1263 replies to this topic

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

All this talk about convergence being the "solution" to the pin point damage "problem" makes me wonder ... has anyone, ever, gotten global (as in world-wide) server authenticated hit detection with a convergence mechanic "right" in a real-time multiplayer video game?

[Sandpit]

Tezcatli, on 04 August 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Technically you can still shoot them. You just can't shoot them all at once. Unless I interpreted the mechanic wrong ;o

so a stock mech can't alpha strike it's stock loadout

yet PGI can't understand why everyone has that "wtf are you thinking" response?
smh

[Ultimax]

Cimarb, on 04 August 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

ERLLs would make for a much better meta, since they provide the target the ability to spread damage. PPCs do not provide that. If PPCs spread damage, albeit in a different way, it would be much more balanced and you would be choosing the flavor of the weapon you prefer, not the one that is drastically more effective.

The ER LLAS should never be outright equal to the PPC.

The PPC is hotter, heavier and takes up more slots for both IS and Clan versions.

These aren't just "different flavors" of weapons, these are weapons with clearly different profiles, different heat per volley, different heat per damage ratios, different tonnage per damage ratios.


Personally I want to see many laser burn times shortened, especially pulse lasers - but having used a single PPC on builds I can tell you that any more nerfs to this weapon and it will basically be non-viable for those uses.

I'm sure a lot of people would be OK with that, maybe even yourself, in favor of their own desired weapons to come to the fore but I think that would be a poor direction to go.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 August 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[Tezcatli]

Sandpit, on 04 August 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

so a stock mech can't alpha strike it's stock loadout

yet PGI can't understand why everyone has that "wtf are you thinking" response?
smh

We already have that problem with the Awesome. It's not the first time they did something that screwed over a stock build in someway.

[Sandpit]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 04 August 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

All this talk about convergence being the "solution" to the pin point damage "problem" makes me wonder ... has anyone, ever, gotten global (as in world-wide) server authenticated hit detection with a convergence mechanic "right" in a real-time multiplayer video game?

it's nothing more than slowing down the reticle of a weapon. That's it. wherever it happens to be aimed is where the shot goes just like it does now. The reticle itself just moves slower for certain weapons

Tezcatli, on 04 August 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

We already have that problem with the Awesome. It's not the first time they did something that screwed over a stock build in someway.

I know, I'm just pointing it out
again

[ReXspec]

Cimarb, on 04 August 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

I agree with that, but since PGI has declared that convergence is a technology issue that cannot be fixed currently, it is off the table until that changes.

I would REALLY love to know how in the [scrap] they are limited in the Cryengine (of all engines) to providing some sort of realistic approach to pinpoint damage such as changing crosshair behavior when firing or moving.

Because, as far as I can see, if they made the crosshair and the way weapons converge similar to the way they behave in thirdperson, that would be a start.

How is P.G.I. incapable of making the Cryengine do something as simple as that?

I'm not trying to sound presumptuous, but these mechanics are already present in the game.

I would love a statement from P.G.I. explaining in detail why they can't do something like what I mentioned above.

[IraqiWalker]

Sandpit, on 04 August 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

so a stock mech can't alpha strike it's stock loadout

yet PGI can't understand why everyone has that "wtf are you thinking" response?
smh

Actually, that part I can be okay with, if by "can't alpha" you mean it overheats and shuts down.

Tezcatli, on 04 August 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

We already have that problem with the Awesome. It's not the first time they did something that screwed over a stock build in someway.

My problem is that it's literally impossible to alpha in that case. The option isn't there. Which I believe is what you're saying.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 04 August 2014 - 06:47 PM.

[Ultimax]

Sandpit, on 04 August 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

it's nothing more than slowing down the reticle of a weapon. That's it. wherever it happens to be aimed is where the shot goes just like it does now. The reticle itself just moves slower for certain weapons


I know, I'm just pointing it out
again

I refuse to believe they can't solve this.

I think they are unwilling to try.

Here, try this in game.

1) Turn off Arm Lock.
2) Have Torso mounted & arm mounted weapons.
3) Move while firing.


That's it, you already have your weapons spreading when you do this (different weapons hitting different points, and not perfect convergence)

Or East Indy's stagger fire concept - even just a 0.2 would be enough to remove convergence in many cases unless both target and shooter are standing perfectly still.


So my message to PGI is: If at first you don't succeed, try harder.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 August 2014 - 06:49 PM.

