180 replies to this topic

[Bhan Zor]

Injaneer, on 06 August 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

I don't understand all the crying. I don't even own any clan mechs, and I don't really have a problem with them. Just seems to me to be a whole lot of crying over nothing.

Devs, thank you for the work. I for one was happy to see that it is supposed to be IS vs Clan today. As an IS mech pilot.

Not everyone is a masochist.

[Bhan Zor]

Centurio GER, on 07 August 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

IMO the success levels of OmniMech pilots has more to do with player discipline and skill. Dropping solo in my Daishi I won and survived each match, be it Clan vs IS or Clan vs Clan. I made the following observations on the blue Clan forces:

- noone discharged weapons during deployment
- noone stayed behind or ***** footed at the edge of the map
- everyone moved in formation to engage red
- most of the time blue kept their target locks

Taken together these factors contributed more to victory than anything else.

Guess what, there are no clan trial mechs. And nobody arriving at this game after the clan sale ended, is going to be in a clan mech. What does that mean? It means that all these people are going to be in IS mechs. Thats what it means. And what you described there, is a direct result of it - also because those putting down alot of money for clan mechs usually arent the same people who **** around in the game like Joe Random.

That said, right now Clan vs IS for PUG matches is as bad as it gets when you're limited to IS hardware unless you drop with your buddies.

[Desintegrator]

Hey great patch again - how did you know, that I was searching forever for a match ??

[Bhodi Li773]

Legendary founder here , closed beta tester here, 30+ years fan of battletech/mechwarrior. I supported the game in development bc i wanted to see it be released.During the ISvs clan test I played both sides.one match won while IS was a stomp,the clan mechs were disorganized to my surprise and readily separated and disassembled.(new players in shiny mechs).As Clan,usually the IS side was much more disorganized ,no locking targets,little focus fire and mechs all over the map.As IS most were poorly played(most IS never scored above 100 damage in matches I played).If u can't score a minimum of 100 per match your in the wrong mech or really need to get more xp under your belt.Everyone was saying "let's go get ClanStomped" , If u r talking like you've already lost, you already have accepted defeat.

If u wanted a true IS vs Clan trial should have been test server with a 12 IS vs 10 Clan over the span of a few days so all could try it out.( Let everyone try out stock Clan mechs for x amount of battles, like previous test server b4 clan mech release) This would give you good data as veterans and green players would have same mechs and battles would be directly won by tactics etc not just op mechs vs Non op mechs.

This way non clan players could see the good and bad of clan mechs.Good side clan mechs have better ranged weapons,they have better speed( at least heavies or lower do),and armor is usually maxed. Bad side they overheat easily meaning you need to switch out remove weps/take less Dps for heatsinks(only have Double sinks as clan) if u have space to not overheat and become a meat shield for IS target practice.Clan mechs have xl engines meaning u crit engine in LT CTorRT and they r dead.Clan assault r so slow battles r half over b4 they even get into the fight.(This is why most Assaults have LRMS).Some mechs have permanent case/ weps/ attached that u cant remove.(Almost ALL clan mechs have majority of weapons IN their ARMS.Target a Clan mechs arm and u will disarm him literally). Clan AC do volley damage not solid damage meaning its spread around more.So if you torso twist to distribute damage instead of stand there you will live longer and be able to fight back(.A tried and true tactic by any Mechwarrior worth his C-bills).LAST has anyone seen a Clan Mech with ECM?No bc they don't have ecm.Its considered to be Dishonorable.Meaning IS can SNEAK up on Clan Mechs to Ambush them practically at will,While Clan mechs Stand there wondering where u came from.

Clan do have a Tech advantage ,no argument , but they also have built in weaknesses to take advantage of if you play IS. 1. equip AMS on your mech( LRM advantage goes byebye)and don't stand still when missiles r incoming, they self destruct at 1000 metres ..2 Equip ECM( you cant be targeted unless enemy is within 200 metres of you or keeps you in LOS)3 TARGET THEIR ARMS.(Advanced Zoom Module is worth the C-Bills). 4 Play like an IS mechwarrior would FOCUS FIre,LOCK targets,Keep Line Of Sight(Most people shoot LRMS when THEY have a LOCK, u can dummy fire LRMS and they track to your targeting reticule if u keep los on target). Don't be surprised when u go toe to toe with a Clanner and get wasted if u don't follow these simple rules of the battlefield.

