55 replies to this topic

[M3 SABLE]

I am really confused and annoyed with these consistent complaints about ECM and how it "ruins", your idea of "balance"...

FIrst off, before my passionate mini rant... I have to say that i deeply love the idea of Electronics Warfare. This game with big stompy robots that attempts simulation rather than arcady shooter, full of various electronic gadgets and modules, could greatly benefit from such aspect of gameplay.

It saddens me a little, that good majority would rather follow their damn tabletop canon (despite this game being a god damn team FPS FFS!!!), instead of implementing more interesting and rich functions in this sci-fi world. Well... I guess nothing can fight your "immersion-breakage". GG

- In this poptart meta, I can't even fathom what ECM is troubling you with. You can't lock-on your PPCs or something?
- A good deal of the community is a bunch of LRM-whiners, who still create COUNTLESS threads about how LRM "ruins" this game, despite ECM still being supposedly "OMG OP"
-You can COUNTER ECM! Counter ECM with another ECM, or don't be a cheap ******* and get BAP.

-Mechs that are able to equip ECM are not even that viable or meta-fit. Nor are they good damage dealers, or damage-soakers. (Except close-range, slow-ass, FAtlas DDC that is TO THIS DAY, focus-fired FIRST). Now put the clan weaponry and mechs in equation, ECM complaints sound even more ridiculous.

-Out of Mechs that can equip ECM, only DDC is mostly the "team-player", that actually makes ECM matter. (and no, I don't care if DDC has no ECM in tabletop. F#$% your tabletop canon!!!) That is because light mechs run away sniping/harassing solo, and dying. However, it does not matter though, because DDC is still focus fired first, even by people that can't even grasp the value of ECM to this day...




In other words... I think it would be more fun and beneficial for the game to evolve and buff the "Electronics Warfare" aspect of the game. Improve things like Seismic Sensor, improve ECM to do something about the damn Arty/Air strikes, improve AMS. Add some sort of radar or aiming-disruption modules, or even vision-disruption modules. Make some sort of Electro-magnetic offensive tools to make the mechs go crazy. It is the the future damn it... Is there really no stuff like that in Battletech lore aside ECM?!!?!??!?!?!?!


P.S

Oh wait... Just had module slots nerfed on my DDC in favor of two 80k, mandatory consumables, and >ONE< USELESS weapon module ... Maaaaaan...

This is what I am talking about. Why can't we at least have modules we want that are already present? Sensory modules, Radar modules...

Edited by Unikron, 05 August 2014 - 01:12 AM.

[Noth]

The problem with ECM is that it is a hard counter, that is countered with hard counters and then there are hard counters to those counters. That is bad design.

This also in turn leads LRMs to either be OP (to those in certain circumstances such as caustic valley, no ecm and you get narc'd, you are pretty much dead), or be completely worthless when ecm is around or maps with lots of cover.

[Alistair Winter]

The amount of caps lock, cursing and exclamation marks in the OP gives me little hope that this will lead to a civilized, productive discussion. But against my better judgement, here's a quick explanation:

- ECM is supposed to contribute to more role warfare. Instead, it does the opposite, by greatly limiting the effect of scouts and LRM support.
- You can counter ECM with TAG, BAP and NARC.
- BAP needs to be close to the ECM in order to counter it, which is quite risky when the ECM mech is escorting a lance of heavy or assault mechs.
- TAG takes forever to work against ECM mechs, and by the time you have a lock, the enemy will have seen the red laser beam and either put a hole in your mech or forced you to stop tagging to avoid damage.
- NARC only works against ECM mechs, not against normal mechs under the ECM bubble. This means the ECM mech can stay behind cover, while allied mechs just eat NARC missiles like candy, with no effect. It's also a 4 ton counter to a 1,5 ton device. NARC requires skill, ECM is automatic.
- In the solo queue, ECM has a huge impact. If both teams have LRM boats, but one team has 3 ECM mechs, while the other has 0 ECM mechs, it's almost certainly going to be a stomp.

If ECM was balanced, then 12 Atlas D-DC's should not be superior to 12 Atlas RS mechs. 12 Highlanders with jump jets should not be superior to 12 Highlanders without jump jets. In the case of jump jets, it's a trade-off between firepower and mobility. In the case of ECM, you have a 1,5 ton device that almost renders you invulnerable to LRMs, makes it impossible for opponents to see a paper doll from a distance, etc. It's not close to being balanced.

But if you've been playing since 2012 and still don't see the problem, I doubt you ever will. That's not a bad thing, it's just that different people have different wishes.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 05 August 2014 - 01:36 AM.

[Aresye]

It's because ECM is supposed to make the electronic warfare game more interesting. Instead, there's just ECM, or no EW.

