1263 replies to this topic

[Ruccus]

IraqiWalker, on 06 October 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Charge should never be removed. It is literally the best fix ever implemented by PGI.

Gauss is supposed to be a sniper weapon, when Gauss charge is removed, it will be an OP weapon again. Do you remember back when Gauss used to be pretty much the brawl weapon of choice, and pretty much any mech that could fit it, did? A sniping weapon should have draw backs at short range. Without charge, it literally has no drawbacks. No, exploding doesn't count, since your opponent has to go through your armor to get to it first. While they are doing that, you have a 15 point instant shot 1 heat weapon hammering at them.

Gauss was too powerful without charge, it's at least balanced now.

While the charge is mildly annoying, the reason I dumped my Gauss after the change wasn't because of the charge, it was because adding the charge without decreasing the cooldown decreased the Gauss' DPS significantly. It's a 15 ton (12 ton for clans) weapon that does 3.16 dps, which isn't enough for a medium mech like my Blackjack. A pair of AC2s (or C-UAC2s) have the same projectile velocity, longer range, less tonnage (12 IC, 10 clan) and do over 5.5 dps.

Keep the charge and drop the cooldown to 3.25 seconds and I'd be happy (this is coming from someone who usually only mounts one Gauss, though I do have a Jagermech that can mount two).

I don't know if this is possible (or if the idea has been suggested already), but how about making multiple Gauss mechs charge their Gauss Rifles consecutively rather than concurrent? A single Gauss would have a 0.75 second charge and a 3.25 second cooldown (15 point alpha, 3.75dps); a dual Gauss setup would have a 1.5 second charge with a 3.25 second cooldown (30 point alpha, 6.32dps), and (if we want to go back to firing more than two Gauss at a time) a triple Gauss setup would have a 2.25 second charge and 3.25 second cooldown (45 point alpha, 8.18dps).

[Cimarb]

Ruccus, on 07 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

While the charge is mildly annoying, the reason I dumped my Gauss after the change wasn't because of the charge, it was because adding the charge without decreasing the cooldown decreased the Gauss' DPS significantly. It's a 15 ton (12 ton for clans) weapon that does 3.16 dps, which isn't enough for a medium mech like my Blackjack. A pair of AC2s (or C-UAC2s) have the same projectile velocity, longer range, less tonnage (12 IC, 10 clan) and do over 5.5 dps.

Keep the charge and drop the cooldown to 3.25 seconds and I'd be happy (this is coming from someone who usually only mounts one Gauss, though I do have a Jagermech that can mount two).

I don't know if this is possible (or if the idea has been suggested already), but how about making multiple Gauss mechs charge their Gauss Rifles consecutively rather than concurrent? A single Gauss would have a 0.75 second charge and a 3.25 second cooldown (15 point alpha, 3.75dps); a dual Gauss setup would have a 1.5 second charge with a 3.25 second cooldown (30 point alpha, 6.32dps), and (if we want to go back to firing more than two Gauss at a time) a triple Gauss setup would have a 2.25 second charge and 3.25 second cooldown (45 point alpha, 8.18dps).

No thank you.

Also, their is a much bigger difference between a Gauss and 2xAC2s. The Gauss is 15 points of pinpoint, front-loaded damage, while the AC2 is only 4 points. That is a HUGE difference. PPFLD >>>>> DPS

[JP456]

Crazy Wolfgang, on 01 October 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

I hate this PPC projectile slowdown. I don't use gauss rifles and feel like I'm being punished for what others are doing.

Couldn't agree more, although I do use Gauss rifles as well (never a PPC/Gauss combination, though). Classic PPC builts like the Awesome have been seriously weakened as a side-effect of the attempt to weaken PPC/Gauss combinations. But if you ask me, what makes the 2xERPPC/2xGauss Direwolfs so strong is not the dual PPC, it's the dual Gauss. Instant death for lights, very dangerous for mediums, heavies and assaults. And it doesn't even have the minimum distance/heat issues of the PPC.