[Tezcatli]

Sandpit, on 04 August 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

it's nothing more than slowing down the reticle of a weapon. That's it. wherever it happens to be aimed is where the shot goes just like it does now. The reticle itself just moves slower for certain weapons

It might not be as simple as all that. They are after all kinda bad at coding things. They keep having to rebuild things just to make the game work.

Though the other day someone said they had convergence back in early closed beta and it caused severe lag. ;o

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 04 August 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

I refuse to believe they can't solve this.

I think they are unwilling to try.

Here, try this in game.

1) Turn off Arm Lock.
2) Have Torso mounted & arm mounted weapons.
3) Move while firing.


That's it, you already have your weapons spreading when you do this (different weapons hitting different points, and not perfect convergence)

Or East Indy's stagger fire concept - even just a 0.2 would be enough to remove convergence in many cases unless both target and shooter are standing perfectly still.


So my message to PGI is: If at first you don't succeed, try harder.

Try playing in 3PV. You'll see that there is reticle bob. If they can tweak that system and slap it into 1PV, things could get interesting. Though IS ballistics would get even more powerful.

Here's a demonstration

Spoiler

Koniving, on 23 July 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Last night, in addition to some Megamek fun, we tried some one on ones.

Dire Wolf versus Atlas.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Sandpit, on 04 August 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

it's nothing more than slowing down the reticle of a weapon. That's it. wherever it happens to be aimed is where the shot goes just like it does now. The reticle itself just moves slower for certain weapons

I guess I don't understand how that type of a convergence mechanic will solve the problem, then ... in the case of a 2xPPC, 2x Gauss Dire Wolf, for example, if all the weapons are mounted in the arms, how does that solve anything? If you're in any 'mech and have arm lock on, how does that solve the problem?

As I understood the recommended solutions, it was adding separation between the impact point for various weapons either based on:
- a "reticule bloom" / cone of fire solution (i.e.: if you're moving, jumping, etc. your accuracy decreases), or
- as you're aiming at different ranges it takes a bit of time for your weapons systems to compensate, and as you hold the reticule at a certain range, it takes a bit of time for the aimpoint to "converge".

While the cone of fire solution seems like it would be easy to implement, actual convergence seems like it would mean many more hit-registration calculations for each volley fired. (Edit: NM - this is BS.)

I'm not a programmer (at least not in 20 years), and I'm certainly not a developer ... I'm just trying to understand what is being proposed as the solution and the potential problems for those of us who have 200+ ping.

Edit: now, if you're just talking about slowing down arm movement rates and torso twist/pitch rates, as long as an assault can still (mostly) defend himself against a close range light, I'm OK with that.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 04 August 2014 - 07:42 PM.

[Sandpit]

Ultimatum X, on 04 August 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

I refuse to believe they can't solve this.

I think they are unwilling to try.

ding ding ding

Why?
Well as far as anyone can tell
Because Paul

Every single time he posts the entire community almost universally rolls their eyes. It's not a matter of "we can't please everybody" this is a matter of someone in PGI (in case it isn't Paul) needs to put their ego to the side and actually LISTEN. He's not "dad", he's a business man trying to sale his product to customers.

Guess what?
NONE of them like your ideas Paul. It's not that they don't want balance, they just don't like YOUR balancing options when there are LITERALLY dozens of other options that the community has given you. It's not like your choices are the only ones to be had. They're just the only ones YOU seem to like. Unfortunately your singular opinion, unless you plan on funding the game out of your pocket, doesn't amount to squat because the people spending money on your product don't like your ideas.

[ReXspec]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

Try playing in 3PV. You'll see that there is reticle bob. If they can tweak that system and slap it into 1PV, things could get interesting. Though IS ballistics would get even more powerful.

Here's a demonstration

Spoiler

IS Ballistics wouldn't be more powerful if they made auto-cannons work like they did in MW3.

Sure, the burst would be close, but you wouldn't have all the shots land in the exact same spot unless you were within exceptionally close ranges (like 0 - 320 meters).

Not to mention, if you introduced crosshair bob, increased convergence time, and reticule bloom, you would need to shorten beam times for both clan and IS lasers.

[IraqiWalker]

ReXspec, on 04 August 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

IS Ballistics wouldn't be more powerful if they made auto-cannons work like they did in MW3.

Sure, the burst would be close, but you wouldn't have all the shots land in the exact same spot unless you were within exceptionally close ranges (like 0 - 320 meters).

Not to mention, if you introduced crosshair bob, increased convergence time, and reticule bloom, you would need to shorten beam times for both clan and IS lasers.

That's if IS ballistics become burst-fire instead of the current PP FLD single shot weapon that they are.

