576 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 01 August 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

I think some of you are missing the point.

In a mixed environment the clans are OK.. They are stronger, but it's not a big deal, I usually run light or medium mechs so I'm used to encountering tougher mechs then me.. I routinely do 200-400 damage in my Raven 3L, and 500-1000 with my Blackjack since the clans came out.

However, it is obvious when looking at the stats, and when playing them that the Clan mechs are indeed tougher/stronger than their IS counterparts, and that point is driven home with force when PGI has turned on IS v Clan in the match maker.. Everyone I have talked to, and everyone in this thread except those who have a history of ardently defending the "clan balance" have reported clan rolls during C v IS matches.

I don't think I am in the minority when I say that I really want community warfare. And as it stands now that will not succeed.. If the clans remain as they are, everyone will switch to them when they come out for C-bills and there will be no one fighting for the inner sphere.

No, we're getting the point, and we're trying to explain that the point is wrong. Since even in Clan Vs. IS we had the same results of face crunching clan mechs with IS mechs.

Votanin FleshRender, on 01 August 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

This kind of test shouldn't have been done until there were trial clan mechs, to spread the new players between the sides instead of the IS being handicapped with all (or MOST) of the new players. How many trial mechs, on average, did the IS have on their teams every game?

THIS, about a thousand times.

VanillaG, on 01 August 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

You can't look at the screenshots of 12-3 victories/losses and come to the conclusion that Clans are overpowered. There are screenshots of IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan with those same types of outcomes. When I play it is common to see these types of victories/losses in mixed mode. My suspicion is that the changes to the MM to support 3/3/3/3 and Clan vs IS types of matches has done something to make matches more lopsided. Before that change I would see matches that ended much closer. My guess is that ELO is a lesser priority when it comes to creating matches so you end up with an unbalance on the skill between the teams.

All these stomps (12-0, and other matches like that {not for clan vs. IS, just in general) show one thing, and one thing only: Most people can't finish off mechs properly. Plus, once a team gets a 3-5 mech advantage, they will never lose momentum, unless something drastic is done.

Phaeric Cyrh, on 01 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

If it were as random as you try to make it sound, how come we didn't see rolls in favor of the IS then?

If I had known that people were going to make such a big fuss. I would've screen capped my matches, and showed you the 12-0 on River City Skirmish, 12-2 on Caustic Valley (I was in a BLR-1S, and we had ONE raven with TAG and NARC), the 12-8 on Terra Therma, and the 12-1 on Crimson Strait (funny enough, we funneled them into the tunnel, and proceeded to shoot them from all three flanks, the DWFs were a real pain, but considering everyone knew that, and focused them down, we had no problems over all.

Tharnes, on 01 August 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Please don't act like the Clans require any serious amount of skill, or represent a "better" playerbase.
Hitting the alphastrike-button on the Clans until the game is over is quite manageable.

If that's your playstyle, that could explain why you have problems with them. A clan pilot that keeps hitting the alpha strike button will die of over heat with their second shot.

Phaeric Cyrh, on 01 August 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

My concern is that if you keep the clans the way they are, everyone will simply buy them and play them. Most players aren't going to be content playing with what they know to be inferior hardware, even if the that advantage isn't huge. Sure you will have the hardcore's who will live and die with the IS, but that is far and away the minority. If CW is going to succeed they are going to have to make people feel they are on even footing.

The real problem is that IS equipment isn't inferior. The problem is that people don't understand that, and will keep on thinking it is.

SolasTau, on 01 August 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

My initial reaction to all this is simply unnerf the nerfed IS weapons. See where that puts things.

ML's. SL's, and AC2's were all nerfed from what I understand. There's probably more, I haven't been playing very long. IMO, it's time to pull the gloves off the Inner Sphere. It sounds like a small change, but I bet it'd be bigger than you'd think.

MLs need to be given their original heat rate, SLs are fine, and AC2s have been brought to line from being the most ridiculous weapon in the game to a reasonable level.

