71 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 05 August 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Jump Jets have always been stupid, nothing new there.
1. PGI didn't understand how they worked, and didn't realize how they affected the game until they held a promotional tournament, showcasing just how boring MWO could be.
2. They removed knockdown, because the server-side authority was unable to accurately calculate location and HSR, and yet PGI failed to realize those same issues occur when jumping, hence the popularity of the bunny hoppers.
3. PGI identified two principal problems with jumping. shooting while jumping, and effectiveness of 1-2 jump jets. None of their changes have fixed either problem.

Simple solutions: no shooting in the air (or invoke cone fire, none of that ineffectual cockpit shake)
jump jets are added as an upgrade (like endo and ferro), it is all or nothing, and the jets are fixed in their canonical crit locations.
jump jets acceleration and animation are set to a level that does not confuse HSR.
jump jets provide approximately 6m of lift per JJ, allowing phenomenal spider jumps, while a 3x JJ highlander can barely clear the top of a mech for that infamous (and highly skilled) attack.
jump jets "fuel" is on a 10s cycle (like heat dissipation), JJ thrust regeneration is based on engine load (heat production) since regenerating jump jets draw directly from the engine (eg the more heat your expending the slower your jump jet refuel, an idle mech can refill from 0 fuel to full in 10 seconds).

don't agree with all of these (if the reticle shake was so ineffective, would see more "skilled players" shooting on the upjump.), but do like the core of several of the ideas. Don't care for the all or nothing approach, I believe a top heavy thrust curve based off the first JJ being slow, and about 6 meters, with distance and speed increasing for every JJ added would be better, but do like most of the rest.

Lexx, on 05 August 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

I think they should greatly increase the power of jump jets, but make them shake your mech the whole time you are in the air. Jump snipers won't be able to hit anything, but jumping brawlers won't be effected much, since they will be so close to their target they will still be able to hit them while shaking.

I just bought Ravens and the 2 jump jets on the Huggin are pretty much useless. They barely get my mech off the ground and I can't add more. The 3 jets on my Raven 4x aren't much better either. I can't even jump up on top of a building that's barely taller than my mech with them.

Since the reason jump jets got nerfed so hard is pop-tarting, then just make the mech skake during the entire jump. The bigger the mech is the more it should shake. Then increase their thust by at least 50%. This would solve the problem without making jump jets a waste of space and tonnage like they are now.

Sorry, PGI has specifically stated they don't want to eliminate Jumpsniping as a valid tactic, which it is. And I agree with them. What needs be done is simply increase the difficulty level to compensate, to readjust the risk/reward ratio.

[Carrioncrows]

I can't help but feel this is what is happening with the barrage of balance changes

The JJ change in particular lacked any relative intelligence or thought with regard to the direction the game is going.

To put it simply, someone is:

Edited by Carrioncrows, 05 August 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Hammerhai]

While everybody and then some would like to poptart again, by the looks of it, I want to be able to maneuver the way I used to to dodge shots in my jenner. But yeah, poptarts ....

[Bishop Steiner]

Hammerhai, on 05 August 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

While everybody and then some would like to poptart again, by the looks of it, I want to be able to maneuver the way I used to to dodge shots in my jenner. But yeah, poptarts ....

really? Pretty sure very few of the posts have been "pro-poptart".


I certainly never cared for the tactic, overall, though I certainly was not going to say no to taking a shot while in the air, if it presented itself. Most people, especially the Comp Crowd, specifically wanted it to be a less dominant tactic, but only a fool or a bad wanted it totally gone as one.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 August 2014 - 08:58 AM.

[Roland]

Adiuvo, on 05 August 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

They need to be balanced in comparison to non-JJ mechs. At least you can climb that hill, a non-JJ mech can't entirely.

With changes to the hill climb system changes can come to jumpjets, but that honestly seems a far way off.

I think that this is, again, an example of PGI changing too many things at once.

I would suggest that you should almost ALWAYS be able to climb a hill, with the exception of sheer cliff faces, in any mech without JJ's.

The change to slow mechs down when climbing hills was a good change.. it makes sense. However, the fact that you so often get stuck and stop completely when climbing non-sheer cliffs severely limits mobility, and in many ways reduce the fun of piloting. Getting stuck is not fun.

The JJ's are just silly now though.. as many folks have said, they're basically hover jets. You can hover and glide around, but you can't really JUMP much.

I understand that many folks are afraid of jumpsniping.. and frankly, I don't care about that conversation. I enjoy playing my jumpsniping TWolf, but if I couldn't fire my weapons accuately while airborn, I would adapt just fine.

But I really don't like the fact that even when devoting 3 tons to JJ's, I still can't get up over fairly tiny hills.

Bishop Steiner, on 05 August 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Sorry, PGI has specifically stated they don't want to eliminate Jumpsniping as a valid tactic, which it is. And I agree with them. What needs be done is simply increase the difficulty level to compensate, to readjust the risk/reward ratio.

I agree that it's valid, and I use it myself.

