139 replies to this topic

[_NARCoMAN_]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

Feel free to ignore their counters. I'm actually not sure if an isLRM20 gets more LRMs past 2 AMS when compared to 40 cLRMs.

I know that 25cLRMs will never get past a dual AMS mech.

Once again, nothing to do with the actual point!

10 ton LRM 20 Vs 5 Ton LRM 20


Tha'ts what the discussion is about, OP clan equipment. Feel free to keep missing the point.

[Mcgral18]

Asheron Realaidain, on 07 August 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Once again, nothing to do with the actual point!

10 ton LRM 20 Vs 5 Ton LRM 20


Tha'ts what the discussion is about, OP clan equipment. Feel free to keep missing the point.

....please tell me how many clan missiles from 40 tubes get through 2 AMS systems. Then tell my how many isLRM from 20 tubes get through.

I know dual AMS only takes about 10 from an LRM20...yet dual AMS destroys over 25 cLRMs.



Yes, please keep telling me how inefficient the Clan LRMs are.

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 August 2014 - 09:16 PM.

[_NARCoMAN_]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Yes, please keep telling my how inefficient the Clan LRMs are.

I don't know what you mean by that, but I am going to assume you don't understand what we are talking about any more.

I said Clan tech was OP.

You said No

I said yes, and here is why

You said AMS can shoot down missiles

I said that is wonderful, but what does this have to do with a weapon system that weighs half as much and has no minimum range?

Then you must have gotten lost somewhere, because you're writing almost unintelligible things about how I don't think Clan LRMs are efficient.

Let me explain with your numbers:

Quote

I know dual AMS only takes about 10 from an LRM20...yet dual AMS destroys over 25 cLRMs.

So for 10 tons of missile launcher, I can get 15 through instead of 10. Without a hard minimum range.

Keep trying, you'll get it.

[Mcgral18]

Asheron Realaidain, on 07 August 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

I don't know what you mean by that, but I am going to assume you don't understand what we are talking about any more.

I said Clan tech was OP.

You said No

I said yes, and here is why

You said AMS can shoot down missiles

I said that is wonderful, but what does this have to do with a weapon system that weighs half as much and has no minimum range?

Then you must have gotten lost somewhere, because you're writing almost unintelligible things about how I don't think Clan LRMs are efficient.

Let me explain with your numbers:



So for 10 tons of missile launcher, I can get 15 through instead of 10. Without a hard minimum range.

Keep trying, you'll get it.

Or I won't, and can avoid suffering this trolling.

[_NARCoMAN_]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

Or I won't, and can avoid suffering this trolling.

bye!

[IraqiWalker]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

Feel free to ignore their counters. I'm actually not sure if an isLRM20 gets more LRMs past 2 AMS when compared to 40 cLRMs.

I know that 25cLRMs will never get past a dual AMS mech.

There is no universe where in a clan LRM is better than the IS LRM in MW:O. Anyone that disagrees with that has no idea how to do math.

Weight savings mean nothing when none of your missiles hit your opponents.

Asheron Realaidain, on 07 August 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Once again, nothing to do with the actual point!

10 ton LRM 20 Vs 5 Ton LRM 20


Tha'ts what the discussion is about, OP clan equipment. Feel free to keep missing the point.

Sorry, but that is purely idiotic.

Of all the clan equipment to claim to be OP, you g for the one that is universally considered infinitely worse than the IS counterpart?

I would understand that if you used an energy weapon, but LRMs?

Unless you're playing against brain dead idiots, who don't have AMS, your C-LRMs will never hit their target.

I also enjoy how you ignore the dynamics of the weapon system and it's implementation, while talking about it's balance.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 August 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[_NARCoMAN_]

I disagree, and have seen massed clan LRMs totally wreck mechs with AMS. The whole point of that original discussion was that clan tech in general is OP.

Purely idiotic, stupid, playing against brain dead idiots and can't do math. Have a nice night.


Edit:

Anyone who disagrees is a potato

Edited by Asheron Realaidain, 07 August 2014 - 09:29 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Asheron Realaidain, on 07 August 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

I disagree, and have seen massed clan LRMs totally wreck mechs with AMS. The whole point of that original discussion was that clan tech in general is OP.

Purely idiotic, stupid, playing against brain dead idiots and can't do math. Have a nice night.

Yes, massed clan LRMs overwhelming 1 AMS, good job. The math is still in favor of the IS LRMs not just for the fact that AMS takes down more of them, but also because they give their target much more time to evade the salvo.

So far here's the simplest breakdown of clan tech. Bear in mind, this is using more than just flat numbers without context, so it might get tricky:

1- Clan energy weapons have longer burn times, and more heat ratios, on the upside, they are lighter and have longer ranges.