[Kubernetes]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 01 August 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

And again, if the clan mechs "should be better" who exactlty do you think is going to be left for them to fight when they come out for C-Bills? Why do you think IS pilots will keep piloting inferior tech?

For the same reason you didn't see complete build and chassis homogeneity before the Clans--because most people who play aren't out to play The Best Build On The Best Mech all the time. It makes sense in competitive play to eke out every marginal advantage, but in public games people use mechs they may personally favor for one reason or another. It's the reason that I took out my Orion VA for a spin last night, and then switched to Stalker 3F. Both of these are pretty middling mechs in their weight classes, but I I have a ton of fun playing with them.

If all I cared about was pure lethality I would have played with only three mechs in the past year (Firebrand, 3D, Dragon Slayer), and one specific build for each. But that's boring as hell. And I don't think I'm alone, based on the number of Trebuchets and Quickdraws I've seen in the last few weeks.

[MischiefSC]

For the love of god. Did you know the Clans don't have regular Medium lasers or regular PPCs, or regular Autocannons? As such the only lasers they can buy are pulse or ER and ACs are all LBX or Ultra.

Result?

UAC20 is 1.2 million, so is LB20X.
CERML is 80,000.

So the handful of weapons the IS have in common with the Clans, you know the most expensive weapons in the IS arsenal, are the same price.

Otherwise everything the Clan packs is more expensive.

How about this one -

When buying stock mechs, which IS mech is more expensive to buy stock than its equal tonnage Clan counterpart?

Are you worried that if you're not wrong 1 time you'll jinx the magic? Have you just... never been right and don't know how that feels and so it scares you? Help me understand just why you feel the need to keep being wrong.

[Yokaiko]

Like I said, compare apples to apples.

Stock mechs AREN'T a valid comparison, not even the trials are stock mechs. NO ONE uses stock mechs except a few diehards from the TT days.

[Augustus Martelus II]

well right now its mostly (IS with clan) mix vs (Is with clan mix) in pug games.

i don t feel an invasion there lol

[Augustus Martelus II]

I would like if they could make other kind of game mode: 2 team of IS fighting then at 4 mins, they need to fight AI clans coming by waves....could be a hell of a fun.

And AI would be near Pro and could adapt their tactic. Lots of games do it so i think MWO could do it. (i know lot of people will tell me: WTHELL! we don t want to have AI vs players games) But it would make something different.

Or IS mech holding a base or city vs invading AI mechs....we would have 24 players in the same team...wich mean lot of actions and daka daka

[MischiefSC]

We're talking about cost to purchase mechs. how much you're going to spend to get a mech.

I'm going to spend ~$17 million to get a Timber Wolf (if I hadn't already bought them) chassis. I'm going to spend $6 million to get an Orion. You can then say 'Yes, but I like to spend an extra $10 million on bonus extra stuff on every mech cuz otherwise I'm being oppressed by THE MAN.'

That's you being wrong and trying to force your playstyle on others.

I'll probably spend 2-3 million extra. So, 9 million.

So a 75 ton IS Orion will run me ~9 million/chassis to buy and outfit the way I want, since I'm carrying a bunch of gear over from other mechs. A 75 ton TW will cost me 15-17 million/chassis.

One of those is a bigger number than the other. Here, I'll do it again and bigger for you.

IS - including DHS and Endo - ~ $9 million per chassis.

Clan - ~$15 to 17 million per chassis.

Go ahead! I believe in you! You can do it! Which is more expensive?

I realize the above comments are bordering on offensive and insulting. You started that vein prior. I don't think it's unreasonable to observe however that you are not, nor have you been, debating in good faith. You're basing arguments on the idea that since you can afford it then it's not over priced and that because it's Clan tech (which is supposed to be balanced, except it's supposed to be better? Can you clarify that one?) it's.... supposed to be more expensive?

Do we need to go back to the you being wrong thing?

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

One of those is a bigger number than the other. Here, I'll do it again and bigger for you.

IS - including DHS and Endo - ~ $9 million per chassis.