It's a piece of equipment that (due to the way the sensor mechanics [or lack thereof] works) ends up being more powerful than it ever was supposed to be in canon, leading the developers to implement it only on a select few chassis instead of being an option for the player. Less player options and forcing them to play unwanted chassis for the sake of having a single more powerful piece of equipment is bad game design.

Players will complain about bad game design, so thus, you have people complaining about ECM.

/thread?

[Vassago Rain]

E-warfare starts and ends with ECM.
It should be called ECM warfare, because those other items don't do a whole lot.

[El Bandito]

OP has no sense of game balance.

[Noth]

sneeking, on 05 August 2014 - 02:10 AM, said:

ecm is the least of the problems facing us, match making is key to balance and its not working.

if there is balance in making matches then one ecm one missile boat one pinpoint meta ***** not one alone can turn the match.

imbalance leads to stomps....

No game has match making that is that good.

[Budor]

I remember that one day when a ecm raven touched me and my rockets stopped aiming it was ridonkolous! Oh and my cousins blood bro lives next to a ddc and he is having a migraine!

[Noth]

Budor, on 05 August 2014 - 02:20 AM, said:

I remember that one day when a ecm raven touched me and my rockets stopped aiming it was ridonkolous! Oh and my cousins blood bro lives next to a ddc and he is having a migraine!

Anything you add into a game where the only counter for it is more of itself and it is also a hard counter, you should take that as a sign that it is poorly design. Overtime they've added more counters, but that only covers the problem or the poor design.

[M3 SABLE]

Noth, on 05 August 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

The problem with ECM is that it is a hard counter, that is countered with hard counters and then there are hard counters to those counters. That is bad design.

This also in turn leads LRMs to either be OP (to those in certain circumstances such as caustic valley, no ecm and you get narc'd, you are pretty much dead), or be completely worthless when ecm is around or maps with lots of cover.

Alistair Winter, on 05 August 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

The amount of caps lock, cursing and exclamation marks in the OP gives me little hope that this will lead to a civilized, productive discussion. But against my better judgement, here's a quick explanation:

- ECM is supposed to contribute to more role warfare. Instead, it does the opposite, by greatly limiting the effect of scouts and LRM support.
- You can counter ECM with TAG, BAP and NARC.
- BAP needs to be close to the ECM in order to counter it, which is quite risky when the ECM mech is escorting a lance of heavy or assault mechs.
- TAG takes forever to work against ECM mechs, and by the time you have a lock, the enemy will have seen the red laser beam and either put a hole in your mech or forced you to stop tagging to avoid damage.
- NARC only works against ECM mechs, not against normal mechs under the ECM bubble. This means the ECM mech can stay behind cover, while allied mechs just eat NARC missiles like candy, with no effect. It's also a 4 ton counter to a 1,5 ton device. NARC requires skill, ECM is automatic.
- In the solo queue, ECM has a huge impact. If both teams have LRM boats, but one team has 3 ECM mechs, while the other has 0 ECM mechs, it's almost certainly going to be a stomp.

If ECM was balanced, then 12 Atlas D-DC's should not be superior to 12 Atlas RS mechs. 12 Highlanders with jump jets should not be superior to 12 Highlanders without jump jets. In the case of jump jets, it's a trade-off between firepower and mobility. In the case of ECM, you have a 1,5 ton device that almost renders you invulnerable to LRMs, makes it impossible for opponents to see a paper doll from a distance, etc. It's not close to being balanced.

But if you've been playing since 2012 and still don't see the problem, I doubt you ever will. That's not a bad thing, it's just that different people have different wishes.

What? You want a perfect balance equality between chassis of the same mech?! I know the gap should not be that large, but that just defines boredom for me. Certain models should fill spots and be better at them.

Your 12 on 12 Atlas example, is first of all unrealistic because it probably won't ever happen unless pre-made to be that way, and not even that far fetched. It is also a matter of loadout. +ECM is key factor against LRM and streaks. It does nothing against the meta poptarting.

Avoid using LRM and:

-Atlas-D model has a good chance, and is actually a better brawler/zombie than DDC. (And from my own experience, I never reached the damage-dealt higher than Atlas-D, on my DDC).
-Atlas-RS can equip more long-range weaponry via 2 more Laser hardpoints in the arms. PPCs=top dog
- Even 12 Atlas-K have a chance if DDC focus on their advantage with ECM, and focus on equipping LRMs.

But Atlas-K does not have to be better than DDC, because K can serve well as AMS supporter of a moving group, and still dish out decent damage (ooops, in-before Clan invasion). It is equivalent of having 2 AMS mechs in 1, plus tons of armor.

DDC is superior to other chassis, but only superior in something, as other are superior in other things.


Sounds to me like you all are just too bothered and lazy in your LRM boats when there is an ECM covered target...

