25 replies to this topic

[Haxburch]

Awesome is in the BT universe a PPC based mech and now he also work like this.
With bonus to energy wapons , but i would prefer if the Awesome get the less Heat bonus ongly for PPC .

Then do this to all the IS mechs , IS mech are specialists and the Mech should have a Bonus for the orginal mainwapon. This would make this mechs better also against the Clans . Clans should not get this perks because Clans are Omni - mechs and no specialists , Clans have Omni-pods .

It would also lead to more different mech builds and richer gameplay.
Sry for my enlish its not native.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Clan mechs should get the tweaks as well, just some to kinda promote the mech to roll it's base configuration.

Atleast the Prime variants of each mech.

[ManDaisy]

I think the clans already have quirks for individual parts. Perhaps you asking for something like a set bonus for all the same parts? That wouldnt be to bad. There would be an incentive you use the varients and not make franken omnis to get the "set bonus"

Edited by ManDaisy, 02 August 2014 - 04:27 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 August 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Clan mechs should get the tweaks as well, just some to kinda promote the mech to roll it's base configuration.

Atleast the Prime variants of each mech.

Well, I have a slight argument against that.

Let's look at the Timberwolf Prime as an example.

TWF-Prime:
2CERLL
2CERML
1CMPulse
2CLRM20
2MG.

Not a terrible build, save for one outstanding elephant in the room to me. and that's the Mpulse laser. I run essentially a prime Timberwolf in my Prime variant, save for that pulse laser. I remove it for a couple of extra heat sinks. Because it really doesn't bring anything to the table save for a tiny bit of extra punch, and it just feels... weird to keep it on the mech to me.

so I remove a weapon and add a heat sink. Yet the mech is primarily, in it's prime configuration save for that single change. your proposal punishes me because I chose to flop a single weapons system for a heatsink in an omni mech...

I can't agree with that.

[gunghoblazes]

Would not mind a 20% thrust boost on the summoner, since you are stuck with those JJs.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

They have quirks and glitches built into the omnipods. The point of a clan mech IS to mess with it.

[gunghoblazes]

Keira_NZ, on 02 August 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

They have quirks and glitches built into the omnipods. The point of a clan mech IS to mess with it.

Ah yes you are correct. I totally overlooked this after hundreds of games.

Also I think I would of rather had a 2-3% overall armor buff on the Dragon instead of the
ones it got.

Edited by gunghoblazes, 02 August 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

yes you must have, to be whining about adding more quirks to them. Maybe another hundred games you'll realize its not needed on the clan stuff.

Then again.... you'll still whine

[gunghoblazes]

Keira_NZ, on 02 August 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

yes you must have, to be whining about adding more quirks to them. Maybe another hundred games you'll realize its not needed on the clan stuff.

Then again.... you'll still whine

Oh thank you for your accurate description of me. I learn something new every day.

[Tezcatli]

I agree. Like how the Hunchback is built around using a heavy AC on a smaller mech. Or the Trebuchet is meant to be a medium missile support unit. The IS mechs tend to be built around an idea. Well not all of them. But quite a few are. And sadly they're being outclassed by the all purpose clan mechs.

Though even among the Clan mechs. Some clan mechs are clearly better then others in their respective weight class. They should try to address this by applying negative quirks to the stronger clan mechs and positive to the ones that seem to be lacking.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

Learn something new every day?

pfft... now you're just being silly!

On a serious note, quirks and bonuses on the IS mechs are a good idea. It would give them more character and individual personality.

Edited by Keira_NZ, 02 August 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 August 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Clan mechs should get the tweaks as well, just some to kinda promote the mech to roll it's base configuration.

Atleast the Prime variants of each mech.

The whole point of an Omnimech is that it is customizable to fill multiple rolls. People seem to forget that for some reason.

[gunghoblazes]

Viktor Drake, on 02 August 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

The whole point of an Omnimech is that it is customizable to fill multiple rolls. People seem to forget that for some reason.

This is understandable, however why do they even have quirks to begin with?

Keira_NZ, on 02 August 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

On a serious note, quirks and bonuses on the IS mechs are a good idea. It would give them more character and individual personality.

A good statement, this is exactly where the Summoner is. Thank you for your great argument.

[Wolfways]

Viktor Drake, on 02 August 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

The whole point of an Omnimech is that it is customizable to fill multiple rolls. People seem to forget that for some reason.

And some people seem to forget that even clan mechs have variants, just like IS mechs.

[Koniving]

Haxburch, on 02 August 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

It would also lead to more different mech builds and richer gameplay.

Unfortunately due to PGI's design: Lasers suck and PPCs are awesome.

So making PPCs as the only useful benefited weapon is not going to achieve "different mech builds and richer gameplay."

To mention it...
The Awesome 8Q is one of two Awesomes that uses PPCs.
The Awesome 8V uses a PPC, Large Laser, Small Laser, and 1 LRM-15. It has no primary weapon.
The Awesome 9M uses ER PPCs. (Note that PPCs and ER PPCs are not actually the same weapon).
The Awesome 8R uses Large Laser, small laser, and LRM-15s. The LRM-15s are the primary weapon.
The Awesome 8T uses 2 Large Lasers and 2 LRM-15s. It uses both weapon types equally.