Clan - ~$15 to 17 million per chassis.

I already posted exactly that, you aren't just repeating yourself, you are repeating me now?

LOL

[MischiefSC]

Addendum -

If I can pick up a Twolf for ~$10 million/chassis that's not unreasonable. It still creates the issue of Clan mechs being 'elite gear/top tech upgrade equipment' which effectively invalidates all IS mechs and tech but it's not as bad.

If Clan tech is equal ti IS tech, then it needs to be equal. Equal cost, effort, buy-in, etc. If it's better but that's balanced by 'you need a higher skill to use Clan weapons effectively' or 'it costs more' then you're not making them 'equal'. You're making Clans the upgraded end-game content.

Which dooms CW. It means CW will consist of newbies in IS gear with a handful of diehards being farmed by the elite players in more elite mechs.

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

I already posted exactly that, you aren't just repeating yourself, you are repeating me now?

LOL

So you agree, Clan mechs are way more expensive than IS mechs for the same tonnage and thus not balanced?

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Addendum -

If I can pick up a Twolf for ~$10 million/chassis that's not unreasonable. It still creates the issue of Clan mechs being 'elite gear/top tech upgrade equipment' which effectively invalidates all IS mechs and tech but it's not as bad.

If Clan tech is equal ti IS tech, then it needs to be equal. Equal cost, effort, buy-in, etc. If it's better but that's balanced by 'you need a higher skill to use Clan weapons effectively' or 'it costs more' then you're not making them 'equal'. You're making Clans the upgraded end-game content.

Which dooms CW. It means CW will consist of newbies in IS gear with a handful of diehards being farmed by the elite players in more elite mechs.



So you agree, Clan mechs are way more expensive than IS mechs for the same tonnage and thus not balanced?

This has been the game FOREVER. If I'm sitting on a rack of fully customized and maxed out IS mechs, and you are coming at me with a (C) on your variant.

You are going to have a bad time.

What else is new. This has been the argument FOREVER. Literally before they released the Awesome.

Actually that is the reason for the engine limits.

The justification was that slas hunchies were "taking the light's rolls" running around at 124 or so...

Well no, if you built a Jenner to the same spec, it was 30kph faster and had similar firepower......but they didn't want to spend the 5 mil for the Xl300.

Peronal problem, its right there, get to grinding.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[VanillaG]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

So you agree, Clan mechs are way more expensive than IS mechs for the same tonnage and thus not balanced?

Clan mechs are only more expensive because you cannot share/swap engines between chassis. If they implemented a change to IS mechs that said that you could only purchase and sell engines for a mech and never swap them between chassis then the IS mechs would be comparable to Clan mechs in prices.

All of the weapons cost the same but the Clans only have access to the most expensive weapons. So the Clan mechs would cost a little more but they would be in same ballpark. If anything, IS mechs are going to start getting more expensive when the IS versions of the Clan weapons are introduced in the game.

[MischiefSC]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

This has been the game FOREVER. If I'm sitting on a rack of fully customized and maxed out IS mechs, and you are coming at me with a (C) on your variant.

You are going to have a bad time.

What else is new. This has been the argument FOREVER. Literally before they released the Awesome.

Okay, this is a serious question -

Do you understand that The Clans are a different faction than the IS? That they are opposite sides? That we're not talking about each faction having different levels of players in them (all the IS houses for example) but that one side of the war, the Clans, will be the elite upgrade faction and the other is the newbie faction?

So new players will get put on one side of the conflict in inferior gear and experienced players will have better equipment and all be on the same side against them?

So if we did that with Elo now; that we had all the best mechs with all the highest Elo players put in one team and all the trial mechs with newbies all together on the other team, you understand that wouldn't be good, right?

At this point I really feel like I'm clubbing seals in this argument. If all of this makes sense to you and sounds 'correct' then... well, good on you. Best of luck. Please make sure you've got your helmet on before you leave the house. All the best to you and yours.

