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Clan Vs Is Happening Again


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#381 Be Rough With Me Plz

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:17 PM

I'm a little late to this thread, but the bottom line is: PUG players who pilot IS Mechs aren't going to realize that you need to close in quickly to negate the absurd poke advantage the Clan Mechs have. They're too worried about getting their Mechs getting scratched and would rather get picked off one by one at range than grow some balls and bring it to them.

I played 3 matches after the patch which were all IS v. Clan and the Clan team won each match handily on Frozen City (3-12), Alpine (0-12), HPG (2-12). It should have been a clear example of what I've been saying all along - being able to engage the enemy outside of their effective fire envelope is a huge advantage. Don't even get me started on the incredible survivability boost the Clan XL Engine provides. I didn't get a screenshot of the first two matches I played because the IS v. Clan didn't register, but I did get a screenshot of the third and last match I played. I was the only person to get kills in the first and third matches because I flanked around while the rest of my team was getting rolled back and was able to RT core before the enemy caught on.

Posted Image

It's good to know it was an intentional experiment, albeit an unannounced one, and it should make the developers realize just how much of an advantage the increased range is. It left a bad taste in my mouth. Haven't felt like playing since. Add in the Module changes... ggclose

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 31 July 2014 - 11:29 PM.


#382 ShinVector

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:25 PM

View PostPhaeric Cyrh, on 31 July 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:


No, I don't realize that.. In fact every Clan V IS match I played (4) were all ROFLstomps in favor of the clans (12-4, 12-2, 12-0, 12-0).. And it wasn't just that all of us IS pilots suck (sorry to burst your bubble), it's because the superior range, damage and weight of the Clan weapons combined with better heat sinks and XL engines that don't die when losing a side are simply better than what the IS can field. The only draw back is heat, which again is negated by the better heat sinks and lower weight of the engines and weapons.

If one side is forced to only a few viable builds, and have to use more advanced tactics to win, there is a problem with the game balance.



Hmmm.. Dude.. I think you missed a major point. The better weapons are one thing..
But you are forgetting that Clan heavies and above, especially the heavies are generally big size allowing high speed and manuverability.. All the better with XL engines that can survive a side torso destruction.

Speed, manuverability, survivability and jump jets on clan heavies is what makes them so, strong in the right hands. This where IS mechs lose out.

#383 HellJumper

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:29 PM

View PostKharnZor, on 31 July 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

You do realize that IS PP FLD absolutely dominates the clans DOT weaponry right? You don't have to spend more just use your brain when you do your build.



you do realize that clan weapons out range IS weapons and they will pretty much mess you up before you get into the firing range.. i.e. if both sides have clear view of each other.. also the moment you both get in close range and brawl with each other, even if IS mech wins it will be in NO SHAPE to fight anything else at any range...

#384 Kilo 40

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:38 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 31 July 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

The Clans didn't use pulse lasers,


off the top of my head, the stock load outs on the timberwolf and the mad dog both use pulse lasers.

#385 ShinVector

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:40 PM

View PostHellJumper, on 31 July 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:



you do realize that clan weapons out range IS weapons and they will pretty much mess you up before you get into the firing range.. i.e. if both sides have clear view of each other.. also the moment you both get in close range and brawl with each other, even if IS mech wins it will be in NO SHAPE to fight anything else at any range...



Really when it comes to equal skilled players... I would say that Clan weapons versus IS has some balance. The problem with clan mechs like the Timby is "Speed, manuverability, survivability and jump jets"

That's my opinion anyway...

Simple example is ring around the map... The faster clan mechs will eventually catch the slow IS heavy/assault mechs in the back.

#386 IraqiWalker

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:06 AM

View PostKilo 40, on 31 July 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:


off the top of my head, the stock load outs on the timberwolf and the mad dog both use pulse lasers.

View PostScratx, on 31 July 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:


The Vapor Eagle ( http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Goshawk ) would like to have a word with you. ;)

As well as the Timberwolf Prime, A and B. Warhawk C. And I could keep going, there's plenty of configs that have pulse lasers.

Clan pulses in TT have twice the range IS pulses do and do 1 more damage on top.