1 Awesome uses PPCs as the main weapon.
2 Awesomes use PPCs at all.
1 Awesome uses ER PPCs as the main weapon.
3 Awesomes use Large Lasers.
3 Awesomes use LRM-15s.
All Awesomes use Small Lasers (that's 5 not counting the Pretty Baby).

Even if we combine the ER PPCs with PPCs, we have 2 Awesomes using them as primary weapons, 3 using them. We have 3 Awesomes using LRM-15s. 3 Awesomes using Large Lasers. 5 Awesomes using small lasers.

I'm not seeing anything giving me reason to believe that laser weapons should NOT be included in its quirk.

In truth the Awesome should have better efficiency with both energy and missile weapons if we use your reasons.

----------

If you want diversity...
What would make more sense is to base all armor limits on stock values and establish a set limit of how much more you can have. (Say stock armor + 3 tons = max).

Lets compare Victors and Awesomes.
If the Victor 9b's stock armor is 368 then 3 tons more (+96 points) is 464 as its new max.
If the Awesome 8V's stock armor is 480 points then 3 tons more (+96 points) is 576 as its new maximum armor.

Now you have a reason to pick an Awesome without any quirks.

Want a reason to pick a Dragon? The Dragon 1-C starts with 402 points of armor in MWO. Add 96 points. Dragon 1-C outclasses ALL Victors in armor. Most Dragons outclass most of the Victors.

But wait, there's more! The Dragon 1-C is recorded as having 13 tons of armor and Smurfy says there is 0.43 tons free; Dragon 1-C only has 12.5625 tons of armor. At the fluffed 13 tons of armor it'd be 416 points of armor (+ the 3 tons or 96 points) = 512 points of armor.

Fun fact: The popular Stalker 3F has 432 points of armor. Most Stalkers outclass it in armor. 432 + 96 = 528 points of armor.
So the Dragon is just 16 points or 1/2 ton short in armor to a Stalker. If that isn't enough reason to run a Dragon, I don't know what is...

We'd see Locusts be as viable as Jenners (with equal armor values). Ravens would dominate the field -- but NOT the 3-L. It'd be the Raven 4X which in the lore was built as a "Brawling light" that is designed "to tangle against significantly more tonnage and win." The best Firestarter in armor (the FS9-A) would only be on par with the Raven 2X, while the rest are just marginally more armored than the Raven 3-L.

The choice between the Kintaro and the Griffin wouldn't be "Griffin has jumpjets get it." It would be "The Griffin has jumpjets, but its armor is like a Hunchback or Catapult's. The Kintaro has more armor."

The choice between the Wolverine and the Shadowhawk wouldn't be "Shadowhawks are awesome, Wolverines suck." It would be "Want to brawl and take a lot of hits? Go with a Wolverine. Want firepower or to be a sniper? Go for the Shadowhawk but keep your distance. You're pretty fragile."

But we know we will never see a truly intelligent design decision such as that.

Edited by Koniving, 02 August 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[gunghoblazes]

Koniving, on 02 August 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

I
Want a reason to pick a Dragon? The Dragon 1-C starts with 402 points of armor in MWO. Add 96 points. Dragon 1-C outclasses ALL Victors in armor. Most Dragons outclass most of the Victors.

But wait, there's more! The Dragon 1-C is recorded as having 13 tons of armor and Smurfy says there is 0.43 tons free; Dragon 1-C only has 12.5625 tons of armor. At the fluffed 13 tons of armor it'd be 416 points of armor (+ the 3 tons or 96 points) = 512 points of armor.

Fun fact: The popular Stalker 3F has 432 points of armor. Most Stalkers outclass it in armor. 432 + 96 = 528 points of armor.
So the Dragon is just 16 points or 1/2 ton short in armor to a Stalker. If that isn't enough reason to run a Dragon, I don't know what is...

We'd see Locusts be as viable as Jenners (with equal armor values). Ravens would dominate the field -- but NOT the 3-L. It'd be the Raven 4X which in the lore was built as a "Brawling light" that is designed "to tangle against significantly more tonnage and win." The best Firestarter in armor (the FS9-A) would only be on par with the Raven 2X, while the rest are just marginally more armored than the Raven 3-L.

You are right the dragon can have some good armor values, the only problem with that is its design. I played the Dragon before they "fixed the CT" and ever since. However it is a fat mech, unless they decide to redesign it(never) I would of rather had an armor uprade. You are right I was wrong with my initial assumption of %s, maybe .5-1% would be more in line.

Edited by gunghoblazes, 02 August 2014 - 06:41 PM.

[Koniving]

gunghoblazes, on 02 August 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

My initial assumption of %s, maybe .5-1% would be more in line.