However, if it comes down to "jumpsniping vs. high mobility JJ's" then I will choose the high mobility JJ's. And it seems like PGI is making us decide between those two things.

I'd rather be able to jump over obstacles easily, even if it meant I was not able to fire with any accuracy while airborne.

[PappySmurf]

Agent o Fortune [ PGI didn't understand how they worked, and didn't realize how they affected the game until they held a promotional tournament, showcasing just how boring MWO could be.]

First off how could PGI devs and staff not know how jump jets worked in MechWarrior?
They had MW2-MW4 and the MWLL-Mektek mods also at there disposal to learn from?
Of course the answer is PGI\Devs threw all the PC CD'S in the garbage and never looked back.

That is why we have World Of Mechs to play and not a true BT/MechWarrior game.
Now we have roller skates for Jump Jets.

P.S I loved the MechWarrior3 jump jets the most they were way crazy but you could do amazing things in battles with them.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

I also agree with people that I too think the JJ mechanic is broken

If I were to pick between Jumping and Hovering I would pick jumping which I felt some of the older Mechwarriors did better in this aspect of JJ usage. In MWO as it stands it feels way too clunky and not usable really at all even for helping with terrain climbing to justify mounting them on my mechs when I can use the tonnage for armor or ammo or other things I will find more important on the battlefield to mount on my mech

I really do hope that PGI is reading our posts and takes some consideration into their existing JJ system

[Mechteric]

PappySmurf, on 05 August 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

First off how could PGI devs and staff not know how jump jets worked in MechWarrior?
They had MW2-MW4 and the MWLL-Mektek mods also at there disposal to learn from?
Of course the answer is PGI\Devs threw all the PC CD'S in the garbage and never looked back.

The jump jets used to be like the jets in MW4 though (which were always terribly floaty and lended too well to easy jump sniping), but where they are is a new low in Mechwarrior history. Lets hope they pull out of this nose dive soon.

[Rhaythe]

"High mobility" jump jets should not be a thing for anything weighing more than 60 tons, in my worthless opinion. At that point, we might as well have this:



(Not that it's a bad game. It's just very much not a Battletech™ game.)

[SixstringSamurai]

Novakaine, on 05 August 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

I want jj's for my Stalker.

new hero stalker the Hindenburg....just saying....it would be awesome.

[Kadreal]

As a light pilot, I never use my jump jets evasively. I only use them for faster 180s, climbing hills or reducing fall damage. You are much easier to hit while jump jetting since you start moving in basicly a straight line. Weaving is life in a light. It also doesn't help that my juicy legs are stationary while jumping. The thought of using jump jets to 'avoid enemy fire' is laughable.

[terrycloth]

Where JJs are now seems okay for single-jump-jet mechs. You've got the bare minimum, so you can barely lift off. Extra JJs should give more thrust instead of more duration, though. Right now every jet past the first is basically a backup fuel tank or something.

Jumpsniping is still happening. So is 'poking your head over a hill and firing, then backing down the hill'. Or peeking around a corner. They're all basically the same thing, just using different kinds of cover.

[Trauglodyte]

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

At this point, I think it's time the devs revised their approach to JJ balancing.

JJ's are still useful for jumping around in combat (and at this point, generally creating lag warping via the broken animations). I can jump snipe with them. It's perhaps harder than it was, but it's not impossible.

What has become far harder though, is simply using JJ's to navigate terrain. JJ's feel so sluggish and underpowered, that jumping up and over ridges is often impossible.

The Alpine mountains are a prime example of this. You'll be stuck on the cliff face, and jump up some.. only to land, and slide back down. Often, you're doing this while able to see the top of the ridge, only one mech height down.

I honestly don't care about jumpsniping. I do it, and I like it.

But if I have to choose between preserving the ability to jumpsnipe, and being able to jump around terrain? I'm gonna take the mobility. That's a much more interesting gameplay mechanic than jumpsniping.

So if PGI is determined to prevent the domination of mechs like jumping victors and MadCats, can we just deal with the problem at its source, and add the JJ shake back in like it was originally? Then fix JJ's so that we can actually use them for maneuvering easily?

As it stands, they're useful for jumping and spinning in close combat, and hopping slightly to snipe over ridges... but not for real mobility.

The thing that is really holding JJs back is a complete lack of imagination and balance on JJs.

- JJs let you get around terrain that non-JJ mechs struggle with or simply can't move beyond
- JJs allow you to jump snipe/LRM (the latter being much harder thanks to radar derp)
- JJs still don't generate enough heat to be an offsetting penalty for what they provide
- the aiming penalty from JJs is irrelevant after you stop actually jumping
- you can still use 1 JJ to get done what you need but more JJs aren't that beneficial

What kills me is that they have the answer and have had the answer since they added in engines (ie, the beginning). When you are in a mech standing completely still, it takes a few seconds for you to go from 0 kph to max speed. The reason for this is because the engine rating, and mech, determines acceleration. Furthemore, the bigger the engine, the faster you can go. So, why are we lacking such things with JJs?