I have some doubts about your (emphasized) statements... and by the way, IIRC only the micro and small pulse lasers get the Anti-Infantry mod. The Medium and Large Pulses aren't anti-infantry.


If we're going to get literal, fine. It's not that they absolutely never used them. They just used Regular lasers far more than pulse lasers. They actually had those lasers at the bottom of the development tree for the longest time.

The way pulse lasers are described to work is very similar to a sub machine gun, with a small caliber. The rapid fire is the reason they were used heavily against infantry.

View PostHellJumper, on 31 July 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:



you do realize that clan weapons out range IS weapons and they will pretty much mess you up before you get into the firing range.. i.e. if both sides have clear view of each other.. also the moment you both get in close range and brawl with each other, even if IS mech wins it will be in NO SHAPE to fight anything else at any range...

With equal skill the pilots will either be equally stupid, or equally good. If equally good, the IS pilot will have no problem engaging a clan mech at all. Even when starting at a distance.

Even though the maps, and the PuG mentality encourage camping and long range poke, there is cover to use to close in with the enemy.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 01 August 2014 - 12:06 AM.


#387 Kubernetes

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:09 AM

Clan heavies win on all three points: firepower, protection, and mobility.

If you don't think the range advantage is significant, you must be playing a different game. Why is the Gauss/PPC TWolf build so popular? It's a terrible terrible build in a close-in fight because of the awful heat and low dps, but in the majority of matches it won't matter because with good aim you can shred enemies before they even get close. That scary Atlas will have lost a torso long before he can get in brawling range. Not every game is like that, but range matters a lot.

The clear advantage of the Clans can be illustrated through just one weapon: the medium laser. It's the bread-and-butter weapon for just about every build because it's one ton, one slot, fairly low heat. The Clan medium stomps all over the IS version. Four Clan mediums are better than three IS large lasers. (Same range, but 28 dmg, 20 heat, 4 tons vs 27 dmg, 21 heat, 15 tons... and no ghost heat for four mediums).

As for the Direwolf, yeah yeah it's a slow whale, but is there any scarier mech out there when you're caught face to face? It's not the Gauss/PPC build that scares me so much as 5 UAC5s and a bunch of lasers--one mistake and that thing will smoke you in a split second.

#388 Budor

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:15 AM

You are in denial.

Any IS heavy that is "charging" my timber:

- is XL'd and will die when losing 1 side torso
- or has not enough weapons to even come close to 50% of my dps/alpha
- or is so slow i could run circles around him...that charge

#389 Kaspirikay

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:25 AM

Mech with single UAC 20 beats mech with single AC20. What a surprise.

Clan mechs are just plain better than IS mechs. It is pretty much expected by many of us by now, anyone who thinks an IS mech can 1v1 a clan mech is delusional.

also im back guys

#390 Kilo 40

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:33 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 01 August 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

If we're going to get literal, fine.


lol wut?

#391 El Bandito

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:37 AM

View PostJohnny Reb, on 31 July 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

Well, If I wanted to really f.ck the claners, I would take a team with 3 raven 3-L, 3 Cicada 3-M and 3 Atlas DD-C. If pure IS then take top heavies to join the fun. edit: I would prefer that load out with hybrid lrms on my dd-c and some narc with my ravens.


So it will take a pure ECM team in order to beat the Clanners? That is the definition of overpowered Clanner.

#392 Conan Librarian

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:38 AM

The only thing that annoys me is that they'll start nerfing Clans only after they make them purchasable for C-bills so I don't get to have fun in own F2P OP Mad Cat.

I've played too many MMO's before to not notice cash grab when I see one.

#393 El Bandito

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:42 AM

View PostGroovy4life, on 01 August 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

The only thing that annoys me is that they'll start nerfing Clans only after they make them purchasable for C-bills so I don't get to have fun in own F2P OP Mad Cat.

I've played too many MMO's before to not notice cash grab when I see one.


Such is business, though I am am not sure if PGI had that in mind when they implemented the Clan mechs. They just don't seem to be able to find their socks in broad daylight, in my eyes.

#394 MischiefSC

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:04 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 31 July 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

I have to say. I pretty much enjoyed the majority of this post while reading it.

