1263 replies to this topic

[Lagster]

Just pair PPC and Gauss on the ghost heat table. Any more hidden systems/restrictions is just a bad idea.

Like so many have said, slowing down PPCs makes them useless at long range and will just bring back the PPC/AC20 combo.

To be honest, unless PGI has solid data that PPC/Gauss outperforms every other combo for the majority of players in all elo brackets, then it doesn't need tinkering. Personally my best games are in a clan laserboat timberwolf, consistently outperforms my PPC-toting mechs.

Edited by Lagster, 04 August 2014 - 12:04 AM.

[n r g]

My only concern is that you are attempting to slow down the PPC velocity to make it easier for brawling mechs to "close the gap" but in my opinion, it isn't that difficult as it stands.

Now, if you compare a brand new gamer or MechWarrior novice, yes, they are going to get demolished by a team of "snipers" if they attempt to "brawl". Sadly, this is the 90% of the community you are basing your opinions off of.

A skilled player will be able to close the gap effectively in this game regardless, and while you guys blindly affect ppc/guass, you do NOT even realize the monster you are creating(ed)/unleashing soon with large lasers, specifically clan large lasers.

There are so many variables when it comes to FPS games or any game for that matter, and skill is a big factor. Currently, they are only ~3 competition teams in MechWarrior Online that contain players that are even knowledgeable in FPS games. You can't just listen to the complaints of a majority of casual players, especially while most complaints are completely due to inexperience.

Actually, you can. It's fine. But in the process, you will kill the game for any potential competition and essentially follow in the footsteps of IW and Call of Duty and EA with Battlefield. If that's what you want, so be it. I'm sure you guys are happy as long as you make some big sales and catch as much $$$ as you can from these casuals that just want to run in their dire wolf and ram into a mech to fire lbx at 100m.

[Cpt Zaepp]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 29 July 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors!

Please let us know which of Paul's ideas to balance PPC+Gauss you would prefer to see in-game!

1. On "slowing down the PPC projectile"

Horrible idea.

As stated various times before, don't nerf a single Weapon-System into Oblivion just because of one particular Load-out on one particular Mech.

- You will hurt a lot of very interesting, challenging and balanced builds, especially on medium/small platforms.
- You will sync PPCs with AC10/20 again (you nerfed them to de-sync them from PPCs, remember?)

2. On "The Mechanic"

Better.

But a restriction to 1x Gauss + 1x PPC at a time is a bit harsh in my opinion.
At least, make it 1x Guass + 2x PPC (2x Guass + 1x PPC).

3. Alternate suggestion: "Use the Quirks-System"

Use the new Quirks-System already and add a harsh Accuracy/heat penalty on all pin-point-front-loaded damage above 35 points on certain chassis. In this way a Direwolf equipped with 3x cERPPC + 2x cGauss would effectively use a VERY strong shotgun when firing all weapons at once.


EDIT:

Just FYI, as long as pilots keep ending up on Alpine in a SRM-Brawler, you can come up with whatever fancy new mechanics you want, the game won't become more "Brawler-friendy".

Edited by zaepp, 04 August 2014 - 02:41 AM.

[Jungle Rhino]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 29 July 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors!

Please let us know which of Paul's ideas to balance PPC+Gauss you would prefer to see in-game!

*facepalm*

OR you could just add in some spread to weapons fired on the move which is how every other 'game with aiming' works.

When you halt to fire you trade speed for accuracy.
Speed = defense
Accuracy = offense
It is a trade off. Anything else is a nonsensical, convoluted bandaid on a bandaid on a bandaid

Also get rid of ghost heat at the same time

Making an intelligent decision as to whether to sacrifice defense for offense and having a dynamic targetting reticle does not equate to 'loss of skill'.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

I think devs need a huge DISLIKE button under every single of their threads.


Another supidest idea ever. Why don't you... PGI lads... just go and nerf only clan weapons not affecting IS gauss rifle and ppc's.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 04 August 2014 - 04:00 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

nerf Focus teamfire..only 1 Mech of a Team can firing ! by all other Teammechs the weaponsystem dectivated ...nerf 12 ML Novas, 6 MG Dires...The best= HAWKEN One Primary and a secondary Weapon

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 04 August 2014 - 05:13 AM.

[Fire and Salt]

Funny, I was actually thinking that the PPC projectile speed needs a BUFF...