+ Add in JJ acceleration and make it decrease with more JJs; acceleration would be based on the JJ class impacted by mech weight
+ Increase max JJ speed to be a set % of max engine speed (minus efficiency bonus[es])
+ Put in a slight movement penalty based on terrain physics upon application of JJ (ie, if you have them equipped, you suck a bit more on handling terrain than a normal land locked mech - not much but 5-10% should do it)

At any rate, JJs need to be used to get out and around terrain. The entire design intent should focus around adding weight and impactful heat as a down side to providing the means to momentarily negate terrain physics. Adding on to that, the system should be an actual boost and should peak at a % of your mech's unadjusted maximum speed while also having a certain amount of time needed to get there. The more JJs, the faster you accelerate, the faster the you move once fully accelerated, and the further you're able to jump.

Right now, though, we're locked into this terrible system where the number of JJs dictate the distance upon which you jump and other awful mechanics that keep getting in the way. Stop reinventing the wheel and just apply current science and physics into the game. We have them for the land locked mechs and yet PGI keeps trying to change up a process and create something entirely different.

[Kibble]

JJ's need to be changed. I mean look at the intro to both MW2 and MW2 Ghost bear....an f'ing Kodiak jumps better then what we have in game.

[NovaFury]

Even if you could land a DFA without being obliterated and actually hitting a mech moving and evading, it doesn't even do anything because our collision damage model is so pathetic.

[Foxwalker]

Clydewinder, on 05 August 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

The thrust output is completely borked. A 45 ton Blackjack with 2 tons of jumpjets can jump fairly well, but a 90 ton Highlander C with 8 tons of jumpjets is basically a piece of furniture. Lets see, 2 tons JJ for 45 tons = 4% of weight for thrust on BJ, 8 tons of JJ for 90 tons = 9% of weight for thrust on HGN. ????

Quickdraws used to be able to jump like crazy... now??? LOL good luck with that.

Ya, the only way a Highlander is going to do Death-from-Above now is to step off a cliff onto another Mech, and with the current mechanics you will do more damage to your legs than the Mech you happened to land on. LOL..

[Ultimax]

Rhaythe, on 05 August 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

"High mobility" jump jets should not be a thing for anything weighing more than 60 tons, in my worthless opinion. At that point, we might as well have this:

I think you might need to re-read sarna entries on the Victor and Highlander.

The idea that being larger means you shouldn't have good mobility is what gets us awful JJ nerfs, and Victor torso twist speed nerfs.

When a single HGN jump jet weighs the same as FOUR Jump Jets for any Light or Med chassis, then you should get high mobility (at least jumping) out of it.

I can't even remember the last time I've seen a Highlander in the past 50 matches. This is what forum nerf herding & bad design concepts get us.



We have these dumb nerfs because PGI wants to preserve Jump Sniping, not do away with it.

I'm at the point now, where I'd rather they just kill jump sniping and give us really fun, high mobility jump jets and then overhaul the damned terrain code so Fatlases and Dire Whales can actually climb the A2/A3 slope on River City.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 August 2014 - 01:25 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 05 August 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Jump Jets have always been stupid, nothing new there.
1. PGI didn't understand how they worked, and didn't realize how they affected the game until they held a promotional tournament, showcasing just how boring MWO could be.
2. They removed knockdown, because the server-side authority was unable to accurately calculate location and HSR, and yet PGI failed to realize those same issues occur when jumping, hence the popularity of the bunny hoppers.
3. PGI identified two principal problems with jumping. shooting while jumping, and effectiveness of 1-2 jump jets. None of their changes have fixed either problem.

Simple solutions: no shooting in the air (or invoke cone fire, none of that ineffectual cockpit shake)
jump jets are added as an upgrade (like endo and ferro), it is all or nothing, and the jets are fixed in their canonical crit locations.
jump jets acceleration and animation are set to a level that does not confuse HSR.
jump jets provide approximately 6m of lift per JJ, allowing phenomenal spider jumps, while a 3x JJ highlander can barely clear the top of a mech for that infamous (and highly skilled) attack.
jump jets "fuel" is on a 10s cycle (like heat dissipation), JJ thrust regeneration is based on engine load (heat production) since regenerating jump jets draw directly from the engine (eg the more heat your expending the slower your jump jet refuel, an idle mech can refill from 0 fuel to full in 10 seconds).

It was quite the farce, yes. Here, finals.

[Lily from animove]

dunno, my 5 JJ's on the nova feel fine and good.

[Mechteric]

Lily from animove, on 05 August 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

dunno, my 5 JJ's on the nova feel fine and good.

funny because 6 jump jets on my griffon are terrible


ok lets separate the fine from the not fine:

- fine: using jump jets to feather falling off a cliff
- fine: using jump jets to help climb up a steep hill

- not fine: jump jets take several seconds just to lift you max height
- not fine: max height is abysmal, you can barely jump over the height of one Atlas with 6 jets (they're supposed to jet you around 1 level of height per jet, not 1 level per 6 jets)

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 05 August 2014 - 02:53 PM.