[doodlemander]

Bhodi Li773, on 07 August 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

LAST has anyone seen a Clan Mech with ECM?No bc they don't have ecm.Its considered to be Dishonorable.Meaning IS can SNEAK up on Clan Mechs to Ambush them practically at will,While Clan mechs Stand there wondering where u came from.

I'm positive I've seen Kitfoxes with ECM. So they clearly don't care about honor.
See smurfy's

Edited by doodlemander, 07 August 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[Schakar]

SilentScreamer, on 07 August 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

Schaker, you could take the Blackjack 1X instead: 8 medium lasers ( 3 on each arm and 1 in each side torso). Throw in endosteel, 17 double heat sinks and a command consule for good measure. 40 damage alpha, much closer to Nova specs. Not my kind of build though.

Then you have:
- Blackjack 1x 8*7=40 alpha @200m
- Nova Prime 12 (!!!!!) *7=84 alpha @450m (without Tcomp)
Which is more then 2 times the range AND more then 2 times the alpha!
or
- Nova 12*4 (c-er-small) = 48 alpha @200m (without Tcomp) AND 4*MG

No matter which config you sugest, the Blackjack in all it's versions will be terrible busted by a Nova if the pilots are equal skilled! Just 5 tons difference but dramaticly more power from the Nova!

PS:
As the Blackjack has a MAX center armor of 56 it is enough to get ONE ALPHA from this 12*c-er-med Nova to insta pop him @450m where the poor Blackjack might do minimal damage FAR out of optimal range .

You don't need to be a genius or any "testing" to see the freaking inblanace and OPnes of claners!
NUMBERS DON'T LIE!

Edited by Schakar, 07 August 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[OznerpaG]

Schakar, on 07 August 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Then you have:
- Blackjack 1x 8*7=40 alpha @200m
- Nova Prime 12 (!!!!!) *7=84 alpha @450m (without Tcomp)
Which is more then 2 times the range AND more then 2 times the alpha!
or
- Nova 12*4 (c-er-small) = 48 alpha @200m (without Tcomp) AND 4*MG

No matter which config you sugest, the Blackjack in all it's versions will be terrible busted by a Nova if the pilots are equal skilled! Just 5 tons difference but dramaticly more power from the Nova!

after 300 games in the BJ-1X and 50 games in the Nova i'l take the 1X every time - i think i spend more time shut down from overheating in the Nova than i do playing it

[Cavendish]

Bhodi Li773, on 07 August 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

LAST has anyone seen a Clan Mech with ECM?No bc they don't have ecm.Its considered to be Dishonorable.Meaning IS can SNEAK up on Clan Mechs to Ambush them practically at will,While Clan mechs Stand there wondering where u came from.

I am sorry, but what? What do you build this opinion on? The Clans are effective warriors, and are not always fighting ritual combat.

Would like to see some pointers to where this "Clans never use ECM and always fight standing in the open" ideas come from, seen it several times but never managed to find out where they got it from, and have never personaly seen it supported in any novels Ive read or game supplements that I own.

Edit:

Even looking at Sarna ( http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM_Suite ) I get:

In the Clans, the Guardian ECM suite was used as the basis for an improved ECM Suite. This system can be found in every Clan's touman. They weigh a single ton, and can be mounted on nearly anything

.... so to me it seems more of wishfull thinking then fact that the Clans avoided using ECM (and obviously they are not locked into "only used by Kit Fox mechs" but any pilot would be able to put one on their mech if they so chose).

Edited by Cavendish, 07 August 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[xWiredx]

I think there is a bit of merit to the arguing that clans are currently overpowered a bit, and maybe some merit in the comparisons of alpha strike damage (maybe), but in a Dire Wolf with just a 50-point alpha I've been a far more effective killing machine than anything else. In fact, as a player who typically sits in the 380-650 dmg/match range (depending on if I'm eating ice cream or not), it's the only mech I can consistently go over 800 dmg with (and the only mech I've ever hit over 1000 dmg with). The Nova Prime stock loadout runs too hot to be comparing the way people are to the Blackjack. The BJ isn't going to overheat nearly as quickly as the Nova is, which, in most matches I've been in is a precursor to certain death. You overheat and you become a lot of people's favorite target.