ECM gives a purpose to scouts with Narc, scouts and batteries with TAG, and other tools. No one would even use that trash if ECM was not present, and its presence is not all that hard to take down with guns anyway...

P.S

Sry for the caps/swearing sweetie. I would be more gentle to your sensitive eyes next time. I don't want to get reported, do I?

Edited by Unikron, 05 August 2014 - 04:04 AM.

[M3 SABLE]

El Bandito, on 05 August 2014 - 01:59 AM, said:

OP has no sense of game balance.

Oh omniscient being... tell me more!

[Alistair Winter]

Unikron, on 05 August 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

Sounds to me like you all are just too bothered and lazy in your LRM boats when there is an ECM covered target...

Sounds to me like you're more interested in putting words in other people's mouths, with no base in reality what so ever, just to serve your own argument, instead of actually trying to learn why other people disagree with you.

I'm done with this thread.

[M3 SABLE]

Alistair Winter, on 05 August 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

Sounds to me like you're more interested in putting words in other people's mouths, with no base in reality what so ever, just to serve your own argument, instead of actually trying to learn why other people disagree with you.

I'm done with this thread.

you should've added :"*drops the mic"

[John1352]

sneeking, on 05 August 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

ecm in its current form is a perfectly acceptable counter to spam culture in my opinion.

What's broken is match making where I see four ecm on one side none on the other, .

.
If ECM was balanced, then the game with 4 ECM on one side and none on the other would also be balanced. If I said:

"The Timberwolf is balanced with the Orion, but if the matchmaker puts 3 Timberwolves on one side and 3 Orions on the other, the Orions lost because the matchmaker is broken." you'd tell me my logic is broken.

[M3 SABLE]

John1352, on 05 August 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

.
If ECM was balanced, then the game with 4 ECM on one side and none on the other would also be balanced. If I said:

"The Timberwolf is balanced with the Orion, but if the matchmaker puts 3 Timberwolves on one side and 3 Orions on the other, the Orions lost because the matchmaker is broken." you'd tell me my logic is broken.

And what if the team with no ECM on their side are not morons, and are prepared to go against it with NARC/TAG? Or how about they understand that first thing first, they need to destroy ECM bearer?

Or how about no one even cares whether there is ECM or not, because they are just a group of poptarts that can MELT the ECM filled team?

ECM capable mechs are not valued for their offensive capabilities...

[Lily from animove]

Because you know, not everoyne PPC's
Becaue you know, ECM is not used in MM
Because you know one team with 4 ecms and no voip vs one team with no ECM and no VOIP is hardly balanced.
(how to counter ECM, when ther eis no ECM, also whats the range of counter ECM?) much fund finding the fool in the solo pug trying to run int the opponent team. crowding aroung the ECM mech.
How can such a low ton of equipment balance THAT mauch?
Because you know, solo queue houses a lot of newbies.
Because you know the most people do NOT play META.

Unikron, on 05 August 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

And what if the team with no ECM on their side are not morons, and are prepared to go against it with NARC/TAG? Or how about they understand that first thing first, they need to destroy ECM bearer?

Or how about no one even cares whether there is ECM or not, because they are just a group of poptarts that can MELT the ECM filled team?

ECM capable mechs are not valued for their offensive capabilities...

yeah try narcing/tagging at ERPPC and gauus at 1000m.

And you still imply everyone poptarts, LOL

Edited by Lily from animove, 05 August 2014 - 04:14 AM.

[Wolfways]

Even ignoring ECM's other benefits there's still the fact that PGI's magic box completely negates a weapon system. That in itself is OP.

[CDLord HHGD]

I've quite gotten used to ECM however my beef with it still stands.

ECM as implemented in MWO combines three separate pieces of equipment into one small component. If any further changes are to be made to it I'd do one of the following:
1) Separate it out into three separate 2 crits/1.5 ton components; Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, and Null Signature.*
OR
2) Make current ECM a 6 crit/4.5 ton mega component.

*Some of these are Lostech and not timeline appropriate. Clan components are 1 crit/1ton (or 3/3 for the mega component).

[Prezimonto]

Unikron, on 05 August 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

What? You want a perfect balance equality between chassis of the same mech?! I know the gap should not be that large, but that just defines boredom for me. Certain models should fill spots and be better at them.

Your 12 on 12 Atlas example, is first of all unrealistic because it probably won't ever happen unless pre-made to be that way, and not even that far fetched. It is also a matter of loadout. +ECM is key factor against LRM and streaks. It does nothing against the meta poptarting.