2- Clan ballistics are also DoT (Damage over Time), much like their beam weapons, and suffer greatly from that, on the upside, they are lighter, and cost a slot less on average. Overall, they are absolutely inferior to IS ACs (the ONLY ballistic weapon the clans have that is stronger than it's IS counterpart in every aspect is the Gauss rifle. Every other ballistic weapon is flat out worse than the IS ones)

3- Clan LRMs are lighter, and cost a few slots less, however, they are borderline useless because of their stream fire mechanic, which literally only works on people that simultaneously don't use AMS and cover. The IS LRMs are heavier and bulkier, but they hit like a sledgehammer as a tradeoff.

4- Clan SRMs deal less damage than IS SRMs, but they are lighter.

5- Clan SSRMs deal the same damage as IS SSRMs (at least the SSRM2), but suffer from long cycle times.


So let's tally up, of the 5 systems, the clans have an advantage in energy weapons considering they are safer at long ranges. Their ballistics are inferior, and their LRMs are inferior as well. Their SRMs and SSRMs are comparable, though.

So they have 1 advantage, 2 inferiorities, and 2 comparables (SRMs are still weaker in my opinion.)

IS takes the lead by a bit.


The problem is that most people like to poke clans, which is wrong. You're supposed to close in on them, and force them to over heat, and engage in close quarters combat. Their weakness.

[_NARCoMAN_]

IraqiWalker, on 07 August 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

Yes, massed clan LRMs overwhelming 1 AMS, good job. The math is still in favor of the IS LRMs not just for the fact that AMS takes down more of them, but also because they give their target much more time to evade the salvo.

So far here's the simplest breakdown of clan tech. Bear in mind, this is using more than just flat numbers without context, so it might get tricky:

1- Clan energy weapons have longer burn times, and more heat ratios, on the upside, they are lighter and have longer ranges.

2- Clan ballistics are also DoT (Damage over Time), much like their beam weapons, and suffer greatly from that, on the upside, they are lighter, and cost a slot less on average. Overall, they are absolutely inferior to IS ACs (the ONLY ballistic weapon the clans have that is stronger than it's IS counterpart in every aspect is the Gauss rifle. Every other ballistic weapon is flat out worse than the IS ones)

3- Clan LRMs are lighter, and cost a few slots less, however, they are borderline useless because of their stream fire mechanic, which literally only works on people that simultaneously don't use AMS and cover. The IS LRMs are heavier and bulkier, but they hit like a sledgehammer as a tradeoff.

4- Clan SRMs deal less damage than IS SRMs, but they are lighter.

5- Clan SSRMs deal the same damage as IS SSRMs (at least the SSRM2), but suffer from long cycle times.


So let's tally up, of the 5 systems, the clans have an advantage in energy weapons considering they are safer at long ranges. Their ballistics are inferior, and their LRMs are inferior as well. Their SRMs and SSRMs are comparable, though.

So they have 1 advantage, 2 inferiorities, and 2 comparables (SRMs are still weaker in my opinion.)

IS takes the lead by a bit.


The problem is that most people like to poke clans, which is wrong. You're supposed to close in on them, and force them to over heat, and engage in close quarters combat. Their weakness.

Well, all of the things you said may have some merit, but I have yet to see an Atlas that can pack 2 gauss 2 PPC. Or 6 UAC/5

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to incite you here, and you do make good points. I just disagree that the Clans are not OP, simply because you can cram so many more weapons, move faster, have a two hit knockout on XL, 2 crit DHS, 2000 round AMS ammo, and many more.

Also, Russ just posted some Clan doom on his twitter. 90% of IS vs Clan Matches were Clan rolls, and the ELO was matched. It is good to have that much evidence, but the numbers speak for themselves.

https://twitter.com/...589495349657601

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

WAY WAY WAAAAAAAYYYYYY off topic.

[IraqiWalker]

Asheron Realaidain, on 07 August 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Well, all of the things you said may have some merit, but I have yet to see an Atlas that can pack 2 gauss 2 PPC. Or 6 UAC/5

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to incite you here, and you do make good points. I just disagree that the Clans are not OP, simply because you can cram so many more weapons, move faster, have a two hit knockout on XL, 2 crit DHS, 2000 round AMS ammo, and many more.

Also, Russ just posted some Clan doom on his twitter. 90% of IS vs Clan Matches were Clan rolls, and the ELO was matched. It is good to have that much evidence, but the numbers speak for themselves.

https://twitter.com/...589495349657601

Honestly the AMS ammo is the one that has baffled me the most, I still don't get why it has 2000 rounds, does it shoot twice as fast for half the damage per bullet???

