1258 replies to this topic

[Gumon Choji]

Could make the projectile speed slow when charging or charged.

[jeirhart]

THE PROBLEM - High pinpoint alpha damage utilized with little risk to the user but devastating to the player hit. Only good counter to this meta is the meta itself.

LRMs? Negated by ECM.
NARC to negate ECM? More ECM or stay in cover and fire between salvos.

Brawl? Take damage while advancing.
Advanced under cover (if possible)? PPCs and Gauss easier to aim at close range.

ERLL? Duration and hit reg.
Full burn on enemy mech? Fired at during the duration.

Gauss+PPC? Exchange fire.


Of the two proposed solutions, only the first seems to actually solve "the problem" while the second supports changing timing to where "the problem" is harder to achieve but still possible. So let us ignore the second solution and instead take a closer look at the first solution.

The change goes into the game. What happens?
-Players (in general), either unaware of the change or new the game wonder why their PPCs won't fire. Either through practice or research discover that their PPC and Gauss Rifles interact with each other and the ability to fire the PPC depends on the Gauss Rifle. A newer player and some of the veterans will decry this change as "stupid" or "pointless" especially those without knowledge of why this occurs the way it does.

-Without the high pinpoint damage alpha, the meta changes. Either the Gauss Rifle goes or the PPC goes. Based on the below (in general) I would imagine the AC/5 option would be better.

Possible replacements:
2xAC/5 and 2xPPCs
Retains longer distances, losses 5 points off the alpha, no charging, slightly more heat, faster rate of fire.

Gauss Rifle and 2xERLL
Retains long distances, must remain exposed for beam duration, requires charging.

-Is the problem then solved? No. Meta changes to the next best thing. So what solves the problem? Maybe Homeless Bill's link. Problem with that solution is that such a system as proposed there would not be out for some time, at least not until after Community Warfare anyway and would require another series of tweaks and alterations to work as intended.


So what do we do?

Nothing. Keep gameplay as it is now. Let the meta evolve through regular gameplay for a time instead of forcing changes to systems that require players to regularly adapt on a bi-weekly basis. Focus company development resources on Community Warfare development. I am aware that there are different departments and different teams within the company working on different projects but now would be a good time to redeploy those resources into making the launch of Community Warfare the most successful it can be starting August 19th, regardless of the state of the meta. Once Community Warfare is active, start analyzing how gameplay works in the 'finished' state of the game and adjust as necessary.

[Alexander Carlile]

What it seams the devs are trying to counter, is the player abuse of macros to get the edge over others in game. There are those that use macros to fire gauss with one shot, and there is also a macro that fires the gauss with enough delay that PPC and the Gauss projectile hit at almost the same time. The same exists for the UAC preventing them from jamming. So do not complain about this changes they are trying to level up the game that is being abused by cheaters.

My suggestion is not to reduce PPC speed, but to prevent the fire of gauss rifles after the PPC. The energy buildup for the PPC should drain the reactor energy increasing the time before you can redirect that energy for the massive needs of the Gauss Rifle.

[SolasTau]

Ok, so... the solution is to nerf PPC's to fix an issue with Gauss Rifles. Ah...huh.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alexander Carlile, on 02 August 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

What it seams the devs are trying to counter, is the player abuse of macros to get the edge over others in game. There are those that use macros to fire gauss with one shot, and there is also a macro that fires the gauss with enough delay that PPC and the Gauss projectile hit at almost the same time. The same exists for the UAC preventing them from jamming. So do not complain about this changes they are trying to level up the game that is being abused by cheaters.

My suggestion is not to reduce PPC speed, but to prevent the fire of gauss rifles after the PPC. The energy buildup for the PPC should drain the reactor energy increasing the time before you can redirect that energy for the massive needs of the Gauss Rifle.

I don't use macros to shoot PPCs and Gauss rifles together... and I know many who do not use macros for that. If you think you need macros to sync PPCs and Gauss rifles you are nuts. You play this game thinking that everyone doing that is using macros?

[John1352]

That's a pretty good point SolasTau, if you try to get a 40-45 damage alpha out of PPCs or ERPPCs you get a lot of heat, ghost heat or not, preventing other weapons being used. If you do the same with gauss, you're only stopped by the hardpoints and tonnage on IS mechs, and the "can't fire three at once" gimmick on clan mechs. Adding gauss rifle heat (7 seems reasonable) and/or linking with PPCs for ghost heat would basically fix the problem (ac5/PPC would be new solution though).

[Reno Blade]

Wintersdark, on 01 August 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Oh, for gods sake. The PPC works by space magic. It only needs to be internally consistent with the battletech universe, it doesn't need any grounding in modern day science whatsoever. I could sit here all day and invent perfectly reasonable explanations consistent with battletech science, but its a pointless waste of time.