The issue at hand was the dual Gauss and they killed the PPC instead. Please give the PPC part of its original projectile speed back. A big part.

[Reno Blade]

PPC/Gauss combos greatest strength is their very close cooldown, (was) their close travel speed, combined low heat together with bringing all damage (plus Clan ERPPC splash) to one spot.

I play builds with Gauss/PPC too (dire, even MadDog) and the best targets to shoot your combo are the ones poking from a corner or otherwise not moving laterally fast.

If you need to shoot them seperately, because of different lead times for faster mechs, then the de-sync is working exactly how it should.
It reduces the number of cases where this combo is the best in combat, where it was like 90% of the time before the "nerf".

Now compare the PPC/Gauss Dire to the 6cUAC5 Dire and see the difference?
The uAC5 spreads damage, but has faster speed than PPCs (and slower than Gauss) giving it more chances to hit faster mechs, but at the same time giving faster mechs enough chances to dodge (at least a few bullets) a burst.
In both cases, moving straight at/away from the shooter will lead to certain death (even with burst UACs, splash ERPPC AND the slower ERPPC speed) !

[Mechsniper]

LRM boats and lights cry about gauss and PPC'sway too much. Snipers should have a place in this game too. NO DERPS AC/s ARE NOT SNIPER WEAPONS! (just to cut off that bs line of thought) Anything that requires DPS to work is by definition NOT a sniper build at all. As an honest sniping player, let me offer some perspective. Chargeup makes lights immune to gauss as they litteraly can pop out of cover,ERLL you and return before you can even shoot back with Gauss. This is balance fail! Same with PPC's. Light pops out, you shoot, he has all day to simply sidestep. A PARTICLE CANNON!! MAJOR FAIL!!! Now, so as not to seem aloof to pinpoint damage disparity here is the fix: Make it so only one gauss or ppc can fire within .25 sec due to power drain on the mech. 2ERPPC's + 2 Gauss. You can only fire one of each at a time, preventing instant light mech death. Keep a small speed disparity,but not the ridiculously slow softball speed of the current PPC, which is a joke. BTW, the gauss is intended to be more than a sniper weapon!!! This is why the victor and Highlander mount them in the arm!!!! You have currently gimped the intended builds of these mechs so lrm boats and lights are easy cheese for noobs. Please fix it!!! I have given you the solution!!!! Mechs standing still have no right to gripe if they suffer a 25 point hit from 1 gauss + 1 ERPPC at a time!!!! That's the point of fair sniping in MW!! GLHF!

Edited by Mechsniper, 08 October 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[Gorgo7]

Mechsniper, on 08 October 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

LRM boats and lights cry about gauss and PPC'sway too much.

Really? I often run LRM boats and have never cried...nor have I ever read a post saying that
"as a LRM boater Guass/PPC are way over powered"
Where did you come up with that one? Or are you one of those guys who cry that the no skill LRM boats are WAY OP'd!

[Fire and Salt]

Gauss DPS isn't too terrible when you consider that it generates 0 heat and has good range.



Heres some DPS examples per smurfy:

Any Dual Gauss mech (IS or clan): 6.32 sustained DPS.

2 CERPPC, 33 heatsinks: 5.18 DPS
(Stupid dire wolf build to prove a point - note that a 3rd ppc wont fit because of heat sinks taking all the crits, but even if the ppc was a 1 slot weapon and you put 4 on in place of the 2, the sustained DPS would not increase because it is heat limited and not weapon DPS limited, even with only 2 PPCs)


2 ERPPCs + gauss rifle warhawk: 5.76 DPS less DPS than a dual gauss mech:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9d6d2dc603234a9


The gauss rifle is actually not too bad for DPS as far as sniper weapons go... however, the PPC by comparison allows you to enter the battle cold, and then covert your heat capacity into front loaded damage. (this is true of energy weapons in general)
Who cares if your mech is now hot, as long as the enemy is dead.



