24 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

In the Feedback Thread for Modules, Niko posted this as a response to some of the concerns being raised regarding module costs:

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 July 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

Many people have mentioned the cost of Modules as a concern. It's important to keep in mind modules are intended to be a late-game / veteran stage item. Though I don't advise against those seeking strategy: Looking for the most cost-effective solution in modules is intended to be a moot point. Where a traditional RPG might cut off players from access with level requirements, we have been setting the bar only based on the amount of currency you have accumulated over your many missions without any restriction except ownership of the Mech.

Based on this, I decided to do a bit of math to figure out how long it would take a newish (no cadet bonus) player to earn the resources necessary build a "late-game" mech. First, my assumptions:

• A player earns, on average, 100,000 C-Bills a match
  
• A player earns, on average, 1000 XP a match, which converts into 25 GXP (I think GXP currently converts at a rate of 2.5% - I can't actually find sources that agree on this number)
  
• A Level 5 Weapon Module will cost a total of 3,500 GXP to unlock (currently Level 1 is 500, Level 2 is 600. I assumed a linear increase with each level, so level 3 would be 700, level 4 800 and level 5 900).
  
• The average cost of a Pilot Module is 4.8 Million C-Bills (I just averaged the cost of all the current pilot modules).
  
• The average cost of a Weapon Module is 3 Million C-Bills
  
• This new player is trying to build a mech with 2/2/2 modules.

So, with these assumptions in mind, let's break down what's going on.

Using the assumptions about, we can see that 2 Pilot Modules will cost ~9.6 million C-Bills and 2 Weapon Modules will cost 6 million.

All together, the new player will need to spend 15.6 Million C-Bills in order to outfit their battlemech with 2 Weapon and 2 Pilot Modules. This will take ~156 games to accumulate.

That doesn't seem so bad for "end-game content". This doesn't take into account the cost of building the mech all of this goes on, which can easily run another 10 million (depending on the build), which brings the total number of games to 256.

However the real killer is the GXP.

It will cost 30,000 GXP to unlock 2 Pilot Modules, 7,000 for 2 Weapon Modules and another 30,000 GXP to unlock the Artillery and Airstrike upgrades. If the pilot prefers to only go with one strike and a UAV, it'll cost them 45,000 GXP instead.

This brings their GXP total to 67,000 (or 82,000). This will take 2680 matches (or 3280) to accumulate. Even if GXP converts at a rate of 10% (ie: they're making 100 GXP per match) it will take 670 matches (or 820) to get the required GXP amount to unlock.

To reiterate: 156 matches to gather enough C-Bills to purchase all the modules for one mech. 2680 matches to get enough GXP to unlock those modules.

Bear in mind that the GXP will unlock the modules across all mechs. The user will only need to purchase the actual modules for each mech.

Do you think 156 matches (assuming an average length of 7 minutes, works out to ~18 hours of gameplay) is an acceptable bar for "end game content"?

[Bhelogan]

Artgathan, on 30 July 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

• A player earns, on average, 1000 XP a match, which converts into 25 GXP (I think GXP currently converts at a rate of 2.5% - I can't actually find sources that agree on this number)

thought it was 10%, testing to find out.


--- Ok, Results. Prematch GXP at 6251, earned 705 in match, post match GXP is 6286. That is a delta of 35, which makes it %5. Granted, I'm running premium but I don't think that changes that number.

Edited by Bhelogan, 30 July 2014 - 05:26 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I am not sure if your numbers equate to may experience, but while I bought the full Clan Package, just while mastering one of those mechs (in two weight classes) (all elited first) to gain the extra module slot on the variant I wanted, I had gained enough GXP to open up 2 high end module slots, and several weapon modules to level 2 and purchase them.

So, while I was having fun playing the clan mechs, the ability to open that last module slot and own a couple of them and many weapon ones materialized itself without me having to think too hard on the matter.

That was being monitored, by the way, to make sure I never went below a certain number of cBills; not to a detailed level, merely when I got my clan mechs, I said to myself, lets be frugal with everything and not go below a certain number of already accummulated amount of cBills because, you know, change happens.

To note: it seemed to me that just master one clan (or all three) of a given mech will net you nearly 13-15k in GXP; so, it like balances to the concept of an end game for that chassis. Once the module opens up, and you are frugal with your cbills, you can purchase that extra module, open it up, and add it. It seems to work out just about right.

Edited by Aphoticus, 30 July 2014 - 05:26 AM.

[cleghorn6]

Except it's not 156 matches, is it. Without the GXP, the C-Bills are useless. Really, a player would be using earnings from matches 2524 through 2680 to buy those modules. What they did with the previous 250-odd million C-Bills is more significant.