[Action Man]

I have taken the time to think a lot on this topic, looking at both the clans and IS mechs, taking into account all the games I played IS vs clan in pugs and organised drops. the only real deciding factor that puts the clans at an advantage is the extra range. being able to do a decent amount of damage outside even LRM range can play a huge advantage in the attrition game. add to that the original maps designed for 8v8 only exacerbates the problem. I was finding that regardless of skill, once the is mechs were getting into their effective ranges. most were already missing limbs or had exposed internals.

This is a huge difference, once the brawl fur ball begins the high armament count per mech comes more into play.
My simple thought would be to balance IS mechs to out perform clans at a close range. how this could be done exactly has a few options. from increasing IS weapon damage that falls within the 0-600m mark, or heat dissipation or efficiency or even rate of fire. but I feel keeping it simple like at ranged the Clans are strong but once in close the advantage is flipped you might have a game on your hands.

[Wildstreak]

InnerSphereNews, on 06 August 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

After thehot-fix we intend to enable Clan vs. IS matchmaking temporarily today for thepurposes of collecting balance and matchmaking data.

What does this mean exactly? We had Clan & IS in mixed teams, is this Clan only vs IS only?

[SilentScreamer]

Merchant, on 07 August 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

What does this mean exactly? We had Clan & IS in mixed teams, is this Clan only vs IS only?

This occured yesterday, it was just a short test, and has already been turned off. Basically the match maker would not mix Clan Mechs and regular mechs on the same team.

[Vermaxx]

No one can objectively say that force on force will be anything like balanced until serious changes are made - first and foremost releasing Clan mechs for CB.

(This won't even help much, because their book value costs are still going to make them unattainable for most casual players. Seriously - 18-25 million per mech unless you're settling for a light? Very few people will be grabbing one of those simply because they won't be able to afford two more for elite.)

Next, even teams will not be even. You can cite higher shutdown times of the Nova (then put some small lasers on it and stop spam firing), or the POTENTIALLY low alpha of a DW (you're still in a one hundred ton assault mech with the associated armor and ammo space)...

...but all it boils down to is this: twelve IS mechs are not equivalent to twelve Clan mechs, especially when the 3/3/3/3 ONLY exists on full premade matches.

Without CW rules in place to limit clan players in a battle, or availability, or SOMETHING...there won't be any way to keep the matches from going one sided. As this trend continues, more people will quit and more will buy Clan mechs. The disparity will never get better.

Releasing Clan mechs as a cash only option, FOR MONTHS, before any of the back end was in place was a terrible choice for the game. It is in keeping with the "more money now" philosophy however, and trend has existed since the Founder program was extended for months beyond the original time frame.

[Shaio]

xWiredx, on 07 August 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

I think there is a bit of merit to the arguing that clans are currently overpowered a bit, and maybe some merit in the comparisons of alpha strike damage (maybe), but in a Dire Wolf with just a 50-point alpha I've been a far more effective killing machine than anything else. In fact, as a player who typically sits in the 380-650 dmg/match range (depending on if I'm eating ice cream or not), it's the only mech I can consistently go over 800 dmg with (and the only mech I've ever hit over 1000 dmg with). The Nova Prime stock loadout runs too hot to be comparing the way people are to the Blackjack. The BJ isn't going to overheat nearly as quickly as the Nova is, which, in most matches I've been in is a precursor to certain death. You overheat and you become a lot of people's favorite target.

Who runs Nova Primes stock, swap eight of those Medium Lases for Small Lasers, The Medium Lasers are used for 200m+ and the Smalls for under 200m. When firing just the Small or Medium Lasers heat is not a problem. Through on four Machine Guns for when you do get hot and stand on them till you cool down.

The sad truth is that the 45 ton BJ is no match for a 50 ton Nova with the Power gauntlets of DOOM in a Laser Duel. You better off with an A/C 20 and that goes for the Hunch Back 4P too.

Edited by Shaio, 07 August 2014 - 06:09 PM.

[Ashnod]

JHackworth, on 06 August 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

I would really like to see a "tonnage battle value" (TBV) system instead of a class system.