In reality, front loaded damage matters, as well as sustained DPS.






Anyways, the Gauss rifle implementation is great.
-It pops easily, which incentivizes you to not brawl with it as a first choice.
-The charge mechanic makes it more difficult to snapshot a good light pilot at close range... The gauss has a min range in TT, which is clearly meant to reflect aiming difficulty - the projectile can't plausibly do 0 damage at point blank - its not a missile that needs to arm, its a solid piece of metal weighing 1/10th of a ton that is moving at 7200kph (using MWO numbers)
-The charge mechaninc is really fun, balance aside.
-The projectile moves fast enough to snipe with.





The PPC however is in a somewhat sad state, though not as terrible as some say. In most cases I would prefer an LPL over a PPC for the same weight.

Problem with the PPC is that is actually has awful DPS because the heat is so high. Add the fact that the slow projectile causes missed shots...

The heat needs to be lowered to account for the lower projectile speed, so its ACTUAL dps, including missed shots, can be where it was when it was moving at 1300m/s. Then it would be a DESYNC from the gauss, rather than a straight up PPC nerf.

[Fire and Salt]

Mechsniper, on 08 October 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Chargeup makes lights immune to gauss as they litteraly can pop out of cover,ERLL you and return before you can even shoot back with Gauss. This is balance fail!

Actually, no.

Yes, the chargeup makes it more difficult, but it doesn't grant the light 'mech invincibility.

There is no rule that says that you can only begin charging the gauss once you see the mech. Once he pulls this trick once or twice, just start randomly charging the gauss.

If you charge it, let it discharge because of no shot, and then immediately begin charging it again, you can actually maintain a Gauss charge somewhere around 50% of the time. This means that there is a 50% chance that you will be able to pop the light mech on a given instance where he pops out assuming you are both behaving randomly.



As someone who pilots plenty of light mechs, I can tell you that getting hit with gauss rifles sucks. The fact that you can often reduce their chance of having a charged shot ready to around 50% with good piloting is what keeps them in check. So you may get hit half as much as you would if there were no charge mechanic, but when you do, its a ton of damage all to the same panel, which is significant for a light 'mech.

Yes, you can always hit a light with a laser, but its not going to all hit the same panel.

That is not balance fail. That is balance.

Edited by Fire and Salt, 08 October 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Mechsniper, on 08 October 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

LRM boats and lights cry about gauss and PPC'sway too much.

I'm gonna say that's from the make-up-a-fact department. As a dedicated light mech pilot I've never complained about Gauss and PPCs (I complained about the 6PPC stalkers a couple of times)

Mechsniper, on 08 October 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Snipers should have a place in this game too. NO DERPS AC/s ARE NOT SNIPER WEAPONS! (just to cut off that bs line of thought) Anything that requires DPS to work is by definition NOT a sniper build at all. As an honest sniping player, let me offer some perspective. Chargeup makes lights immune to gauss as they litteraly can pop out of cover,ERLL you and return before you can even shoot back with Gauss. This is balance fail! Same with PPC's. Light pops out, you shoot, he has all day to simply sidestep. A PARTICLE CANNON!! MAJOR FAIL!!! Now, so as not to seem aloof to pinpoint damage disparity here is the fix: Make it so only one gauss or ppc can fire within .25 sec due to power drain on the mech. 2ERPPC's + 2 Gauss. You can only fire one of each at a time, preventing instant light mech death. Keep a small speed disparity,but not the ridiculously slow softball speed of the current PPC, which is a joke. BTW, the gauss is intended to be more than a sniper weapon!!! This is why the victor and Highlander mount them in the arm!!!! You have currently gimped the intended builds of these mechs so lrm boats and lights are easy cheese for noobs. Please fix it!!! I have given you the solution!!!! Mechs standing still have no right to gripe if they suffer a 25 point hit from 1 gauss + 1 ERPPC at a time!!!! That's the point of fair sniping in MW!! GLHF!