The weapon stats are the weapon stats. They are what they are first and foremost for game balance. If you want to argue against a change, you need to be speaking Paul's language and giving game balance reasons why not to lower the speed.

I guarantee neither Paul nor most other players really care what any geek thinks about how a totally fictitious space magic sci fi weapon "actually" works.

/crabbyoldguy

And the unobtainium based magnificating array.

Most of the last 40 pages could be ignored and probably will because it's "noise" and not posted in an objective way or how you said "in Pauls language".

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

We did, hammering the speed down below that of an AC10 makes the PPC slower than an AC10, hotter, impossible to brawl with and poor to snipe with.....you just hammered EVERY other mech that can use it BECAUSE it MIGHT be used in conjunction with a gauss rifle which in my best british ......is pants on head retaded.

That is basically the first ten pages of this thread.

Well, having the speed of a AC10 or AC20 would move us back to the time we had when AC10 and 20 were faster.
BUT it does a lot more heat using an AC than a Gauss together with PPCs.
And for Clans, The ACs are burst or LBX.
Thus further spreading the damage either by burst and splash (AC and PPC) or by the de-sync (PPC/Gauss) of impacts.

The whole "you wont hit anything anymore" sounds flawed. We can hit stuff with PPC and AC5 now and we can hit stuff with AC10s and AC20s.
The 10s are not used often because they are "only" two tons lighter than 20, so you try to put a 20 in, if you want to brawl or take 2x5s for sniping.

I think the speed would not be much of a problem as you just need a handfull of games to get a hang of it.

jeirhart, on 01 August 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

THE PROBLEM - High pinpoint alpha damage utilized with little risk to the user but devastating to the player hit. Only good counter to this meta is the meta itself.

LRMs? Negated by ECM.
NARC to negate ECM? More ECM or stay in cover and fire between salvos.

Brawl? Take damage while advancing.
Advanced under cover (if possible)? PPCs and Gauss easier to aim at close range.

ERLL? Duration and hit reg.
Full burn on enemy mech? Fired at during the duration.

Gauss+PPC? Exchange fire.

...

Possible replacements:
2xAC/5 and 2xPPCs
Retains longer distances, losses 5 points off the alpha, no charging, slightly more heat, faster rate of fire.

Gauss Rifle and 2xERLL
Retains long distances, must remain exposed for beam duration, requires charging.

-Is the problem then solved? No. Meta changes to the next best thing. So what solves the problem? Maybe Homeless Bill's link. Problem with that solution is that such a system as proposed there would not be out for some time, at least not until after Community Warfare anyway and would require another series of tweaks and alterations to work as intended.

Gauss and ERLL has charge and beamtime balancing it out.
The whole beam damage can be spread by just twisting.
You can't spread a PPC/Gauss volley -> it just lands in one spot without the chance to avoid it.

For the IS, the 2PPC/2AC5 will stay strong forever, if there is no change to ACs (burst) or PPCs (splash or speed).

With the desync by PPC speed you will move the PPC/AC combo back to AC10 or 20s which is more short-midrange than AC5s.
With the charge mechanic you would spread out PPC Gauss, but leave the PPC/AC5 combo as the better option again (for IS).
Both of the suggested ideas are affecting Clans more than IS mechs because of their AC burst fire modes leaving Gauss as the primary FLD weapon together with the cERPPC.

[Vassago Rain]

I will sum up this entire thread, but especially the opening post, with a single picture.

[n r g]

So nerfing more ppc/guass weaponry lol?

do you understand how dominate lasers will be?

and what about ACs???

I see the death of this game coming sooner than I thought.

[SmartmuhahaXD]

OMG you really want to make this even more frustrating for new players and veterans.

I think it was about why the players that have a dire wolf uses the ppc gauss combo, easy to answer only sluggers available.

Gauss fix; get rid of the charge; min. range back and its generate heat like the IS PPC, start from there and dont make it so ++++++++ complicated.

Edited by SmartmuhahaXD, 02 August 2014 - 03:19 AM.

[Yarvoo]

It's probably been mentioned, but I am NOT in favour of slowing the PPC projectile speed for one reason.

It is currently the only answer to CERLLs.

As someone who hasn't bought any clan mechs, the IS has two answers to CERLLs, gauss rifles and ERPPCs.

Gauss is restrictive enough due to weight and ammo.

It's nice being able to take just one ERPPC to answer some of the insane range advantage that the clans have. I usually try to cram one onto every medium and up, unless I'm specializing in something else.