TBV are usually 1 point for every ton. Some mechs get TBV bonuses, some get TBV value penalties. LCTs, for example might be worth 0.75x, giving drop commanders an extra 5 tons.

Clans get a TBV penalty of something 1.2x; simulating the 2 stars to 3 lances lore system.

Further, a TBV system will let teams dictate their drop deck and allow people bring more variety to the game. Currently, we only see a bias towards 'favored' mechs for each weight class--people are going to try to bring the heaviest mediums (SHDs, etc), the heaviest assaults and the heaviest lights to every game.

My thinking is that when matches are being set up drop leaders should be able to choose how wide a tonnage differential to drop against. MM can show the probability of finding a match within a minute. So, maybe the default is to drop against +/- 50 tons, but that can be adjusted with a slider to within +/- 250 TBV or something.

seems good

[Ren Kurogane]

Just want to drop this....got at least 3 matches with rubberbanding problem (played around 20 matches till today) since this hotfix.

edit: Oh...this is only for reducing 0-ping players....i forgot

Edited by Discarius, 08 August 2014 - 12:52 AM.

[Asmosis]

Shaio, on 07 August 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Who runs Nova Primes stock, swap eight of those Medium Lases for Small Lasers, The Medium Lasers are used for 200m+ and the Smalls for under 200m. When firing just the Small or Medium Lasers heat is not a problem. Through on four Machine Guns for when you do get hot and stand on them till you cool down.

The sad truth is that the 45 ton BJ is no match for a 50 ton Nova with the Power gauntlets of DOOM in a Laser Duel. You better off with an A/C 20 and that goes for the Hunch Back 4P too.

Pilot skill being even, a nova can normally take down heavy IS mechs before they can kill the nova.

It doesn't take extensive testing to determine the outcome of clan vs IS. when one side has on average 50% more DPS than the other at any given range, its pretty clear what the outcome is going to be.

[Wildstreak]

Vermaxx, on 07 August 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

No one can objectively say that force on force will be anything like balanced until serious changes are made - first and foremost releasing Clan mechs for CB.

(This won't even help much, because their book value costs are still going to make them unattainable for most casual players. Seriously - 18-25 million per mech unless you're settling for a light? Very few people will be grabbing one of those simply because they won't be able to afford two more for elite.)

Releasing Mechs for CB has been done at times for IS, believe they did it with Phoenix and they do it with Heroes before the other variants. Further, given the CB cost, some people may buy them for MC since the special sale is over, the real money cost may be cheaper based on what they get.

Games have done things for money because that is the nature of the business. Some are over the top but usually the options are reasonable.

Shaio, on 07 August 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Who runs Nova Primes stock, swap eight of those Medium Lases for Small Lasers, The Medium Lasers are used for 200m+ and the Smalls for under 200m. When firing just the Small or Medium Lasers heat is not a problem. Through on four Machine Guns for when you do get hot and stand on them till you cool down.

The sad truth is that the 45 ton BJ is no match for a 50 ton Nova with the Power gauntlets of DOOM in a Laser Duel. You better off with an A/C 20 and that goes for the Hunch Back 4P too.

I would never run a Nova Prime with all Prime pods even changing weapons unless I was challenging myself, smart players know to focus on your arms, once gone you are weaponless. i would sooner run something like this or this that provides me with torso weapons especially since the Nova is one of 3 Clan Mechs with more than 1 AMS.

[iosuu]

Welp......patch is not working as it should....now i can't get any games....i'm taken out of the queue with an error

[Enigmos]

Not only that but the match I did get into failed utterly due to ceaseless rubberbanding, until every last player but me disconnected (unless they were dead, but I would assume they also disconnected).

No mention of this repeated chronic problem have I seen from an official source. Not a peep out of anyone on the staff except recommendations to run the repair tool, even though EVERYONE IN THE MATCH is affected.

But we do have time to have even more weapons reduced in effectiveness, naturally. That deserves a patch. Everyone has their priorities, I reckon.

Has to be the fault of the client sez the network guys. Has to be the fault of the network says the client programmers. Has to be the fault of the server say the players. Everyone pointing at everyone else even though nobody but me will breath a word that there is a serious problem.

But then, I'm nobody.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 08 August 2014 - 12:40 PM.