I want different manufacturer variants for my lore-fix, but in all honesty, it would break the balance right now. As it stands IS mechs have great PP FLD with their ballistics. If they lose that and their guns become DoT, we will get a proper and more accurate re-enactment of Operation Revival. Culminating with the entire player base playing only clan mechs.

I also run my Orion as an Atlas lite btw. (Just got my hands on a second one when I bought the Protector a couple of days ago).


IMO the fix is to have the IS weapons with faster refire (more total DPS) but shorter range. More weight/space but less heat. Result? IS packs less weapons total with less range but equal (or even higher) DPS and lower heat (allowing for better sustained DPS).

Clan mechs have better durability (clan XL) but less tonnage flexibility. They do not always have more speed but IS mechs should have engine tonnage cap removed on BOTH ENDS, allowing for more swings in build options.

Final result? IS mechs have more tonnage flexibility to exploit their strengths, Clan mechs should have more omnipod flexibility to exploit frankenmech mixes to get a 'tactical' advantage.

One on one Clan mechs XL design gives them a big advantage as does range and total per-weapon DPS. IS mech designs are better at exploiting massed fire, better overall mobility (as we see now) and generally better hit-boxes (as we see now).

Result should be everyone, IS and Clanners, get an increase in ability to tank damage as there's less overall PPFLD on the field. IS Lights and Mediums will likely end up being faster than Clan ones but packing less firepower - making them better at hit/run and horse archer tactics as well as scouting (which is not directly lore but relates to the lore 'feel', IS better at making/exploiting group vs solo tactical situations) while IS heavies and Assaults will likely be slower but with bigger overall guns (Clans having ERLLs and ERMLs, stacked UAC/XL 5s and 10s or LRMs mixed with ACs and lasers while IS has AC10s and 20s mixed with SRMs and LLs along with some dedicated missile boats).

IS mechs end up designed around a niche, conceptually think of the Boomcat - it has vulnerabilities but you met one around the wrong corner in River City and you had a Bad Time. Clanners, conversely, tend to be omnipod frankenmechs. A good mix of weapons able to deal with a lot of situations. Their hardpoint layouts favor that as opposed to trying to fit 1 niche; even the Timber Wolf 4xSRM6A + 4xCERML, while destructive, spikes heat too bad to deal with, say, 2 or 3 IS mechs of inferior weight.

This lets you give IS mechs weapon flexibility but fixed hardpoints but Clans would have hardpoint flexibility but fixed weapons. As in, no multiple designs of weapons for Clanners, just IS.

Remember; with mixed mechs on each team as they are currently IS mechs and their XLs suffer *more* more from other IS mechs PPFLD builds. I can protect my side torso from CERLL fire and waterfall Clan LRMs. The problem is when I'm getting armor all over stripped by Clanners and then some chump with 2PPCs + 2AC5s pops my side torso out. Removing IS PPFLD will benefit IS mechs more than Clan mechs. Because of Clan XLs you can more easily tank with one side and shoot with the other in Clan mechs, mitigating the PPFLD advantage better as you shoot between weapon cycles.

Make sense? The idea that PPFLD is an IS advantage vs Clans is an illusion. It's an IS advantage against IS. Against Clanners it's way less relevant. Except for the Dire While they're all solid at twisting to mitigate damage and having a solid spread of torsos across their almost universally fat frames. . When you're shooting PPFLD, if you're not one of the top 10 or 20 players in the whole game you're going to put your 1 shot for full damage every 4 seconds into the wrong torso. Against a Clanner 99.999% of players are literally better off being able to walk their damage across the target to the point they want.

DOT for everyone. That will play to the IS strengths, not the Clanner ones. Just keep IS cycle times generally lower, range shorter but heat lower. Burst duration lower (like AC20 being 4 shots of 5, 10 being 3 shots of 3, AC5 being 2 shots of 2.5 each). You can even play with slightly higher IS projectile speeds in return for longer burst duration.

Just keep Clanners as they are now. Make it the 'base line' and they don't get different manufacturer choices. Hardpoint flexibility, weapon limitations. IS gets hardpoint limitations but weapon flexibility.

#395 IraqiWalker

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:34 AM

View PostKubernetes, on 01 August 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

Clan heavies win on all three points: firepower, protection, and mobility.