[Thejuggla]

First part (c-bills) seems somewhat reasonable, gxp is brutal though. Also what about players like me who have nearly 40 mechs, and others who have even more, the cost to outfit every mech become ridiculous. I usually don't bother on most mechs because I don't like switching around modules every match. Modules should be a lot cheaper for a single one or more expensive but able to be used across all mechs at same time. On top of that gxp should be a bit less imo.

[Bhelogan]

I'm OK with the cost. I'm to cheap to buy more than 2 or 3 of any module, and some I only have 1 of. It's not that I couldn't buy more, but it's that C-Bill threshold thing that you don't' want to dip bellow. (Which is currently at 200M for me, but this will get a huge chunk taken out of it when we can buy mercenary board reviews for unit creation).

[Shae Starfyre]

Thejuggla, on 30 July 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

First part (c-bills) seems somewhat reasonable, gxp is brutal though. Also what about players like me who have nearly 40 mechs, and others who have even more, the cost to outfit every mech become ridiculous. I usually don't bother on most mechs because I don't like switching around modules every match. Modules should be a lot cheaper for a single one or more expensive but able to be used across all mechs at same time. On top of that gxp should be a bit less imo.

I found the best way to advance in this game cbill wise is to have only one engine of any given type and one module; the extra few clicks to move to a new chasis in light of how much you save and accumulate in cBills is staggering.

I challenge you to just check your inventory after removing all engines and tally up the cbills you would have if you sell all extra engines; then, load up one mech play it and when the match is done, load up another mech and see how long it really takes.

I have deduced that it saves you more money than you would earn by jumping into another match in an already outfitted mech.

It also keeps things simple; no need to hunt for anything; all mechs have no engines or modules save the one you are piloting. Move to another mech, remove modules and engine; saves more time than you think in the long run and money too.

I only buy weapons and stuff; and leave those on the mech so it is easy to tell which engine goes in it (unless I completely modify it for testing purposes).

Once a month or so, I see what I have in my inventory and reduce all equipment and weapons to a low number of items.

Edited by Aphoticus, 30 July 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[MadPanda]

1000xp average? No way. You get so pathetic xp for losses that averaging to 1000xp will be way too difficult. Something like 600-700xp average sounds more realistic.

[Fut]

[quote name='Niko]Where a traditional RPG might cut off players from access with level requirements' date=' we have been setting the bar only based on the amount of currency you have accumulated over your many missions without any restriction except ownership of the Mech.[/quote']

In all honesty, I'm completely fine with how the Devs are handling "End Game" content like Modules.
It gives people a goal to obtain, and rewards those who stick it and play the game a lot. If Rookies were able to access these items, all the Vets would start complaining that there's nothing left for them.

[Prezimonto]

Can we get actual pilots with a skill trees now? Specialize my pilot for each mech, instead of the same boring mech skills.

Modules are really "mech" item increases afterall... sensors, uav's, ect...

it the mech skills that are really "pilot" skills... better handling, efficient heat dissipation, ect...

Rookie/Veteran/Elite each level having specializations for mech size, chassis, and variant, weapon types, and roles.

Let me switch out pilots like I do modules.

MOAR end game content.

[Artgathan]

Bhelogan, on 30 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

thought it was 10%, testing to find out.


--- Ok, Results. Prematch GXP at 6251, earned 705 in match, post match GXP is 6286. That is a delta of 35, which makes it %5. Granted, I'm running premium but I don't think that changes that number.

Thanks for investigating this. Even at 5% conversion, it will take 1340 matches (156 hours @ 7 minutes/match) to earn the GXP necessary.

Aphoticus, on 30 July 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I am not sure if your numbers equate to may experience, but while I bought the full Clan Package, just while mastering one of those mechs (in two weight classes) (all elited first) to gain the extra module slot on the variant I wanted, I had gained enough GXP to open up 2 high end module slots, and several weapon modules to level 2 and purchase them.

To note: it seemed to me that just master one clan (or all three) of a given mech will net you nearly 13-15k in GXP; so, it like balances to the concept of an end game for that chassis. Once the module opens up, and you are frugal with your cbills, you can purchase that extra module, open it up, and add it. It seems to work out just about right.

Your numbers are way off. It takes ~55,000 XP to master a mech. At 5% conversion this will net you 2750 GXP per mech mastered. Therefore, mastering three mechs will net 8250 GXP.

MadPanda, on 30 July 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

1000xp average? No way. You get so pathetic xp for losses that averaging to 1000xp will be way too difficult. Something like 600-700xp average sounds more realistic.

Fair enough. This sort of range would take ~2233 matches (5% conversion rate).