I'm guessing you don't really snipe, or you don't aim that well. Sniping is not only a part of this game, it's the most dominant part as it stands. I have no problem landing Gauss shots on mechs, regardless of size. As an LRM boat (I have a BLR-1S kitted out as an LRM boat), I never had a problem with Gauss or PPCs, since they never see me, to hit me.

Only ones that complained about Gauss and PPCs were the frontline mechs, and the brawlers.

[Mechsniper]

Since I actually shoot at real targets with real rifles and have several silhouettes of movers on the wall shot out to 800 m with a 7.62 I think I would know if I know how to aim or not. Point and click/lead a little is much easier than opposing wind and mover leads. Plus 30 years of playing MechWarrior on computers... hmm, yeah maybe I can. Randomly charging a gauss rifle hoping I time it right..... Where is exactly the skill in that.... advantage light mech, unless he is unlucky... right. Oh, and the reason I pick on lrmboats is they are usually the ones scoffing at pinpoint damage after standing out of cover and getting picked off. The gauss as a brawler weapon is quite documented, ...Until PGI adds the bs charge up. Now historically popular mechs like the victor and highlander are gimped(for the gauss versions).

[Cimarb]

Mechsniper, on 09 October 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Randomly charging a gauss rifle hoping I time it right..... Where is exactly the skill in that.... advantage light mech, unless he is unlucky... right. Oh, and the reason I pick on lrmboats is they are usually the ones scoffing at pinpoint damage after standing out of cover and getting picked off. The gauss as a brawler weapon is quite documented, ...Until PGI adds the bs charge up. Now historically popular mechs like the victor and highlander are gimped(for the gauss versions).

The charge is not random at all. The skill is involved in timing. You know, the same timing that is involved in firing your rifle during that moment where your body is in between breaths? Surely as such an accomplished riflemen you would know about that...

The Gauss is still quite good at brawling, but not AS good because you do have the timing mechanic involved. The skill level of it went up considerably, but the satisfaction level of using it successfully also skyrocketed.

There is a reason the top comp teams use Gauss builds. It is not due to a lack of skill.

[IraqiWalker]

Mechsniper, on 09 October 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Randomly charging a gauss rifle hoping I time it right..... Where is exactly the skill in that

Timing is a real element of skill. If you have fired real guns (Which you seem to have done), then you absolutely know about leading moving targets, and timing your shots.

As for LRM boats. If they are out of cover and get shot, then they were going to get killed by every other weapon in the game. Flamers included. Don't lump all LRM players in the same boat. (Pun not intended )

As for Gauss, I personally think that the charge mechanic is not only flavorful, (simulates the minimum range it had in TT) but also solidifies it as a sniper weapon (I love the fact that if I don't have a clear shot, I don't waste/lose ammo). It can still be used in a brawl, but requires significant skill, and risk. If you want Gauss to lose the charge, and become a brawling weapon, then it should have a range that does not exceed 600 meters max (meaning 200 Meters effective range). Then everyone that has been crying about the charge mechanic can have their easy button back.

[Mechsniper]

Timing??? FIrst you have NO idea if the light is even coming back out at that spot. Second, I can stand behind a building for 2 min. in a light holding your assault hostage as you uselessly, randomly charge your gauss awaiting me to hit you with 2 ERLL in my ECM light. Light pilots who derp out 3 or 4 times in tempo get smashed, but It is useless against lights driven by a pilot with much time in the game, but as you are an admitted DEDICATED light pilot, you like that. My point is proven valid.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Mechsniper, on 09 October 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

Timing??? FIrst you have NO idea if the light is even coming back out at that spot. Second, I can stand behind a building for 2 min. in a light holding your assault hostage as you uselessly, randomly charge your gauss awaiting me to hit you with 2 ERLL in my ECM light. Light pilots who derp out 3 or 4 times in tempo get smashed, but It is useless against lights driven by a pilot with much time in the game, but as you are an admitted DEDICATED light pilot, you like that. My point is proven valid.