If you don't think the range advantage is significant, you must be playing a different game. Why is the Gauss/PPC TWolf build so popular? It's a terrible terrible build in a close-in fight because of the awful heat and low dps, but in the majority of matches it won't matter because with good aim you can shred enemies before they even get close. That scary Atlas will have lost a torso long before he can get in brawling range. Not every game is like that, but range matters a lot.

The clear advantage of the Clans can be illustrated through just one weapon: the medium laser. It's the bread-and-butter weapon for just about every build because it's one ton, one slot, fairly low heat. The Clan medium stomps all over the IS version. Four Clan mediums are better than three IS large lasers. (Same range, but 28 dmg, 20 heat, 4 tons vs 27 dmg, 21 heat, 15 tons... and no ghost heat for four mediums).

As for the Direwolf, yeah yeah it's a slow whale, but is there any scarier mech out there when you're caught face to face? It's not the Gauss/PPC build that scares me so much as 5 UAC5s and a bunch of lasers--one mistake and that thing will smoke you in a split second.

That's why good players use cover, and have no problems dealing with clan mechs.

You've seen HPG Manifold. I regularly engage clan mechs there at under 200 meters. Do I do that with magic? No, proper positioning, and not charging in blindly.

View PostBudor, on 01 August 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

You are in denial.

Any IS heavy that is "charging" my timber:

- is XL'd and will die when losing 1 side torso
- or has not enough weapons to even come close to 50% of my dps/alpha
- or is so slow i could run circles around him...that charge

STD 300, AC20, 2SRM4, 4ML ON1-K. STD300,AC20,2SRM6,2ML ON1-P. I tear through T-wolves with both of those mechs easily. The protector didn't have any basics on it, until after I did that 3 t-wolf rampage on HPG in the match I cited earlier.

Again, good players use cover. your range advantage doesn't mean much when I can get to within 300 meters before you see me.

View PostKaspirikay, on 01 August 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Mech with single UAC 20 beats mech with single AC20. What a surprise.

Clan mechs are just plain better than IS mechs. It is pretty much expected by many of us by now, anyone who thinks an IS mech can 1v1 a clan mech is delusional.

also im back guys


Actually, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Again, spread damage + jam chance. Plus better hitboxes, means that the IS mech still has a solid chance. As long as it twists.


View PostMischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

Just keep Clanners as they are now. Make it the 'base line' and they don't get different manufacturer choices. Hardpoint flexibility, weapon limitations. IS gets hardpoint limitations but weapon flexibility.


While I disagree with some of what's up there, it's already been beaten enough that there's no point in rehashing it. However, this part here could be quite interesting. Especially about using the clans as the baseline.

#396 Creovex

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:11 AM

Either my ELO is really low or really high as I have never seen this. In my experience, IS players (I play 50/50) who know how to play their Mech of choice end up being on the winning team..... the mechs in my ELO (whatever it is) are WAY less important than the skill of the pilot in it.

#397 Voidcrafter

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:38 AM

View PostKaspirikay, on 01 August 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Mech with single UAC 20 beats mech with single AC20. What a surprise.

Clan mechs are just plain better than IS mechs. It is pretty much expected by many of us by now, anyone who thinks an IS mech can 1v1 a clan mech is delusional.

also im back guys


How the hell would that happen? B)
As a person that's playing mostly with ballistics since the closed beta time(mostly --> 90+% of the time) I can tell you for sure that the only inferior ballistic weapon that clans posses is the LBX20.
Oooh how would I gladly take that good old AC20 on my timbie anytime over any other "choice" I currently have.
And how do I tear through clan stuff when I mount my good old "Deathwish" CTF-3D.

Call me delusional then - but the problem I see is all delusions about personal skill - the thing you were trying to say is that YOU can't take 1v1 IS vs Clan mech.
Either that - or you don't wish it hard enough.
In my opinion IS weapons are far better for my goals(which are hitting the friggin spot I wish from a huge distance with something aside from the cheesy CERPPCs and CGausses) - I was killing stuff good enough before the clans arrived - I am doing the same now both with Clan or IS mechs.
The only reason I pick the TBR over my beloved CTF-3D is a cliche one - I always wanted to pilot the Mad Cat since Mechcommander and I've never played another competitive Mechwarrior game before.