If the projectile speed change goes through, I curse everyone on PGI to no less than 20 games of alpine in an IS assault vs a clan team with every mech running at least 2 CERLLs. In a row.

Unanswerable damage on a terribly designed map where you cannot close range and end up getting picked apart while doing 0 damage is not exactly fun.

It will be quite hilarious when clans get a truly fast light mech that can run 1-2 CERLLs.

And you thought 2xERLL ecm ravens were annoying?

[xProteusx]

Personally I don't like the idea of slowing the PPC down. Don't nerf PPCs again. If I am running a mech with PPCs and no gauss the PPCs are more than likely the main weapon and its already a challenge to deal with the heat of just 2 PPCs. If you slow them down 50% it will make them hard to hit with. You wont be able to get those quick snap shots off at a mech that only exposes itself for a second. I say just make it to where you cant fire the gauss and PPC at the same time and be done with it. Of course it would be nice to test these options out on the test server.

[Dark Horse X]

The entire PPC/Gauss mechanic proposal is simple.......it is a further attempt by Paul/PGI to balance the IS and Clans. Instead of simply making it a 12 IS vs 10 Clan drop, they plan on castrating the Clans even further. So far, the Clans get "burst" fire AC's to strip them of equal Pinpoint potential of the IS, they get Laser/Pulse-Laser Durations that far exceed the IS - WHEN the Clans are supposed to be superior in technology (???), and now they want to strip the only combination the Clans have of dealing with the old IS Meta builds (PPC/AC). This is all about "balance", don't be fooled.

As to the money issue, it fits perfectly with what PGI does. If they don't throw a wrench in the system, IS mech sales would dwindle to a seriously pitiful state. "All of 'em or Nothing" sale ring a bell? You don't firesale an entire line of products UNLESS they simply aren't selling.

PGI isn't about the "fun", they are about the "money". The saddest part is if they were to make a completely viable game, with every thing they had promised, in a timely manner, with some element of lore standing true (IS Lances versus Clan Stars - 12v10), community warfare, etc.................then the influx of players and their money would pour into this game. Instead, Paul plays this entire community like an Impulse Display Stand At The Checkout Register: "Oooooh, shiny!".

They'll make these changes, regardless what any of us say or input. When the funds start drying up again, some new BS will be introduced.

Edited by Vlad Dragu, 02 August 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[Titus Ryan]

http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=3987

I like this, it is intuitive and adds more to the sim side of the game.

[Dark Horse X]

Titus Ryan, on 02 August 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=3987

I like this, it is intuitive and adds more to the sim side of the game.

Now this I could support completely. Well thought out and logical.

[Sandpit]

Titus Ryan, on 02 August 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=3987

I like this, it is intuitive and adds more to the sim side of the game.

it just seems like a complicated system. Wouldn't it be easier to slow down convergence just a tad? Done with it, solves all the issues, doesn't require reworking systems, and doesn't involve a complicated system that new players aren't going to easily understand

[Kibble]

After thinking about this. It might be a good system however just make it so you can't fire multiples of the same weapon or disallow the ability to shoot more than one "large" weapon at the same time.

That's not complicated at all.

Edited by Kibble, 02 August 2014 - 11:21 AM.

[Sandpit]

Kibble, on 02 August 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

After thinking about this. It might be a good system however just make it so you can't fire multiples of the same weapon or disallow the ability to shoot more than one "large" weapon at the same time.

That's not complicated at all.

instead of a hard limit though if you changed convergence so that it "jumps" just slightly if you fire multiple large weapons. Lasers aren't the issue and that would hurt lasers. If you fire
more than 1 AC20
2 AC10
2PPC
3 AC5
4 AC2

then your convergence gets knocked off target just slightly. Just enough to allow a savvy pilot to spread the damage from one central location to possibly 2. That's the simplest and easiest way I can think of to solve the issue. Requires no "ground up" coding, doesn't limit players from being able to boat and even alpha, but it does cost a little in the accuracy department.

[Ultimax]

1) I don't agree with any more nerfs to individual weapon systems, or using them together.
2) Find a solution for converge, I recognize that HSR issues means that this is difficult, but this has consistently been the primary root cause.
3) 750 projectile speed for PPCs is just laughable - This could possibly push PPCs into "awful" status.

Assuming the nerf goes through anyway...

3) 1s delay seems excessive. 0.25 or 0.5s should be more than sufficient to prevent convergence which is the actual issue not the damage.
4) As the Gauss charge up was implemented to de-synch it from PPCs, and nerfs to using these two systems together should remove the Gauss charge up nerf.

[Titus Ryan]

With all the problems they have had with HSR, trying to create convergence system seems unlikely, even though it would be great.