[Sandpit]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

Try playing in 3PV. You'll see that there is reticle bob. If they can tweak that system and slap it into 1PV, things could get interesting. Though IS ballistics would get even more powerful.

Here's a demonstration

Spoiler

you're talking about sway

I'm talking about convergence. Adjusting a few lines of code to slow down how fast that reticle moves according to the weapon size. Completely different issue.

Maybe that's where the miscommunication is coming in?

I'm not talking abotu anythign other than simply slowing down how fast the reticle moves when moving your mouse to aim. That's it. I'm not talking about revamping the whole targeting system. Simply adjusting the speed of the reticle. That doesn't require any extensive rework of any of the code or mechanics.

The ONLY thing it MIGHT require is adding in a targeting reticle for multiple weapons. Give each ballistic and the PPC its own unique reticle. AC20 gets a red one
AC10 gets a blue one
AC5 gets a green one
Gauss yellow
PPC purple

done, all PPD problems solved. Simple, elegant, and actually attacks the issue. This isn't a complex solution at all

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 04 August 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

that's asinine. I refuse to believe that. They already have the mechanic in the game. I'm not a rocket scientist but I'm not a moron either. The reticles already move to converge. They have to. All the needs to be adjusted is the movement speed based on weapon. If PGI really thinks their player base (that's got decades of modding, coding, etc. experience themselves) is THAT stupid.... well ok then I guess....

It is not an issue where they cannot do it. It is an issue where doing it causes severe hit registration issues. I agree with you that it should be done/figured out, but just stating WHY they are not doing it currently.

Ultimatum X, on 04 August 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

The ER LLAS should never be outright equal to the PPC.

The PPC is hotter, heavier and takes up more slots for both IS and Clan versions.

These aren't just "different flavors" of weapons, these are weapons with clearly different profiles, different heat per volley, different heat per damage ratios, different tonnage per damage ratios.


Personally I want to see many laser burn times shortened, especially pulse lasers - but having used a single PPC on builds I can tell you that any more nerfs to this weapon and it will basically be non-viable for those uses.

I'm sure a lot of people would be OK with that, maybe even yourself, in favor of their own desired weapons to come to the fore but I think that would be a poor direction to go.

I never said they should be equal, even though they actually are quite identical in TT rules (where everything is random FLD).

I absolutely love how the Clan ERPPCs work, so I do not agree with you about the "non-viable" thing. They are very viable, which is actually the entire reason they are again on the chopping block in this thread.

[Coralld]

I like the first idea Paul put out there, very similar to an idea I had with how PPC and Gauss would interact.

However, I am completely against the second idea about cutting PPC speed to try and kill two birds with one stone to try and curve the effectiveness of both PPC+Gauss and PPC+ACs.
The first idea to deal with PPC+Gauss is good for dealing with that combo, as for the PPC+AC combo, simply change IS ACs into burst fire like they should have been from the start.
Russ has also stated that turning IS ACs into burst fire is "on their radar."

Edited by Coralld, 04 August 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[MrMadguy]

I guess, PGI is trying to turn their game into this. lol:

This game was terrible due to only one reason: too slow projectile speed, which were allowing you to hit something only from 1m distance. PGI, if you want to nerf poptarts - just nerf poptarts. As simple as that. For example totally deactivate weapons, while mech is in the air, due to recoil making mech unstable, while it's flying. Problem solved. Just because JJs are supposed to be used to overcome terrain obstacles - not to jump snipe.

[ReXspec]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

That's if IS ballistics become burst-fire instead of the current PP FLD single shot weapon that they are.

The PP FLD idea was stupid in the first place except for weapon systems that were specifically PP FLD in both Battletech canon, and virtually every iteration of the Mechwarrior game.

And now we see WHY PP FLD autocannons are a bad idea.

I can't believe P.G.I. thought that would be a good idea.

Edited by ReXspec, 04 August 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[Sandpit]

ReXspec, on 04 August 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

IS Ballistics wouldn't be more powerful if they made auto-cannons work like they did in MW3.

Sure, the burst would be close, but you wouldn't have all the shots land in the exact same spot unless you were within exceptionally close ranges (like 0 - 320 meters).

Not to mention, if you introduced crosshair bob, increased convergence time, and reticule bloom, you would need to shorten beam times for both clan and IS lasers.

there's already crosshair bob

with the implementation of clan ACs, IS ACs are in a good spot as FLD. It gives them an advantage over clans.

I like the beam durations where they're at now.

now sure what you mean by reticle bloom though?