Avoid using LRM and:

-Atlas-D model has a good chance, and is actually a better brawler/zombie than DDC. (And from my own experience, I never reached the damage-dealt higher than Atlas-D, on my DDC).
-Atlas-RS can equip more long-range weaponry via 2 more Laser hardpoints in the arms. PPCs=top dog
- Even 12 Atlas-K have a chance if DDC focus on their advantage with ECM, and focus on equipping LRMs.

But Atlas-K does not have to be better than DDC, because K can serve well as AMS supporter of a moving group, and still dish out decent damage (ooops, in-before Clan invasion). It is equivalent of having 2 AMS mechs in 1, plus tons of armor.

DDC is superior to other chassis, but only superior in something, as other are superior in other things.


Sounds to me like you all are just too bothered and lazy in your LRM boats when there is an ECM covered target...

ECM gives a purpose to scouts with Narc, scouts and batteries with TAG, and other tools. No one would even use that trash if ECM was not present, and its presence is not all that hard to take down with guns anyway...

P.S

Sry for the caps/swearing sweetie. I would be more gentle to your sensitive eyes next time. I don't want to get reported, do I?

I was going to mention that ECM is a one stop complete solution to E-warefare that's boring, discourages role warefare by being the main event, that's wildly over powered for a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that requires no skill or risk, that completely shuts down nearly 1/3 of the weapons in the game without other hard counters being present, that turns an entire team into a a pile of multi-ton death ninjas.

Let's look at the Raven 3L: meant to be an electronics support mech. Carries ECM/TAG/NARC/BAP. Because BAP has to function as a hard counter for ECM it can't receive other functions without being over powered. BAP then becomes, essentially a 1.5 ton module (sensor range) with the ability to target shut down mechs (worthless). BAP and ECM don't stack in anti-ECM ability, so you can't get a double anti-ECM field, AND the most useful feature of BAP is worthless. TAG and NARC are support items for missiles, whose real primary utility is counter ECM.

So we've got an e-warfare mech whose stock loadout is bad because it all revolves around ECM which has TOO MANY FEATURES. Add that those feature require no-risk/reward in the game play and they're mainly hard counters (which IS bad game design).

Suppose, instead that LRM's needed TAG/NARC to fire indirectly, fired at half the rate for double the damage so taking a single volley of LRM fire was painful, but you're unlikely to be spammed to death before you find cover. That ECM, properly, shuts down TAG/NARC/BAP, but nothing else.

Or suppose that EVERYONE with ALL weapon system had a delay to perfect convergence (small scattering of all weapon fire off the cross hair) until you received full targeting information on your target. TAG/NARC speed up the aquisition of targeting information, TAG/NARC now are wanted by all mechs and scouts have a real role. ECM is highly valuable without being the center piece of electronics warfare. BAP is also signifcantly more useful by ALL mechs in this situation, by pushing your ability to gain targeting information (and convergence of multiple weapons) out to greater ranges.

Suppose that ECM carried risk/reward: what if it adds 5 heat for every mech you're covering in your bubble (up to 90%)? Sure, cover your whole team but it will take a significant chunk of your heat capacity. Or what if it only gave the mech it's on "stealth" and everyone else the TAG/NARC/BAP protection? These would be more balanced solutions to the item, as the player would have to take care with how and when it's used/toggled to on.

In short, you seem to really hate LRM weapons. I think a better question for you would be why? It's just as legitimate a weapons system in the game and setting, and in-fact is significantly closer to being implemented well than ECM. I understand if LRM's aren't your play style, but why hate on them so hard?

[M3 SABLE]

Lily from animove, on 05 August 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

Because you know, not everoyne PPC's
Becaue you know, ECM is not used in MM
Because you know one team with 4 ecms and no voip vs one team with no ECM and no VOIP is hardly balanced.
(how to counter ECM, when ther eis no ECM, also whats the range of counter ECM?) much fund finding the fool in the solo pug trying to run int the opponent team. crowding aroung the ECM mech.
How can such a low ton of equipment balance THAT mauch?
Because you know, solo queue houses a lot of newbies.
Because you know the most people do NOT play META.




yeah try narcing/tagging at ERPPC and gauus at 1000m.

And you still imply everyone poptarts, LOL

that is why NARC bearers RUN at well over 100 KM/H and have a slim/light build FYI.

And that VOIP no VOIP is absolute idiocy of an argument. Yes ECM, no ECM. IF one team has voip and another one does not, that is already major dis-balance even if teams had identical mechs and loadout. But you decide to put the blame on in-game item?

And this is how newbies learn in every game. They get mostly owned. That is how I learned in almost every single game.
It is dev's fault in Matchmaking division if they are matched against much more experienced player.

But only experienced players will actually explain things in /all chat (from my experience), and only against experienced players will newbs new trick and functions directly in combat (from my experience)

At least that is how I learned and liked it. I don't see how your ECM comes into an equation when you bring out totally different branch of problems of game's development...