You seem to be upset that your favored tactic has counters.

As a guy who prefers brawling, please forgive me if I am not sympathetic to your plight.

Your point may be valid, but it doesn't mean that one tactic is stronger or weaker than any other, it means that they each have their place in the overall game, but as your signature says you're a Founding Officer for a team, you know that it's not all about you.

[Reno Blade]

I pilot mechs with Gauss quite often and my only problem is the mass amount of impact shake and explosion in your face when hit by multiple missile/AC projectiles while charging your gauss and trying to aim.
But in that case I will just use my backup weapons and get to next cover and switch out with team mates.

No need to boat.
No problem with brawling and using the Gauss against any target in my Centurion, Hunchback, Thunderbolt, Cataphract, Victor, Highlander, MadDog, MadCat, StormCrow, Warhawk, Direwolf...

I always imagine the surprised face when shooting my Gauss into the anklebiter who thinks you can't hit with the Gauss at less than 100m
It's just like a longer cooldown and doesn't bother me much. But at the same time it simulates the Tabletop minimum range perfectly without some magic damage ramp up of a nicle-iron bullet

[IraqiWalker]

Mechsniper, on 09 October 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

Timing??? FIrst you have NO idea if the light is even coming back out at that spot. Second, I can stand behind a building for 2 min. in a light holding your assault hostage as you uselessly, randomly charge your gauss awaiting me to hit you with 2 ERLL in my ECM light. Light pilots who derp out 3 or 4 times in tempo get smashed, but It is useless against lights driven by a pilot with much time in the game, but as you are an admitted DEDICATED light pilot, you like that. My point is proven valid.

Holding my assault hostage? Your point proven valid because I like lights? Are you trolling right now? Since I have to assume that you are, considering that response.

No assault is held hostage by a light mech at long range. Also, if a light mech is harassing my assault, Either the assault kills it. Moves on, and I kill it. Or sits there acting as bait while I move around and kill it.

My DWF Prime uses a dual Gauss set up. I still have no problems with hitting peeking mechs with it, and if I know I'm not playing against derps, then I either relocate (you can move you know), hunker down to catch them the next time they pop out, or call in a friendly to help me. Sometimes, I might even be wasteful enough so as to spend an arty/air strike on them (extremely rare cases).

Your statement is not proven valid because I pilot lights. Not possible. Especially when you don't know what lights I pilot. Almost all of my lights mount very short range weapons. (My Locusts run MLs, SPLs, and MGs. My COM-2D runs streaks+ML, My Firestarters run MLs as their longest ranged weapon. My Kitfoxes have the longest range with one using ONE ERLL) I brawl in my lights, meaning I don't favor the hill hump ERLL sniper tactic you speak of with lights. I'm the polar opposite (which explains why I suck with the KFX). You won't be sniping my mechs at long range because they will be within 40 meters from you.

Don't declare "victory" just because the person debating you is in favor of something you're critiquing.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 10 October 2014 - 12:41 AM.

[Cimarb]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 09 October 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

...but as your signature says you're a Founding Officer for a team, you know that it's not all about you.

Not necessarily. Just because he is one of the people that initially founded his unit does not mean he cares, or even knows, that it is not about just him. It just means he was one of the first people in the unit and has not been booted yet.

[KritterBug]

so what this is saying is if you have two ppc and a gauss on anything you CAN NOT ALPHA EVER???? wtf kind of mechanic is this
??

[Fiona Marshe]

Check the dates. (2014)

Something strange is going on in the forums. Really old posts seem to be floating to the front page, randomly.

Edited by Fiona Marshe, 17 February 2017 - 12:48 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Fiona Marshe, on 17 February 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

Check the dates. (2014)

Something strange is going on in the forums. Really old posts seem to be floating to the front page, randomly.

Nope, PGI should get the forum search engine fixed but won't. Do a search, it defaults to the EARLIEST thread. PGI does not care as it has been reported repeatedly.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 17 February 2017 - 05:20 PM.