You're wrong but don't understand the very fundamentals of the argument to appreciate how and why. That's a depth of misunderstanding that the forum does not provided the resources to help.

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

Okay, this is a serious question -

Do you understand that The Clans are a different faction than the IS? That they are opposite sides? That we're not talking about each faction having different levels of players in them (all the IS houses for example) but that one side of the war, the Clans, will be the elite upgrade faction and the other is the newbie faction?

Nope, played the table top, even read a few of the books when I was a kid, I had no idea. None whatsoever.

The rest is you pontificating. If they add the stock primes as trials, problem solved. The stock Stormcrow and Timber are actually pretty damn good. The lights are outclassed by the IS mechs...FLAT outclassed (this is why they are always humping a friendly Direwolf's leg) Warhawk is crap stock (4 Er-PPC + ghostheat...bad time) and stock whale would heat itself to death.

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Addendum -

If I can pick up a Twolf for ~$10 million/chassis that's not unreasonable. It still creates the issue of Clan mechs being 'elite gear/top tech upgrade equipment' which effectively invalidates all IS mechs and tech but it's not as bad.

If Clan tech is equal ti IS tech, then it needs to be equal. Equal cost, effort, buy-in, etc. If it's better but that's balanced by 'you need a higher skill to use Clan weapons effectively' or 'it costs more' then you're not making them 'equal'. You're making Clans the upgraded end-game content.

Which dooms CW. It means CW will consist of newbies in IS gear with a handful of diehards being farmed by the elite players in more elite mechs.



So you agree, Clan mechs are way more expensive than IS mechs for the same tonnage and thus not balanced?

Lowering the price for Clan mechs essentially devalues the equipment and weapons of Clan mechs below the prices of IS equipment, which doesn't make sense, considering they're overall better equipment and more rare on the market. Know how much Clan mechs were over IS mechs in MW2 Mercs? A LOT.

Imagine you're buying a house. You have 2 choices:
1. Decent house with no upgrades.
2. Better house with central air, heated tiles, in-ground pool, etc.

Yes, you can customize the decent house and pick the upgrades you want to save money, but the better house comes "as is." Just because you don't see the necessity of having an in-ground pool doesn't mean the property value should be lowered.

The Clans do have advantages. They aren't supposed to be equal to IS tech. They also frequently bid low for the forces to take over a planet, meaning balance issues for CW can simply be (and should be) compensated for by requiring Clan teams to field less numbers, such as 10v12 (2 stars vs 3 lances).

Really wish people would get over trying to balance everything 1-for-1. Mainly because it will never, ever happen. Besides, PGI has a knack for over-adjusting things. I would be lying if I said Clans were perfectly fine right now. They do need some adjustments. Thing is, those adjustments are small tweaks that need to be slowly honed in on.

I stay away from IS mechs now because they all feel nerfed. Every single one, down right miserable to pilot because they feel so incredibly useless after getting nerfed since closed beta, but they've felt that way even before Clans got released.

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Clan mechs need to be the new baseline. All IS mechs need balanced to that baseline. The Timber Wolf at 75 tons should be the 'this is more or less how cool/fun a mech should be' benchmark. If it's not as fun as a TW, it needs fixed.

That should be the goal. If it's not, then we're doing the whole game wrong.

^This. Absolutely this. We should be readjusting IS mechs to make them more enjoyable to play in-line with Clans. Not nerfing Clans into the same uselessness as the IS mechs currently stand.

[Yokaiko]

Aresye, on 01 August 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

^This. Absolutely this. We should be readjusting IS mechs to make them more enjoyable to play in-line with Clans. Not nerfing Clans into the same uselessness as the IS mechs currently stand.

Turn off the engine limits, reduce heat on slas and mlas to TT values, kill ghost heat......oh unfuck JJs for assaults and un-nerf Victor.

Pull bandaids, then balance.

Not that it will happen, but that would be a start.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

IraqiWalker, on 01 August 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

No, we're getting the point, and we're trying to explain that the point is wrong. Since even in Clan Vs. IS we had the same results of face crunching clan mechs with IS mechs.