Thank you. But see the issue is not the value of percentages. You could use differences of 1% on an Atlas and 9% on a Locust, and you'll have still screwed the Locust completely to be inferior compared to the stock differences. And if you buff the percentages much higher you'll have turned the Locust into an unstoppable killing machine while having turned the Atlas into a garbage can.

The problem is the the use of any percentage itself.

Spoiler

For example PGI has chosen to give 12% more armor to ferro for Inner Sphere and 20% more armor to ferro for Clans.
This means 35.84 points per ton for IS and 38.4 points per ton for Clans.
Tabletop was simply 18. 18 * 2 = 36.
Both sides should have 36 points per ton of ferro armor. But Clans are clearly better. Why? Percentages.

How come I can have a mech with 0.49 tons free that I can't use because I put on ferro armor for an Inner Sphere mech but can't put on a machine gun, when a Clan mech of 75 tons can have 74.8 tons taken and still slap in a 0.25 ton machine gun? Simple. Percentages.

Problem with percentages in EVERY form is that it leaves unfair changes.

Lets look at armor with standard armor and compare two mechs.
JM6-S has 192 points of armor. Lets say we gave it 1% more = 193.92 points of armor. Gain of 1.92 points of armor.
Lets give the Atlas (608) 0.5% more = 611.04. Gain of 3.04 points of armor.
Not much point, and it's still an unfair lead for the heavily armored.

One solid, even number is even to everyone, and is literally a slider that glides to the right. "Stock differences + more" while doing it universally rather than giving advantages or metas to one specific mech or type.

Using the JM6-S and Atlas comparison with stock...
JM6-S = 192
Atlas = 608.
608 - 192 = 416 points difference.

With 1% more for the JM6-S and 0.5% more for the Atlas.
JM6-S = 193.92
Atlas = 611.04
611.04 - 193.92 = 417.12 points difference; a percentage even with more in favor of the Jager made the gap between the Jager and the Atlas worse, Jagermech just became obsolete and worthless.

And an even amount.
JM6-S = 288
Atlas = 704
704 - 288 = 416. Identical differences to stock, everything got preserved. The mech's identity, its chances against a superior armored mech, no b.s. meta created, no "this mech is just better", no alienation of light, medium or heavy mechs compared to the highly armored assaults.

No matter what, a percentage will always favor the greater unit to fluff its power while siphoning it from the other mech. The goal of an armor overhaul is to make it fair for everyone. If a mech has awful hardpoints or awful speed limits because it started out with high armor, then that high armor should mean something.

Take the Shadowhawk. The reason Shadowhawks have such great hardpoints is because it sacrificed armor. Now look at the Wolverine. The Wolverine's hardpoints are awful (PGI had to inflate them because they were THAT bad). Now why was the Wolverine's hardpoints bad? It carried lots of armor. In MWO's current design everyone has equal armor. That sacrifice doesn't exist, Shadowhawks just get better stuff.

In the end...
A stock-based armor maximum with a universal increase makes that sacrifice matter while making both mechs.
But a stock-based armor maximum using percentages just obsoletes the weak-armored mechs, and Shadowhawks become dead on arrival while Wolverines become the only meta worth bothering with for any mech 55 tons or under.

Edited by Koniving, 02 August 2014 - 07:18 PM.

[gunghoblazes]

Koniving, on 02 August 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

Thank you. But see the issue is not the value of percentages. You could use differences of 1% on an Atlas and 9% on a Locust, and you'll have still screwed the Locust completely to be inferior compared to the stock differences. And if you buff the percentages much higher you'll have turned the Locust into an unstoppable killing machine while having turned the Atlas into a garbage can.

t

Aye, humburgers. Maybe a CT Buff similar to the Awesome maybe not so much though. I love the Dragon, I just want to see it as relevant as it was after the CT fix in CB.

Edited by gunghoblazes, 02 August 2014 - 07:58 PM.

[ManDaisy]

For the record, the awesome needs the shoulders to be part of the arms and not the side torso to completely fix the awesome. Right now its not awesome.

[Haxburch]

ManDaisy, on 02 August 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

For the record, the awesome needs the shoulders to be part of the arms and not the side torso to completely fix the awesome.  Right now its not awesome.

The Awesome is not the wondermech now !  But i play him since a day again . Played the ASW last time 2012 before ! I do now 300-600 dmg in the most matches and 1-3 kills also mostly.He has weakness ! But he is has also strongs now ! So PGI did a awsome job and did not break any balance with this tweaks. Its a IS mech and Clans are stronger and it should be like this. All what i mean is give IS mechs some tweaks like the  Awesome has around the chassis idea! Then IS mechs feel some kind of unique. This will make the game better and would not hurt anybody . Clans would be still better . I have 2 Clan mechs my self but i love the Awesome . Because he is cool with all the weakness he is just COOL !

Keira_NZ, on 02 August 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

On a serious note, quirks and bonuses on the IS mechs are a good idea. It would give them more character and individual personality.

This is my point of view to. I could not say it better !

Edited by Haxburch, 02 August 2014 - 10:56 PM.