphor Kell]

You know, I was just considering something of this the other day.
The problem with the lockout is that its invisible.
Why not add in a power level to a mechs engine?
Each engine size would only be able to provide so much power at a time.
Each weapon would draw so much energy at a time.
Engines would be able to exceed the power draw slightly (20-30 percent) at a higher heat generation penalty (this would replace ghost heat) after which weapons will not fire (or reload) which would be similar to the new mechanic.
You could put another indicator on the HUD, to show people the power draw vs max.

This would make balancing ghost heat much more transparent, and possibly easier since it would be one adjustment.

Oh, it would also help balance gauss + other weapons
One gauss would take you to 45% while charging, two would take you to 90%. So, while you could fire other small weapons (at a huge heat penalty because you exceeded the 75% capacity of your engine) you couldn't fire any large weapons (ie: AC/20, PPC, LLAS ETC) until those gauss discharge.

[GreyGriffin]

If an gas gauge is really the solution (I do not believe it is), it should not be tied to engine size. Low engined 'mechs are already punished heavily by being slow and cumbersome, especially at lower weight ranges.

[TheCaptainJZ]

If Gauss and PPCs are a problem...

Why not simply reduce the damage? We're not using table top stats for cooldown, why are we still using them for damage?

I'm thinking, maybe 75% what they are. Leave the other stats the same. Maybe lower PPC heat. Maybe change the cooldown.

Many people complain about the time to kill. Why not decrease weapon damage numbers? That automatically increases TTK.

This doesn't change the pinpoint problem, but really the only way to fix that is to make it so all weapons have some cone of fire or drift or convergence or whatnot. And it doesn't sound like PGI wants to do any of that or they would have already.

There is no need to add complicated mechanics to an already complicated game. Just make simple easy changes and see how those play out. "Keep it simple, stupid."

[GalaxyBluestar]

Daehoth, on 30 July 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

OH MY GAWD.....stop tinkering around with mechs already....they're fine the way they are, mech and weapons aren't really the pressing issue at this point. Nerf LRMs...now nerf Gauss/PPC combo...what's next? nerf small lasers, nerf mediums, nerf large lasers...nerf pulse lasers...nerf all the ballistic weapons....heck....nerf machine guns while you're at it....all in the bloody name of balancing....it's NEVER EVER GOING TO END.....

I say if a pilot has the damn skill to use both PPCs and Gauss together....good on him! If a pilot doesn't have the competency to just yet....practice a little longer and you'll get there buddy. Let pilots develop, learn and grow on their own PGI!!!

Stop pasting quick fix band aid-s all over the damn place!

All this time spent 'balancing' mechs have overshadowed one glaringly important thing. This game has not gone anywhere really in the last few years. PGI, just how long are you going to drag out balancing and not realizing the potential of this game? Or are you just content with 12 v 12 matches till the end of time? Because the player base, YOUR CUSTOMERS are not going to stand for it forever. We want the community warfare promised EONS ago. It feels like a millenia already since we last DARED dream of it.

The development and progress of this game is FAR too slow. In today's day and age, really?? Mechs and weapons are acceptable the way they currently are. Address the pressing issue and develop and expand on CONTENT (community warfare, because that's the real challenge and that's where the REAL player demand is). Stop wasting your time on trivial and quite frankly tolerable 'problems'. We are NEVER going to get to the finishing point or anywhere close to it if we keep lingering and tinkering at check point 2!!!!

Hear this once and for all.....players' patience is finite.....you are currently testing them to our limits....we love the lore and concept of Mechwarrior but we will not wait indefinitely for you to get your act together.....we have options out there and we won't support a ship that cannot get its direction or vision on track.... PERIOD.

repost for posterity

[N Y G E N]

Forget either suggestions. To complicated, makes the PPC useless at high ranges and will lead especially the single-player queue more an more into static gameplay, with lurms and erlasers.
Why not analyze on which mechs the 2PPC/1Gauss (+ another Gauss in case of Dire Wolf) is a "so called" problem? There are only a few of them, and why not handle it with negative quirks on this mechs?
And, in case of Dire Wolf, you designed the mechs, the hardpoints, the speed, etc. Is it really difficult to imagine what is gonna happen if you develop a mech with a these or those hardpoints?

And why not simple think about a hardpoint-/slotsystem like in Mechwarrior 4? Did you play it Mr. Inouye? There were also good Mechwarrior games before MWO, why not take the the best of them and merge it with MWO?