All these stomps (12-0, and other matches like that {not for clan vs. IS, just in general) show one thing, and one thing only: Most people can't finish off mechs properly. Plus, once a team gets a 3-5 mech advantage, they will never lose momentum, unless something drastic is done.

So you say, but you are the only one in this thread reporting such results, and you have nothing to back it up.. Others have posted screenshots.

Quote

If I had known that people were going to make such a big fuss. I would've screen capped my matches, and showed you the 12-0 on River City Skirmish, 12-2 on Caustic Valley (I was in a BLR-1S, and we had ONE raven with TAG and NARC), the 12-8 on Terra Therma, and the 12-1 on Crimson Strait (funny enough, we funneled them into the tunnel, and proceeded to shoot them from all three flanks, the DWFs were a real pain, but considering everyone knew that, and focused them down, we had no problems over all.

You didn't know? So was is it another IraqiWalker I have seen so ardently arguing clan balance in all these threads I have been reading over the past couple weeks?

You are telling me you had no idea that the concept of the Clan's being over powered hasn't been a hot point of contention since virtually the day of their release? A concept you have argued so hard against for these past couple weeks, and yet when in C v IS matches that were successive rolls in favor of the IS you didn't think to take a screen shot to use for your next debate?

Are you feeling OK?

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 01 August 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[mongo2006]

Tharnes, on 30 July 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

The balance is completely broken currently. There are teams full of Timbers running around, alphastriking the IS mechs to shreds, they just don't overheat enough.
60€ give you a guaranteed 600+ damage, no matter how bad you play the clan heavys/assaults. This is pure p2w, no excuse for it.

We need massive nerfs for clans and/or harsh matchmaking, more than 1-2 clan are overkill in any team.

YOUR AN IDIOT

Dude I have over 50 mechs, most of them mastered, I would take a 2 ppc, 2 UAC-5 Jager over a Timber any day of the week. This Clan mechs are OP is coming from some of the:

1. No skill, let me pop my head out to see if that Dire Wolf is still there, IDIOTS!
2. Broke asses that refuse to buy the clan mechs to see just how nurfed they really are.
3. People who are {IS} pilots through and through who will never own a clan mech and want to make them as weak as possible by screaming NURF THE CLAN MECHS!!! they have no idea why but it just sounds good..


Put some legs on a refrigerator and I could kick the asses of 2/3 of the people on the server with it.. Skill dude not the mech wins

Edited by mongo2006, 01 August 2014 - 03:36 PM.

[Jeb]

Cost per mech is cost per mech... doesn't mater the faction, and you can't reuse items to lower the IS mechs cost to make them seem lower...
Clan mechs are upgraded IS mechs are not.
Clan mechs have only expensive weapons, IS mechs have cheaper versions.

The clan mechs will cost a bit more to get into up front, but the IS mechs are deceiving in their cost as new players don't realize they also probably do need a new engine, DHS, and Eno, plus a bunch of weapon swaps to make their mech decent...

[Yokaiko]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 01 August 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

You are telling me you had no idea that the concept of the Clan's being over powered hasn't been a hot point of contention since virtually the day of their release? A concept you have argued so hard against for these past couple weeks, and yet when in C v IS matches that were successive rolls in favor of the IS you didn't think to take a screen shot to use for your next debate?

Are you feeling OK?

People still argue that LRMs are overpowered. The weakest, least reliable, pound for pound worst damage output weapon in the game.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

People still argue that LRMs are overpowered. The weakest, least reliable, pound for pound worst damage output weapon in the game.

I wasn't aware we had LRM mech vs non LRM mech matches and the LRM mech's got skunked (of course they would). Not sure how relevant your point is. I'm not making this argument out of thin air because it feels like it. We are discussing the results of the C v IS matches and how they seemed to heavily favor the Clans. There have been several screens posted and many more anecdotes of clan rolls.

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 01 August 2014 - 03:38 PM.