I guess if we get a lockdown that limits PPC + gauss to 2 at the same time, then maybe the PPC projectile speed could be set to 2000 again. This would also be good because it would desync it further from the AC5.

A slow moving long range weapon is a worthless long range weapon.

[Cimarb]

wanderer, on 03 August 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

PPCs to streaming and arcing damage, ALL standard/Ultra AC's to burst fire (with IS having shorter bursts), and the Gauss can stay as they are- fragile/explosive, charge mechanism, long recharge, heavy and without other weapons to produce Death Star-like alpha blasts that can now obliterate anything under 45 tons in a single shot. They can be the sniper weapon of the game without becoming the obliteration weapon of choice- and if you REALLY want to be nasty, go ahead and put in the 60m min range from TT as damage reduction ala Clan LRMs for Gauss rifles.

This.

I see a ton of really off-the-wall solutions being suggested. The answer is very simple, and requires nothing beyond what is already in the game. Fix all PPCs so they do splash damage, with IS versions doing slightly more FLD than Clans to balance, and make all ACs burst, but also with IS balanced on the FLD side. Gauss already has a ton of balancing systems on it, and is not the problem.

For example:
IS PPC: 8/1/1
IS ERPPC: 7/1.5/1.5
Clan ERPPC: 7/4/4

IS AC20: 5x4
IS AC10: 3x3.33
IS AC5: 3x1.67
IS AC2: 2x1
Clan AC20: 10x2
Clan AC10: 5x2
Clan AC5: 5x1
Clan AC2: 2x1

[Wintersdark]

Cimarb, on 04 August 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

This.

I see a ton of really off-the-wall solutions being suggested. The answer is very simple, and requires nothing beyond what is already in the game. Fix all PPCs so they do splash damage, with IS versions doing slightly more FLD than Clans to balance, and make all ACs burst, but also with IS balanced on the FLD side. Gauss already has a ton of balancing systems on it, and is not the problem.

For example:
IS PPC: 8/1/1
IS ERPPC: 7/1.5/1.5
Clan ERPPC: 7/4/4

IS AC20: 5x4
IS AC10: 3x3.33
IS AC5: 3x1.67
IS AC2: 2x1
Clan AC20: 10x2
Clan AC10: 5x2
Clan AC5: 5x1
Clan AC2: 2x1

Doing this though would run a very real danger of making Clans OP or, if you're in the camp of Clan's already being OP - make them moreso.

The inferiority of Clan Autocannon and PPC tech is a major balance point. Clan ERPPC's lack 10 heat options, do the same pinpoint damage. Autocannons spread damage barring lack of defensive piloting+skill and increase required face time.

If you did that with IS too, even to a lesser degree... I'd be seriously concerned about balance.

[Cimarb]

Wintersdark, on 04 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Doing this though would run a very real danger of making Clans OP or, if you're in the camp of Clan's already being OP - make them moreso.

The inferiority of Clan Autocannon and PPC tech is a major balance point. Clan ERPPC's lack 10 heat options, do the same pinpoint damage. Autocannons spread damage barring lack of defensive piloting+skill and increase required face time.

If you did that with IS too, even to a lesser degree... I'd be seriously concerned about balance.

Numbers can always be adjusted as needed, but the mechanics should be the same. All ACs should have been burst to begin with, and I love love love the Clan ACs just because of that, regardless of whether they are perfectly balanced or not.

Piloting an IS mech now, to be honest, feels horrible in comparison to a Clan mech, and it has nothing to do with the balance (which is pretty spot on for PGI). It has everything to do with feeling like I am running around shooting actual military autocannons, instead of a Civil War cannon... Make that even more the case by speeding up the Clan autocannons to the numbers above, and I will finally have the Gatling Gun I have always thought they should be, while IS will have the slower autocannons the Clans currently have.

You could also help balance by making the IS versions shoot a tighter burst, as well.

[Verkhne]

The Meta has already changed...and it's worse....

[Gorgo7]

Very Clever PGI!
This is nothing but a distraction from the real issues. COMMUNTY WARFARE.