Fut, on 30 July 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

In all honesty, I'm completely fine with how the Devs are handling "End Game" content like Modules.
It gives people a goal to obtain, and rewards those who stick it and play the game a lot. If Rookies were able to access these items, all the Vets would start complaining that there's nothing left for them.

Bear in mind that (using 600-700 XP/match + 5% conversion) it will take ~260 hours of gameplay (again, assuming 7 minutes/match) to unlock what amounts to 6 modules. This number also doesn't account for time spent waiting to find a match.

I'm not suggesting that this content should be easily accessible. However, 260 hours (2000+ matches) seems like a steep cliff for the new players to have to overcome.

[Angel of Annihilation]

But I currently have 41 mechs which means I would have to come up with 615 miilion just to outfit all my current mechs in modules.

This is why they are too expensive. Basically every mech needs modules and most players are going to have dozens of mechs. Right now you CANNOT earn enough C-bills to buy new mechs, upgrade then AND equip them with modules at anywhere near the pace PGI is releasing the new mech content. Therefore people end up just buying maybe a couple sets of modules that they then transfer between their mechs as they play them.

This is very inconvenient and adds nothing to the game. In fact it is a nuisance that adds frustration to playing because you can't just pick a mech and hit the play button, rather you have rebuild your mech each time you switch which isn't fun.

Lastly even as a C-bill Sink, if they made modules 1 million each, they would still end up with the average player spending probably 20 million more of them than they do now, just for convince.

[Lefty Lucy]

All this **** is on purpose. They make money from mech exp-> gxp conversion.

[nehebkau]

The title of this thread made me laugh out loud.... "endgame content"

There really isn't one, now, is there? For that matter there really isn't a "startgame" either.

Viktor Drake, on 30 July 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

But I currently have 41 mechs which means I would have to come up with 615 miilion just to outfit all my current mechs in modules.

I just swap my modules out between mechs.

Edited by nehebkau, 30 July 2014 - 08:37 AM.

[Davers]

Ok, I read Niko's quote in the OP. But hasn't PGI planned on adding levels that would block some of this end game content? Won't the level system negate what he said?

[Deathlike]

To sum up my opinion of the OP's original thread title: lol wat

I have stupid amounts of GXP collected (like, 200k GXP), but that's after grinding a ton, and using the UAV a lot. For some reason I'm averaging over 1k XP per match (which by say the Lords standards is probably a joke)... which means I get 100GXP per match on average.

Suffice it to say, most of the "endgame content" is a joke, outside of acquiring game changing stuff like Radar Deprivation and Seismic Sensor... and getting upgrades to both Arty, Airstrike, Coolant (both upgrades), and UAV.

Yea, lots of GXP spent on consumable related upgrades... it's a sad state of affairs.

Besides, I'm still poorer than Blake.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 July 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[Yokaiko]

MWO doesn't have endgame.

It has a grind, and no actual game, the game is supposed to be CW....which was supposed to release a year and a half ago.



....but man they have sold some mechs.

[Deathlike]

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

MWO doesn't have endgame.

It has a grind, and no actual game, the game is supposed to be CW....which was supposed to release a year and a half ago.



....but man they have sold some mechs.

Extended sale! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

All we'll get next patch is more lag.

[Shae Starfyre]

Artgathan, on 30 July 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

....

Your numbers are way off. It takes ~55,000 XP to master a mech. At 5% conversion this will net you 2750 GXP per mech mastered. Therefore, mastering three mechs will net 8250 GXP.

...

Well, it doesn't seem to work that way with me; I elited 4 mechs, and mastered 2 and it looked like my GPX was around the 12k mark or a little higher.

Anyways, the point is, that if you concentrate on getting there, it will take you longer; before I knew it, I had enough GPX to open a module and lots of the weapon ones and pay for them too. If I was tallying it up and waiting for it, I would probably have gotten sour after a while too.

Point being, I played Eve Online for 8 years (have some 7 trillion in assets and that is low; some 80 million skill points) and due to lack of dedication, I am nowhere near end game).

Playing this game since open Beta (what is, 2 years now), I have 89 mechs, most of them mastered, 1 of every engine type, 10's to nearly a 100 in every weapon and various do-dads, and almost one of every module (opened and bought) - I see no reason to have more than any one thing that is expensive, and about 50mil in cbills at present.

The point is, it comes in time, and it all came far faster in this game for me then EveOnline, but then again, getting use to that made this game feel casual, timid, and fast to achieve.

Edited by Aphoticus, 30 July 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Artgathan, on 30 July 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

OP's post.

Wouldn't it be even more expensive, though, since you can't take full advantage of this 'end game' content by having your additional pilot module without mastering the chassis...which requires you take two OTHER mechs of the same chassis to elite?

I think your number of hours is low.