The numbers are a bit on the surprising side. I expected them to be around 65-70%, not 90%. That would make some sense considering the the average skill of a good chunk of the player base is below that of an amoeba sometimes, but 90% means even the decent/good players are having serious problems.

I guess I've been lucky.

[Sprouticus]

Asheron Realaidain, on 07 August 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Well, all of the things you said may have some merit, but I have yet to see an Atlas that can pack 2 gauss 2 PPC. Or 6 UAC/5

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to incite you here, and you do make good points. I just disagree that the Clans are not OP, simply because you can cram so many more weapons, move faster, have a two hit knockout on XL, 2 crit DHS, 2000 round AMS ammo, and many more.

Also, Russ just posted some Clan doom on his twitter. 90% of IS vs Clan Matches were Clan rolls, and the ELO was matched. It is good to have that much evidence, but the numbers speak for themselves.

https://twitter.com/...589495349657601

Fair enough. I still think the cLRM's are not all that great, but there is an argument that they are WAY better than Is when AMS is not involved and way worse when it is. Which makes balancing much harder. Better option would be to match the flight path and make the cooldown longer IMO. Similar to the steaks.

As for the twitter post, I am all for a full clan review. It is long overdue IMO.

The ERLLL nerf is another story.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

Or just adjust the tactics. Dont leave your AMS friends or die. Simple really. They are meant to be different, ones clan, ones IS. I would hate to play a vanilla game where everything was the same! Play as a lance and HELLO... you'll have an AMS or 2 in your team to avoid you getting rightly bombed back into the stoneage. Play alone and either hug cover like I do or die in a rainstorm of LRMS. The weapons are that OP its the mentality and stupidity and lack of creativity of the players that needs addressing. Although perhaps eventually those players will give up and leave, then the fights will get harder and more fun.

And the cER PPC and cERLL nerf is actually good. I exclusively use both and think its a good plan. I'll just have to adjust how I fight.

At the end of that test perhaps they will have the evidence they need to show that it would be safe to allow 12 IS machines to fight 10 clan machines as well.

It was one day out of your life, relax and wait and see.

[Mcgral18]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

Honestly the AMS ammo is the one that has baffled me the most, I still don't get why it has 2000 rounds, does it shoot twice as fast for half the damage per bullet???

TT holdover. 12 uses for IS, 24 for Clans.

http://www.sarna.net..._missile_system

[IraqiWalker]

Mcgral18, on 08 August 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

TT holdover. 12 uses for IS, 24 for Clans.

http://www.sarna.net..._missile_system

Right. Forgot about that. (Most of the clans I faced usually had LAMS on them)

Sprouticus, on 08 August 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

Fair enough. I still think the cLRM's are not all that great, but there is an argument that they are WAY better than Is when AMS is not involved and way worse when it is. Which makes balancing much harder. Better option would be to match the flight path and make the cooldown longer IMO. Similar to the steaks.

As for the twitter post, I am all for a full clan review. It is long overdue IMO.

The ERLLL nerf is another story.

The clan review should not have happened until February, by that point everyone that wanted clan mechs for C-Bills would have had a few, and better balance decisions could be made.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

The clan review should not have happened until February, by that point everyone that wanted clan mechs for C-Bills would have had a few, and better balance decisions could be made.

Unfortunately, the whiners and criers have made it intolerable for PGI to ignore the nerf demands so they have no doubt brought it in early to shut the screamers up alittle

Edited by Keira_NZ, 08 August 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Keira_NZ, on 08 August 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

Unfortunately, the whiners and criers have made it intolerable for PGI to ignore the nerf demands so they have no doubt brought it in early to shut the screamers up alittle

I don't get how a team game should be balanced around solo play. Especially when it's idiotic solo play.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

thats ok... those victims dont get why there are 11 other players apparently called team mates.

[Sprouticus]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Right. Forgot about that. (Most of the clans I faced usually had LAMS on them)



The clan review should not have happened until February, by that point everyone that wanted clan mechs for C-Bills would have had a few, and better balance decisions could be made.

No, because everyone would have accused PGI of rewarding the paying players with P2W and to 'force' people to play. It would have been a terrible move on their part. You did not pay to have OP weapons and mechs.

Balance is an ongoing thing. If you dont like that PGI does so regardless of the status of the mechs, dont buy them until they are balanced.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I wonder how bad the stomps would have been if the test was made before they had time to elite them.

Friend let me play one of his mechs set up like one of mine. No basics and no modules. Gods what a difference in my performance that was.