Nothing needs to be changed.
This whole argument is moot and appalling.
Weaken a 7 ton weapon that generates as much heat as it does damage? spread the damage? why? I don't have any trouble with this so called Meta. Do you?
I almost never come across it.
If I do, well, good for the pilot that uses it! I can use it as well! But I don't and frankly the argument that the competitive crowd wants a change is bull. The system is excellent the way it is.
PPC's have a nerf in heat penalties, Gauss in heat penalties AND a trigger mechanism.
NO CHANGES. NO ENGINEERING FOR THE SAKE OF ENGINEERING! All i read in this post is people wanting to change things because they think it is fun to mess around with mechanics!
This Whole game is based on mech design! Don't take away my choice. I would rather you change hard points than mess with the mechanic.
I think this is just an exercise in weapons engineering for the sake of engineering.
Drop the subject, change nothing!
Community Warfare! This is nothing but a distraction from the real issues.

[Sandpit]

This is nothing more than attempting to balance based on a single build. The problem with that is it nerfs all other builds that use that weapon. Instead of nerfing weapons solve the actual issue. How many times have weapons been nerfed only to hear a month later that the same old meta is back?

That's because PGI refuses to acknowledge they made a booboo and actually fix the issue.

[Sandpit]

slowing down convergence fixes every single one of these problems

If you're firing off 2 Gauss and a PPC or 2 PPC and a gauss

As fast paced as a firefight is, it's nearly impossible to wait .5 seconds for your reticle to perfectly converge and fire all weapons on the same spot. Since lasers are DOT and not FLD, keep them as the pinpoint accuracy weapon.

If the target is dumb enough to stand still
in the open
for 2 seconds
without moving at all

then tough, L2P

If the attacker wants to risk taking shots, dealing with cockpit shake, exposing themselves to return fire, etc. to wait for that convergence to take the shot instead of having their damage spread slightly, then tough, take your chances.

AC20 = .5 seconds to converge
AC10 = .4
AC5 = .2
AC2 - 0
PPC/ER PPC = .3

With all those weapons set at different convergence speeds it doesn't completely remove the ability to put all that damage in one spot but it does severely mitigate it.

Poptarting gets relegated to the truly skillful (because if you can still poptart effectively after this fix, you really are a hero of the Btech world and are showing a true skill)

Coming around a corner into an AC40 doesn't mean insta death every time for anything under 75 tons or so but it still hurts
a lot

Lasers become more viable again because of their pinpoint accuracy

It's really that simple. There's no need to implement complicated systems. Convergence is already coded into the system, it just requires a few adjustments to the weapons I mentioned above. It prevents all weapons from instantly converging, unless you're in a laser boat, but the DOT mechanic for lasers is what has always balanced that issue with lasers.

I've never understood why more people don't get this. It's a simple system, easy to understand, separates weapon convergence based on size, doesn't require all this "Charge this, shoot that, chain this, macro that" crap. It doesn't require removing anything form the game. It allows a truly skillful player to show that skill off.

It slows down the entire game slightly because you have to think a little more instead of just popping out for .02 seconds to take a shot and then drop back behind cover.

[n r g]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 04 August 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

I think devs need a huge DISLIKE button under every single of their threads.


Another supidest idea ever. Why don't you... PGI lads... just go and nerf only clan weapons not affecting IS gauss rifle and ppc's.

Yeah... you're right on target, isn't it funny?

I paid 200$~ for the clan package AND play for CLAN smoke jaguar, BUT I will even admit to the huge advantages clan technology have over IS mechs. From the speed/mobility, to the super defensive XL engines, and to the superiority of ERLL.....

All you're going to see by nerfing PPC/Guass, which was some of the strong points of IS mechs, is an uproar soon about the overuse-OP'ness of ERLL clan...

You'll see.

zaepp, on 04 August 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

1. On "slowing down the PPC projectile"

Horrible idea.

As stated various times before, don't nerf a single Weapon-System into Oblivion just because of one particular Load-out on one particular Mech.

- You will hurt a lot of very interesting, challenging and balanced builds, especially on medium/small platforms.
- You will sync PPCs with AC10/20 again (you nerfed them to de-sync them from PPCs, remember?)

2. On "The Mechanic"

Better.

But a restriction to 1x Gauss + 1x PPC at a time is a bit harsh in my opinion.
At least, make it 1x Guass + 2x PPC (2x Guass + 1x PPC).

3. Alternate suggestion: "Use the Quirks-System"

Use the new Quirks-System already and add a harsh Accuracy/heat penalty on all pin-point-front-loaded damage above 35 points on certain chassis. In this way a Direwolf equipped with 3x cERPPC + 2x cGauss would effectively use a VERY strong shotgun when firing all weapons at once.