And a proof for my words, btw, are the games I made with my Shadowhawk 2D2(Std engine + AC20 + Endo + Ferro + 2MedL) - all of them above 400 dmg, most of them above 700, on all sorts of maps, very few of them with less than 3 kills - and all that in a MEDIUM IS mech.
Tbh I barely have achieved the same with the Stormcrow, not to mention the Nova - but that's probably cause of my playstyle.
If you think the players like me are dellusional I very warmly wish you to encounter only those on the battlefield.

For me it's a matter of personal preferences vs personal will to adapt.
Again - too bad I missed that Clan vs IS "event" ;)

#398 Phaeric Cyrh

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:18 AM

I think some of you are missing the point.

In a mixed environment the clans are OK.. They are stronger, but it's not a big deal, I usually run light or medium mechs so I'm used to encountering tougher mechs then me.. I routinely do 200-400 damage in my Raven 3L, and 500-1000 with my Blackjack since the clans came out.

However, it is obvious when looking at the stats, and when playing them that the Clan mechs are indeed tougher/stronger than their IS counterparts, and that point is driven home with force when PGI has turned on IS v Clan in the match maker.. Everyone I have talked to, and everyone in this thread except those who have a history of ardently defending the "clan balance" have reported clan rolls during C v IS matches.

I don't think I am in the minority when I say that I really want community warfare. And as it stands now that will not succeed.. If the clans remain as they are, everyone will switch to them when they come out for C-bills and there will be no one fighting for the inner sphere.

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 01 August 2014 - 03:21 AM.


#399 Davegt27

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:12 AM

View PostVoidcrafter, on 01 August 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:


How the hell would that happen? B)
As a person that's playing mostly with ballistics since the closed beta time(mostly --> 90+% of the time) I can tell you for sure that the only inferior ballistic weapon that clans posses is the LBX20.
Oooh how would I gladly take that good old AC20 on my timbie anytime over any other "choice" I currently have.
And how do I tear through clan stuff when I mount my good old "Deathwish" CTF-3D.

Call me delusional then - but the problem I see is all delusions about personal skill - the thing you were trying to say is that YOU can't take 1v1 IS vs Clan mech.
Either that - or you don't wish it hard enough.
In my opinion IS weapons are far better for my goals(which are hitting the friggin spot I wish from a huge distance with something aside from the cheesy CERPPCs and CGausses) - I was killing stuff good enough before the clans arrived - I am doing the same now both with Clan or IS mechs.
The only reason I pick the TBR over my beloved CTF-3D is a cliche one - I always wanted to pilot the Mad Cat since Mechcommander and I've never played another competitive Mechwarrior game before.

And a proof for my words, btw, are the games I made with my Shadowhawk 2D2(Std engine + AC20 + Endo + Ferro + 2MedL) - all of them above 400 dmg, most of them above 700, on all sorts of maps, very few of them with less than 3 kills - and all that in a MEDIUM IS mech.
Tbh I barely have achieved the same with the Stormcrow, not to mention the Nova - but that's probably cause of my playstyle.
If you think the players like me are dellusional I very warmly wish you to encounter only those on the battlefield.

For me it's a matter of personal preferences vs personal will to adapt.
Again - too bad I missed that Clan vs IS "event" ;)


I wish they would bring Clan VS IS back just to convince the non believers. I want it back for other reasons its fun its a challenge, that day we also had IS vs IS and they where longer more boring matches. I had to change my load out after getting stomped by Clan mechs, I went from five AC2's to two AC2's and two AC5's. those DW are a hard nut to crack I mean if I am alone I run, an atlas man that thing is almost worthless
JMTCW

#400 SnowdogJJJ

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:18 AM

So who really didn't know Clan mechs would be better.. making anyone who wants to play pay. To win you have to be in the new for sale mech, just ask devs. Oh!, Sorry they cant talk about it. Got to make money somewhere, wake up people. Either get with the program or find something else to play. If you have not figured out (by now) that your opinion on "what should be" really doesn't count, then you never will..

I say good day..





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