EDIT:

Just FYI, as long as pilots keep ending up on Alpine in a SRM-Brawler, you can come up with whatever fancy new mechanics you want, the game won't become more "Brawler-friendy".

They've been doing that from the beginning... Instead of "buffing" other supposed, "weaker" weaponry, and creating a highly skilled, versatile and complex gaming environment, they have been simply NERFING everything that the "mainstream" gamer base of mechwarrior online complains about...

Thus creating this, diluted, stale, gameplay, which is essentially going to be 200m brawls by players who just purchased their first PC, MWO is their first PC game, and they don't even know how to set up a mouse & keyboard.

Obviously PGI doesn't care, they will cater to the "mainstream" just so they can get a paycheck, just like IW did to Call of Duty or EA did to Battlefield - 2 franchises that were actually played competitively and had huge promise but were destroyed/ravished into casual pub games, point-and-click gimmicky shooters, where the main focus now isn't on gameplay nor competition, rather gimmicky sales on "skin packages" or "battlebacks" or to pressure you to buy the re-skinned "map expansions".....

Edited by E N E R G Y, 04 August 2014 - 03:30 PM.

[Damien Tokala]

leave projectile speed as it is, increase spread damage, PPC can only fire one at a time, and the next won't be able to fire until the first is 50% cooled down. ERPPC will stay untouched in range and speed as well, however it will only allow 2 to be mounted. firing both at once will result in extreme heatspike.

[n r g]

Verkhne, on 04 August 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

The Meta has already changed...and it's worse....

I hope you're referring to lasers

And it WILL BE the meta - there's no doubt. It actually happened before in MechWarrior 4 as-well. PPC/Gauss was dominant, but then people started realizing the potential of hitscan technology (which is actually unbeatable compared to projectile based weaponry unless balanced properly).

But, it's not balanced. Clan mechs by design, independent of weaponry, are better than IS Mechs. They are faster, more agile/mobile, and have the potential for more heatsinks thus allowing to carry more energy weapons and be more heat efficient (seriously, try carrying 2 ERPPC on an IS mech and making it heat efficient, you will see how difficult it is, but then try it on a Timberwolf)

All you're going to see are blue lasers at 900m+ on every map when players spawn soon lol, just ask CSJ, we helped pioneer it.

[Spike Brave]

I'm sorry if this as already been suggested but I don't have the time to go through 44 pages. I'm okay with the it draws too much power to shoot all these things at once. That is actually is some of the novels. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LEAVE THE PPC SPEED ALONE! It's suppose to be lightning. It's way too slow now. If you want to change something INCREASE GAUSS SPEED. A gauss slug travels over mach 3. If you want to get some time between them crank up the gauss speed. The ppc is a long range gun, in fact it doesn't even do damage inside 90 meters. If you make it slower mech will be able to dodge it at range and then when they get close it doesn't work. Slowing the the ppc speed is just silly.

edit for grammar

Edited by Spike Brave, 04 August 2014 - 03:38 PM.

[n r g]

Fire and Salt, on 04 August 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Funny, I was actually thinking that the PPC projectile speed needs a BUFF...

I guess if we get a lockdown that limits PPC + gauss to 2 at the same time, then maybe the PPC projectile speed could be set to 2000 again. This would also be good because it would desync it further from the AC5.

A slow moving long range weapon is a worthless long range weapon.

They want to kill long range fighting. Newer players never could, or never have been able to fight at long range. It takes skill and practice to hit objects at long range (i.e. 800m).

However, a new player can much more easily jump into MWO and run into a mech ramming him at 100m with strks and srms or medium lasers.

Just imagine if, in CS:GO, players complained about the AWP "one-shotting" them from long range. Then the DEVs nerfed the AWP to a shorter range weapon. Then the AWPers began complaining about the AK47 ability to one-shot headshot them at mid to long range. So then the DEVs nerfed the AK47's range and one shot abilities.

Now you would have a diluted game, lowered skill cap, and "brawlish FPS" game, where fire and gameplay can only occur from short range, eliminating complex long range engagements.

LADIES & GENTLEMEN, THIS, is what MechWarrior Online is being reduced to. Well, I'm sure the few remaining competition gamers will be far gone at that point, with only the nutty battle tech purists who want a 100m firing line remaining.

[McQueen]

I am going to put my vote in for the restriction on simultaneous fire. The projectile speed nerf would hurt all PPC users not just the ones using the gauss + PPC combo.